a button dilemma

[BasketCase]

and I know you've read Fifty's thread.

Nope. Don't think I did. I think somebody tried to quote me the relevant part, something along the lines of "ignoring a hypothetical makes you look stupid" or some such--and I say that's malarkey.

And no, I wasn't ignoring the hypothetical here. If I "knew" that some kid had a 48% chance of running some old lady over while driving drunk, I would have serious doubts that I was actually experiencing clairvoyant vision; if it's less reliable than a coin flip, there's really not any point in having it. So I might as well just push any old button.

Now, if I could actually see myself pushing a particular button in the future?? Then I'd really want to push the other one instead just to see what happens. If I succeed, it's proof one's future is not set, and that's something worth knowing! On the other hand, if the resulting temporal paradox causes the universe to explode? Well, then, I wouldn't be around to see the explosion.

 

[dIZZyBlIZZy]

If I kill the red woman, how can the blue boy hit her with his car? If I kill the blue boy, he'll never drive his car. Thus, the woman can never be killed by the boy.

I smell a paradox.

What's in it for them?

Clear conscious?

 

[Winston Hughes]

Clear conscious?

Ah, so these aliens are only passing on the responsibility for resolving this dilemma, which has been imposed on them by another group of aliens who are even more powerful...

So what's in it for those latter aliens, then?

 

[dIZZyBlIZZy]

Ah, so these aliens are only passing on the responsibility for resolving this dilemma, which has been imposed on them by another group of aliens who are even more powerful...

So what's in it for those latter aliens, then?

My mistake, I thought you meant the humans, but we can work out that scenario too. As for why the aliens would do it, hmmm, I couldn't see any reason other than a practical joke, unless this somehow helps the invasion plan.

 

[Mise]

An experiment in moral philosophy, of course. They are scientists, trying to discover moral truths.

Sent from a phone, apols for any mistakes.

 

[El_Machinae]

I predict that if we interviewed both potential victims, they'd both request that the old lady be killed. The lady, especially, seems like she'd be willing to die early in order to create a chance to cure the common cold.

 

[Rashiminos]

What's in it for them?

Just what I said. Hand someone a 'dilemma' and have them worry about it.

Clear conscious?

Quite the opposite. They intend to sully someone's conscience.

Nope. Don't think I did. I think somebody tried to quote me the relevant part, something along the lines of "ignoring a hypothetical makes you look stupid" or some such--and I say that's malarkey.

For the purposes of this hypothetical, the 'Law of pushing a button' is at least equally rigorous to the 'Law of Entropy'. That's what that comment referred to. If you're ignoring a stipulation, you're not engaging the hypothetical in any meaningful way. There's a lot of room to lambast this one, but that room does not involve 'not pushing a button.'

On a separate note: If you saw all possible futures of a person, would that not be clairvoyance in your opinion?

 

[Silurian]

If I kill the red woman, how can the blue boy hit her with his car? If I kill the blue boy, he'll never drive his car. Thus, the woman can never be killed by the boy.

It all depends how long after the button is pressed that the person dies.

The OP does not say how soon the two people will die after you have pressed the button.

If you press the blue button to kill the boy he could still run over the women and then be killed a year latter by the aliens.

 

[Ice_Tyrant]

I suppose I would go for the red.

 

[IAM]

kill the woman

 

[BasketCase]

They are scientists, trying to discover moral truths.

This doesn't really fall within the realm of science; all the aliens discover is the subject's perception of morality--which is different for just about everybody.

For the purposes of this hypothetical, the 'Law of pushing a button' is at least equally rigorous to the 'Law of Entropy'. That's what that comment referred to. If you're ignoring a stipulation, you're not engaging the hypothetical in any meaningful way.

This is how I approach hypotheticals: with skepticism. When confronted with a situation that seems wierd, contrived, too good to be true, or whichever, I immediately suspect foul play right off the bat. That's the reason I never get taken in by all those Nigerian princes (Niger certainly has a lot of princes lately, doesn't it? ) who say they need to move money out of a bank. When I'm confronted by a world leader who is a religious nut and is threatening a nation that has a hundred times his military strength, it's clear to me there's something screwball going on. The dude is acting like a complete idiot, so it's almost certain he has a motive that is not what it appears. And when aliens contrive a situation where a person is forced to kill somebody, there's obviously hijinks going on here as well. Why experiment on us instead of themselves? Why learn about our moral limitations? Could be a prelude to an invasion, in which case the best choice is to give them as little information as possible.

Further: the victim who is being "forced" to choose who to kill in this hypothetical, can't really be forced. I could simply look at my watch; if the second hand is on an odd number, I push red, and if the second hand is on an even number, I push blue. So I'm not choosing to kill anybody; it's entirely random, and the fault for the murder lies on the alien dirtbag who fired the mind ray. (If I don't have a watch, I know other ways to come up with a random number--the 3x+1 problem is a good one)

Random side note: when one is in a (hypothetical or not) situation where one is being forced to kill somebody, isn't there a moral imperative to try and find a way out of a choice one should not be forced to make....?

On a separate note: If you saw all possible futures of a person, would that not be clairvoyance in your opinion?

Then how would I know the difference between clairvoyance and a fertile imagination? I can already see many possible futures for things, even though I'm pretty sure I'm not clairvoyant. For one, I can see your possible futures. After you read this post, either you'll write something disagreeing with me; or you'll write something along the lines of "oh, yeah, that makes sense"; or you won't reply to me at all. In any case, you'll experience the desire to do something not on the list in order to spite my prediction. DizzyBlizzy had some fun with that earlier on.

Obama might win in November, or (more likely) he'll lose to Romney, or (less likely) he'll lose to Santorum.

Iran is pretty likely to get hit with airstrikes very soon, but it's also likely to go nuclear because other nations are being cowards and are not willing to deal with the problem. Global warming could destroy the planet, or do absolutely nothing significant, or turn out to be beneficial, or (most likely) cause a random hodgepodge of good and bad things.

Was any of the above stuff clairvoyance on my part? Nope. It was simply the active imagination of somebody who has too much free time on his hands.......

 

[Winston Hughes]

This doesn't really fall within the realm of science; all the aliens discover is the subject's perception of morality

Ah, this makes sense. They want to know how humans think, so they can more easily manipulate us to their own ends.

So, assuming we'd rather not be enslaved by aliens, the best move is to press whichever button will give them an inaccurate view of our thought processes. And since most people answer 'red', pressing the blue button would seem to be our smartest move here.

Just what I said. Hand someone a 'dilemma' and have them worry about it.

Hmm... So you're saying that advanced technology has eliminated all want and suffering from the aliens' lives, creating a spiritual and moral vacuum, which drives them to seek vicarious experience of tragedy by putting lesser species into ethically troublesome situations? Interesting hypothesis.

 

[Perfection]

I stick with the following adage:

When in doubt, press the big red button.

Serves me well.

 

[BasketCase]

Ah, this makes sense. They want to know how humans think, so they can more easily manipulate us to their own ends.

So, assuming we'd rather not be enslaved by aliens, the best move is to press whichever button will give them an inaccurate view of our thought processes. And since most people answer 'red', pressing the blue button would seem to be our smartest move here.

Here we get into a bit of second-guessing. If the aliens guess in advance that humans are going to intentionally deceive by pressing the blue button, the we need to fool them by actually pressing the red button, or perhaps triple-guess them by actually-actually pressing the blue button when we meant to actually be pressing the red one instead of the blue one......

Wait. I think I got that last part backwards. Oh well, if it confuses me, it'll confuse the aliens. Aaaaaanyway:

The best approach is to press a button at random. If you don't have a randomizing device such as a coin or a watch handy (or, better, if you want to avoid revealing to the aliens that you're choosing a random button!) do this: pick any number off the top of your head. Then start doing the 3x+1 problem: if your number is even, divide it by two; if it's odd, triple it and add one. Then repeat with whatever result you get. While doing this, keep track of the number of times you have to repeat it until you finally get down to 1. If it takes an even number of steps, press the red button. If it takes an odd number of steps, press the blue one. Yes, it's deterministic, but you won't be able to predict the result without actually doing it, so you can get a random odd-or-even result, while appearing to be doing nothing more than ponder the puzzle of which button to push.

HA! Take that, aliens!

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Have you been watching SAW or something?

 

[BasketCase]

I quit after the first two films, actually. Thumbs-down for the entire series.

It's just that the OP didn't specify why the aliens contrived this whole button-pushing experiment, so I decided to guess at their motive.