A case for forum members easing up on 2K a bit

[Zoolooman]

You moderate a population of trolls. It's no wonder then that you have a very different member base to what civfanatics does. Moderation is quite heavy here (by comparison!) yet you seem to be arguing that people are more trollish here. I wouldn't feel comfortable posting a legitimate complaint about software on a forum where I knew hundreds of trolls would jump on my back, flinging flames and whatever else.

I was being facetious and modest, playing to a stereotype about the website. Our Civ threads are very calm and contain almost zero trolling.

As for the rest of your questions, I didn't quote them because others already answered them. SA is humongous. We have gamers of every stripe--just not that many who aren't excited by Steam.

Honestly, it's the weekend and midweek deals that sell the service. Instant dirt cheap games are an easy sale.

 

[Isikien]

Whichever way you look at it, it's happening. This isn't EA DRM gentlemen, this is Steamworks, and Steam has a pretty good reputation with easy access. And yes you can set steam to offline, I do it all the time if I plan to play Civ on my laptop outside of the home.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I was being facetious and modest, playing to a stereotype about the website. Our Civ threads are very calm and contain almost zero trolling.

As for the rest of your questions, I didn't quote them because others already answered them. SA is humongous. We have gamers of every stripe--just not that many who aren't excited by Steam.

Honestly, it's the weekend and midweek deals that sell the service. Instant dirt cheap games are an easy sale.

From what I've seen, the regular sales rarely make the game dirt cheap but instead just closer to the usual going price. Typically the only games dirt cheap on steam are either already cheap (e.g. a lot of indie games) or already fairly old and only selling for small profit margins anyway. I've presented to the forum a few examples where even 50% or 75% sales were hardly impressive, but by now people are probably tired of my comparisons. I'd argue Steam/Valve have a good ability convincing people their sales make the games dirt cheap. Whether or not they are actually dirt cheap appears to be irrelevant to some people.

I did a quick check on a couple of the EA games for sale last week, for example, and didn't find their sales to make the game dirt cheap. As I said, they were just closer or barely beat the usual going rate. I should add finally that there is nothing wrong with this. It is Steam's chosen strategy and it obviously works, so kudos to them.

 

[Greybriar]

Steam's site is blocked where I'm at - does it invalidate anything in my post? (just curious)

Since you are unable to view it at Steam's site, I will post the Steam Subscriber Agreement here:

Spoiler :

STEAM™ SUBSCRIBER AGREEMENT

This Steam Subscriber Agreement ("Agreement") is a legal document that explains your rights and obligations as a Subscriber. Please read it carefully.

1. REGISTRATION AND ACTIVATION.

Steam is an online service ("Steam") offered by Valve Corporation ("Valve").

You become a subscriber of Steam ("Subscriber") by installing the Steam client software and completing the Steam registration. Additionally, as a Subscriber you may obtain access to certain services, software and content ("Subscriptions") available to Subscribers. Conclusion of this contract between Valve and you takes place as soon as you access the Steam service after accepting this Agreement.

Unless you are a Licensed Cybercafe Operator (as defined below), this Agreement does not allow you to exploit the Steam Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose including, but not limited to, use at a Cybercafe, computer gaming center or any other location-based site. A "Cybercafe" is a physical establishment in which computer stations are made available for use by customers. A "Licensed Cybercafe Operator" is a Cybercafe that has agreed to the Subscription Terms for Licensed Cybercafe Operators posted at http://store.steampowered.com/cybercafe_agreement/.

Each Subscription allows you access to certain services, software and other content under the terms of each such Subscription and this Agreement. Additional terms provided with each such Subscription ("Subscription Terms") may apply to the use of a given Subscription, and are incorporated into this Agreement. Further, additional terms (for example, fees and billing procedures) may be posted on http://www.steampowered.com or within the Steam service ("Rules of Use"), and are incorporated into this Agreement. As a Subscriber, you agree to all of the terms and conditions of the Valve Privacy Policy, which are also incorporated into this Agreement. A copy of the Valve Privacy Policy can be found at http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.htm.

When you complete Steam's registration process, you create a Steam account ("Account"). Your Account may also include billing information you provide to us for the purchase of Subscriptions. You are solely responsible for all activity on your Account and for the security of your computer system. You may not reveal, share or otherwise allow others to use your password or Account. You agree that you are personally responsible for the use of your password and Account and for all of the communication and activity on Steam that results from use of your login name and password. You may not sell or charge others for the right to use your Account, or otherwise transfer your Account.

2. LICENSES

A. License Terms.

Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of software and other content and updates onto your computer ("Steam Software"). You may not use Steam Software for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions. You understand that for reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Steam may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions or otherwise enhance the Steam Software and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Steam Software may change over time. You understand that neither this Agreement nor the terms associated with a particular Subscription entitles you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Steam Software associated with a particular Subscription although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion.

Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Steam Software for your personal use in accordance with this Agreement and the Subscription Terms. The Steam Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Steam Software.

Additionally, Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license (the �Installer License&#65533 to reproduce and distribute an unlimited number of exact copies of the Steam client installation software ("Steam Installer") via online download; provided that the following conditions are met:

(i) you must redistribute the Steam Installer in its entirety;
(ii) you must not modify the Steam Installer in any way nor integrate or combine it with another software program;
(iii) you must redistribute the Steam Installer on a non-commercial basis (i.e. you may not charge any fee or receive any compensation for your redistribution);
(iv) you must include any Valve license agreement provided with the Steam Installer; and
(v) you must preserve in all copies of the Steam Installer all copyright and legal notices that are attached to the copy of the Steam Installer received by you.

B. Beta Software Terms

Valve may from time to time make software accessible to you via Steam prior to the general commercial release of such software ("Beta Software"). You are not required to use Beta Software, but if Valve offers it, you may elect to use it under the following terms. Beta Software will be deemed to be Steam Software, and each item of Beta Software provided will be deemed a Subscription for such Beta Software, with the following provisions specific to Beta Software:

(i) your right to use the Beta Software license is effective until the earlier of: (a) Valve ceases to make the Beta Software accessible to you; (b) Valve issues a final release of the software that corresponds to the Beta Software; or (c) termination by Valve pursuant to Section 13 below;
(ii) certain Beta Software may be made available to you subject to additional Subscription Terms to which you must agree as a condition of use of the Beta Software;
(iii) Valve may request or require that you provide suggestions, feedback, or data regarding your use of the Beta Software, which will be deemed User Generated Information under Section 7 below; and
(iv) in addition to the waivers and limitations of liability for all Steam Software under Section 9 below, you specifically acknowledge that Beta Software is not final and may create incompatibilities or damage to your computer, data, and/or software. If you decide to install and/or use Beta Software, it is entirely at your own risk.

C. Source SDK.

Your Subscription(s) may contain access to the Valve software development kit (the "SDK") for the computer game engine used in Half-Life 2 and other compatible Valve products (the "Source Engine"). You may use, reproduce and modify the SDK on a non-commercial basis solely to develop a modified game (a "Mod") for Half-Life 2 or other Valve products compatible with and using the Source Engine. You may reproduce and distribute the Mod in object code form, solely to licensed end users of Half-Life 2 or other compatible Valve products, provided that the Mod is made publicly available and distributed without charge on a non-commercial basis

If you would like to use the Source SDK or a Mod for a commercial purpose or activity, please contact Valve at sourceengine@valvesoftware.com.

D. Ownership.

All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Steam Software and any and all copies thereof are owned by Valve and/or its licensors. All rights reserved, except as expressly stated herein. The Steam Software is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. The Steam Software contains certain licensed materials and Valve's licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.

E. Restrictions.

Except as otherwise permitted under Section 2(C) with regard to the SDK, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on, or remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Steam Software or any software accessed via Steam without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve.

You are entitled to use the Steam Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Steam Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Steam Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve; (ii) host or provide matchmaking services for the Steam Software or emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Valve in any network feature of the Steam Software, through protocol emulation, tunneling, modifying or adding components to the Steam Software, use of a utility program or any other techniques now known or hereafter developed, for any purpose including, but not limited to network play over the Internet, network play utilizing commercial or non-commercial gaming networks or as part of content aggregation networks, without the prior written consent of Valve; or (iii) exploit the Steam Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose.

3. MERCHANDISE

A. General.

Valve may from time to time offer items other than software content and services for purchase via Steam (e.g., apparel, books, posters, etc.) ("Merchandise"). Valve may offer Merchandise together with or separate from Subscriptions, but such Merchandise is incidental to Subscriptions and the predominant purpose of Steam is and shall remain the provision of Subscriptions and services related thereto. All offers to purchase Merchandise via Steam are made and accepted subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement. Your communications with Valve or submission of any purchase order or other similar forms containing provisions contrary to the terms of this Agreement or the terms presented by Valve during purchase of Merchandise via Steam are hereby rejected and are not binding on Valve.

B. Shipping & Risk of Loss

This is a shipment contract. All Merchandise will be shipped FOB Blaine, Washington, unless Valve designates otherwise on Steam in connection with a particular order. If you are an international customer, you acknowledge that Merchandise will be shipped from the United States and that you are responsible for any applicable import duties, customs fees, and taxes. Valve's liability as to delivery ceases, and title and risk of loss for the Merchandise will pass upon Valve's delivery of the Merchandise to a transportation carrier at the designated shipping point. If you pick up the Merchandise from Valve's place of business, title to and risk of loss will pass to you when Merchandise is placed at your disposal.

C. Acceptance/Rejection/Returns

The terms of this Section 3.C do not apply to European Union consumers. You will have a period of thirty (30) days after the date of receipt of any Merchandise to examine the Merchandise to confirm that it conforms to this Agreement and the offer for such Merchandise presented to you at Steam. If the Merchandise does not conform to this Agreement and the offer for such Merchandise presented to you via Steam, you may reject the Merchandise by returning it to Valve (at your expense) along with a copy of the receipt or other proof of purchase. Additional policies and instructions for returning defective merchandise to Valve can be found at http://storehelp.valvesoftware.com. After Valve has received your valid return, Valve will, within a reasonable time and in Valve's sole discretion: repair the Merchandise, replace the Merchandise with an equivalent item, credit to the credit card used to pay for the product an amount equal to the value of the Merchandise (as determined by Valve in its reasonable discretion), or provide another remedy that Valve determines in good faith is appropriate in the circumstances. All claims whether based on contract, negligence, strict liability or otherwise are waived unless made in writing and received by Valve within thirty (30) days after your receipt of Merchandise.

4. BILLING, PAYMENT AND OTHER SUBSCRIPTIONS

Valve offers some Subscriptions for free, and some for a Subscription fee. All fees are stated in U.S. dollars unless otherwise specified.

A. Payment by Credit Card.

When you provide credit card information to Valve, you represent to Valve that you are the authorized user of the credit card that is used to pay for Merchandise or Subscription or other fees and authorize Valve to charge your credit card for any Merchandise or Subscription or other fees incurred by you. For recurring monthly Subscriptions, each month that you use such Subscription(s), you agree and reaffirm that Valve is authorized to charge your credit card for the Subscription fee. You agree to notify Valve promptly of any changes to your credit card account number, its expiration date and/or your billing address, and you agree to notify Valve promptly if your credit card expires or is canceled for any reason.

B. Charges to Your Credit Card.

ALL STEAM FEES ARE PAYABLE IN ADVANCE AND ARE NOT REFUNDABLE IN WHOLE OR IN PART. Valve reserves the right to change our fees or billing methods at any time and Valve will provide notice of any such change at least thirty (30) days advance. All changes will be posted as amendments to this Agreement or in the Rules of Use and you are responsible for reviewing the billing section of Steam to obtain timely notice of such changes. Your non-cancellation of your Account or an affected Subscription thirty (30) days after posting of the changes on Steam means that you accept such changes. If any change is unacceptable to you, you may cancel your Account or a particular Subscription at any time as described below, but Valve will not refund any fees that may have accrued to your Account before cancellation of your Account or Subscription, and Valve will not prorate fees for any cancellation. If your use of Steam is subject to any type of use or sales tax, then Valve may also charge you for any such taxes, in addition to the Subscription or other fees published in the Rules of Use. The European Union VAT (�VAT&#65533 tax amounts collected by Valve reflect VAT due on the value of any Steam Software or Subscription as well as import VAT collected which is to be paid to the tax authorities for the importation of Merchandise.

As the Account holder, you are responsible for all charges incurred, including applicable taxes, and all purchases made by you or anyone that uses your Account, including your family or friends. Information on how to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription can be found at http://www.steampowered.com/. Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred before you cancel your Account or a particular Subscription. In the event that your Account or a particular subscription is terminated or canceled, no refund, including any Subscription fees, will be granted. Any delinquent or unpaid Accounts must be settled before Valve will allow you to register again.

C. Retail Purchase.

Valve may offer or require a Subscription for purchasers of retail packaged product versions or OEM versions of Valve products. The "CD-Key" or "Product Key" accompanying such versions is used to activate your Subscription.

D. Steam Authorized Resellers.

You may purchase a Subscription through an authorized reseller of Valve. The "Product Key" accompanying such purchase will be used to activate your Subscription. If you purchase a Subscription from an authorized reseller of Valve, you agree to direct all questions regarding the Product Key to that reseller.

E. Free Subscriptions.

In some cases, Valve may offer a free Subscription to certain services, software and content. As with all Subscriptions, you are always responsible for any Internet service provider, telephone, and other connection fees that you may incur when using Steam, even when Valve offers a free Subscription.

F. Third Party Sites.

Steam may provide links to other third party sites. Some of these sites may charge separate fees, which are not included in and are in addition to any Subscription or other fees that you may pay to Valve. Steam may also provide access to third-party vendors, who provide content, goods and/or services on Steam or the Internet. Any separate charges or obligations you incur in your dealings with these third parties are your responsibility. Valve makes no representations or warranties, either express or implied, regarding any such third party site.

G. Pricing and Payment for Merchandise.

In addition to the above, the following terms apply to pricing of and payment for Merchandise. The prices for Merchandise displayed on Steam are subject to change at any time without notice. Charges for shipping, handling and tax may not be included in displayed prices for Merchandise but will be displayed during the purchase process, although such displayed prices may not include all taxes, duties, and other fees that you may be obligated to pay to applicable government authorities. Shipping and handling charges displayed on Steam may or may not reflect the actual charges paid by Valve. All war-risk, marine, or other insurance; harbor charges; tolls; wharfage; demurrage; wharf handling; duties, or warehousing charges are excluded from Merchandise prices displayed on Steam and are your responsibility. You may be obligated under applicable local law to pay additional import duties and fees.

You must pay all applicable sales and use taxes, value added taxes and other taxes levied on you by any taxing authority on any Merchandise purchase in any country where such transactions are otherwise subject to tax, regardless of the method of delivery. Any taxes owed by you (i) as a result of purchasing Merchandise or the payment of any fee, (ii) that are required or permitted to be collected from you by Valve under applicable law, and (iii) that are based upon the amounts payable under this Agreement, must be remitted by you to Valve. Failure on Valve's part to invoice you for any such taxes does not relieve you of the liability to pay such taxes. You will promptly reimburse Valve for all taxes or other charges imposed upon Valve by any national, state or municipal government upon the sale, use, production, or transportation of Merchandise.

5. ONLINE CONDUCT, CHEATING AND ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR

You agree that you will be personally responsible for the use of your Account and for all of the communication and activity on Steam that results from use of your Account. Your online conduct and interaction with other subscribers should be guided by common sense and basic etiquette. Specific requirements may also be found in the Steam Online Conduct rules at http://steampowered.com/index.php?area=online_conduct, other Rules of Use, the Subscription Terms, or in terms of use required by third parties who host particular games or other services.

Steam and the Steam Software may include functionality designed to identify software or hardware processes or functionality that may give a player an unfair competitive advantage when playing multiplayer versions of any Steam Software, other Valve products, or modifications thereof ("Cheats"). You agree that you will not create or assist third parties in any way to create Cheats. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly disable, circumvent, or otherwise interfere with the operation of software designed to prevent or report the use of Cheats. You acknowledge and agree that either Valve or any online multiplayer host may refuse to allow you to participate in certain online multiplayer games if you use Cheats in connection with Steam or the Steam Software. Further, you acknowledge and agree that an online multiplayer host may report your use of Cheats to Valve, and Valve may communicate your history of use of Cheats to other online multiplayer hosts for Valve products. Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account, but it may choose to do so.

6. THIRD PARTY CONTENT

"Third Party Content" means software and other content provided by third parties, other than Valve, that is designed to work in conjunction with the Steam Software (e.g. mods of Valve game products). In regard to all Third Party Content, Valve acts merely as an intermediary service provider. Valve does not screen Third Party Content available on Steam or through other sources. Valve does not assume any responsibility or liability for Third Party Content.

7. USER GENERATED INFORMATION

"User Generated Information" means any information made available to other users through your use of multi-user features of Steam or to Valve through your use of the Steam Software. User Generated Information may include, but is not limited to, chat, forum posts, screen names, game selections, player performances, usage data, suggestions about Valve products or services, and error notifications. Subject to the Valve privacy policy referenced in Section 1 above, as applicable, you expressly grant Valve the complete and irrevocable right to use, reproduce, modify, create derivative works from, distribute, transmit, broadcast, and otherwise communicate, and publicly display and perform the User Generated Information and derivative works thereof in any form, anywhere, with or without attribution to you, and without any notice or compensation to you of any kind.

8. DEDICATED SERVER

Your Subscription(s) may contain access to the Valve Dedicated Server software. You may use the Valve Dedicated Server software on an unlimited number of computers for the purpose of hosting online multiplayer games of Valve products. If you wish to operate the Valve Dedicated Server software, you will be solely responsible for procuring any Internet access, bandwidth, or hardware for such activities and will bear all costs associated therewith.

[more]

Moderator Action: Spoilered the long posts.

 

[Greybriar]

(Remainder of the Steam Subscriber Agreement):

Spoiler :

9. DISCLAIMERS; LIMITATION OF LIABILITY; NO GUARANTEES

A. DISCLAIMERS.

THE ENTIRE RISK ARISING OUT OF USE OR PERFORMANCE OF STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, AND MERCHANDISE REMAINS WITH YOU, THE USER. VALVE EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS (I) ANY WARRANTY FOR STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, AND THE MERCHANDISE, AND (II) ANY COMMON LAW DUTIES WITH REGARD TO STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, AND THE MERCHANDISE, INCLUDING DUTIES OF LACK OF NEGLIGENCE AND LACK OF WORKMANLIKE EFFORT. STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, THE MERCHANDISE, AND ANY INFORMATION AVAILABLE IN CONNECTION THEREWITH ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS, "WITH ALL FAULTS" AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NONINFRINGEMENT. ANY WARRANTY AGAINST INFRINGEMENT THAT MAY BE PROVIDED IN SECTION 2-312(3) OF THE UNIFORM COMMERCIAL CODE AND/OR IN ANY OTHER COMPARABLE STATE STATUTE IS EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMED. ALSO, THERE IS NO WARRANTY OF TITLE, INTERFERENCE WITH YOUR ENJOYMENT, OR AUTHORITY IN CONNECTION WITH STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, MERCHANDISE OR INFORMATION AVAILABLE IN CONNECTION THEREWITH. THIS SECTION WILL APPLY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW.

B. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.

NEITHER VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, NOR THEIR AFFILIATES SHALL BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND RESULTING FROM THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT, YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS AND THE STEAM SOFTWARE INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE, COMPUTER FAILURE OR MALFUNCTION, OR ANY AND ALL OTHER COMMERCIAL DAMAGES OR LOSSES. IN NO EVENT WILL VALVE BE LIABLE FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL, SPECIAL, PUNITIVE, EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, OR ANY OTHER DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF OR IN ANY WAY CONNECTED WITH STEAM, STEAM SOFTWARE, MERCHANDISE THAT YOU ACQUIRE VIA STEAM, ANY INFORMATION AVAILABLE IN CONNECTION THEREWITH, OR THE DELAY OR INABILITY TO USE MERCHANDISE OR ANY INFORMATION, EVEN IN THE EVENT OF FAULT, TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE), STRICT LIABILITY, BREACH OF CONTRACT, OR BREACH OF VALVE'S WARRANTY AND EVEN IF VALVE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. THESE LIMITATIONS AND EXCLUSIONS REGARDING DAMAGES APPLY EVEN IF ANY REMEDY FAILS.

IF YOU ARE A RESIDENT OF A EUROPEAN UNION COUNTRY, THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU.

C. NO GUARANTEES.

VALVE DOES NOT GUARANTEE CONTINUOUS, ERROR-FREE, VIRUS-FREE OR SECURE OPERATION AND ACCESS TO STEAM, THE STEAM SOFTWARE, YOUR ACCOUNT AND/OR YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS(S).

10. EXCLUSIVE REMEDIES

A. EXCLUSIVE REMEDY -- STEAM AND STEAM SOFTWARE.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH VALVE WITH REGARD TO STEAM OR THE STEAM SOFTWARE IS TO DISCONTINUE USE OF STEAM AND CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT. BECAUSE SOME STATES OR JURISDICTIONS DO NOT ALLOW THE EXCLUSION OR THE LIMITATION OF LIABILITY FOR CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, IN SUCH STATES OR JURISDICTIONS, VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, AND THEIR AFFILIATES LIABILITY SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE FULL EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW.

B. EXCLUSIVE REMEDY--MERCHANDISE.

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT WITH REGARD TO ANY MERCHANDISE YOU PURCHASE VIA STEAM AS YOUR EXCLUSIVE REMEDY, IN ADDITION TO THE REMEDIES EXPRESSLY SET FORTH IN SECTION 3(C), VALVE MAY INCLUDE IN ITS OPTION THE RIGHT TO PAY TO YOU THE AMOUNT OF DIRECT DAMAGES ACTUALLY INCURRED BY YOU IN REASONABLE RELIANCE ON SUCH MERCHANDISE, AS LONG AS THAT AMOUNT DOES NOT EXCEED THE AMOUNT YOU PAID VALVE FOR THE MERCHANDISE GIVING RISE TO THOSE DAMAGES.

THIS SECTION WILL APPLY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW.

11. INDEMNIFICATION

You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Valve, its licensors and their affiliates from all liabilities, claims and expenses, including attorneys' fees, that arise from or in connection with breach of this Agreement, use of Steam or any Subscription, or any User Generated Information or Third Party Content, including, but not limited to, the creation, distribution, promotion and use of any Mods, by you or any person(s) using your Account. Valve reserves the right, at its own expense, to assume the exclusive defense and control of any matter otherwise subject to indemnification by you. In that event, you shall have no further obligation to provide indemnification to Valve in that matter. This Section regarding Indemnification shall survive termination of this Agreement.

12. AMENDMENTS TO THIS AGREEMENT

Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion. As a Subscriber, you agree that Valve may amend the terms of this Agreement. If Valve amends the Agreement, such amendment shall be effective thirty (30) days after your receiving notice of the amended Agreement, either via e-mail or as a notification within the Steam Software. You can view the Agreement at any time at http://www.steampowered.com/. Your failure to cancel your Account thirty (30) days after receiving notification of an amended Agreement will mean that you accept all such amendments. If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription.

13. TERM AND TERMINATION

Either you or Valve has the right to terminate or cancel your Account or a particular Subscription at any time. You understand and agree that the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription is your sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute with Valve.

A. Term.

The term of this Agreement (the "Term") will be effective as of the date that you click "I Agree" below, and will continue in effect until otherwise terminated in accordance with this Agreement.

B. Termination by You.

Information on how to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription can be found at http://www.steampowered.com/. Valve reserves the right to collect fees, surcharges or costs incurred prior to the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription. In addition, you are responsible for any charges incurred to third-party vendors or content providers before your cancellation. In the event that your Account or a particular subscription is terminated or canceled by you, no refund, including any Subscription fees, will be granted. In the event that your Account or a particular Subscription is terminated or cancelled by Valve for a violation of this Agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including any Subscription fees, will be granted.

C. Termination by Valve.

1. In the case of a recurring payment Subscription (e.g., a monthly subscription), in the event that Valve terminates or cancels your Account or a particular Subscription for convenience, Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide a prorated refund of any prepaid Subscription fees paid to Valve.
2. In the case of a one-time purchase of a product license (e.g., purchase of a single game) from Valve, Valve may choose to terminate or cancel your Subscription in its entirety or may terminate or cancel only a portion of the Subscription (e.g., access to the software via Steam) and Valve may, but is not obligated to, provide access (for a limited period of time) to the download of a stand-alone version of the software and content associated with such one-time purchase.
3. In the case of a free Subscription, Valve may choose to terminate or amend the terms of the Subscription as provided in the "Amendments to this Agreement" section above.

D. Survival of Terms.

Sections 2(D), 2(E), 7, 9, 10, 11, 13(D), 14, and 15 will survive any expiration or termination of this Agreement.

14. APPLICABLE LAW/JURISDICTION

The terms of this section may not apply to European Union consumers

You agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, and any dispute arising hereunder shall be resolved in accordance with the law of Washington. You agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding by you against Valve shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction with respect to the dispute between the parties and you hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts. In any dispute arising under this Agreement, the prevailing party will be entitled to attorneys' fees and expenses.

15. MISCELLANEOUS

In the event that any provision of this Agreement shall be held by a court or other tribunal of competent jurisdiction to be unenforceable, such provision will be enforced to the maximum extent permissible and the remaining portions of this Agreement shall remain in full force and effect. This Agreement constitutes and contains the entire agreement between the parties with respect to the subject matter hereof and supersedes any prior oral or written agreements. You agree that this Agreement is not intended to confer and does not confer any rights or remedies upon any person other than the parties to this Agreement.

Valve's obligations are subject to existing laws and legal process and Valve may comply with law enforcement or regulatory requests or requirements notwithstanding any contrary term.

You agree to comply with all applicable import/export laws and regulations of the United States and its governmental and regulatory agencies (including, without limitation, the Bureau of Export Administration and the U.S. Department of Commerce). You agree not to export the Steam Software or allow use of your Account by individuals of any terrorist supporting countries to which encryption exports are at the time of exportation restricted by the Bureau of Export Administration. You represent and warrant that you are not located in, under the control of, or a national or resident of any such prohibited country.

I hereby agree to be bound by the Agreement. I also acknowledge and agree that this Agreement (including the Subscription Terms, Steam Online Conduct rules and other Rules of Use, and Privacy Policy) is the complete and exclusive statement of the agreement between Valve and me, and that the Agreement supersedes any prior or contemporaneous agreement, or other communications, whether oral or written, between Valve and myself.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Greybriar, usually when doing something like that it is good etiquette to put the body of the text inside a spoiler box so we don't have to scroll several pages just to skim past your posts.

 

[tom2050]

I think the Civ and Steam alliance is one of the best things to happen to the franchise. Without the need to build their own MP, it will deliver a far superior game overall.

It's impossible to know that any further development of the game has or ever will occur to Civ 5 because of using Steam.

Not only is it impossible to know, but highly unlikely that they are actually doing hordes of extra stuff (that would not normally have been done) because they used Steam.

To say otherwise is non-sense. People say that Steam saved them hordes of time and resources and now they can develop a superior game <--- not true.

Development will develop the game according to how they want the game regardless of Steam. Since they likely choose to use Steam from the get-go everything was already set.

I asked 2K what exactly was implemented in the game that would not have been implemented from all the excessive and absolutely mind-blowing amounts of time, money, and resources saved by using Steam... I'm curious as to what they will say, but I'll tell you the answer is nothing.

If they didn't use Steam, they would have used some other DRM and gamespy or something. No new features because of Steam.

In fact, new features aren't the high point anyways. Social Policies, Combat, and AI. Rest is largely ignored so they can make graphics. Civ 5 would have been the perfect time to make a dynamic diplomacy model, but they left it familiar to Civ 4 (trade Iron for 31 gold). What diplomatic fun!

 

[Senethro]

Tom, how is it you know more about developing games and the decisions they made behind Civilization 5 than Firaxis and the 2K representatives?

 

[arstal]

Steam is free.

Also, 2k probably thought the Civ userbase would be like the MW2 userbase- willing to pay extra for DLC and tolerant of invasive DRM.

Sad thing is in a few months- Impulse reactor would be out, and that has the same features as Steam but vendor neutral (you can put the game on Steam, and Impulse will never pop up. Only rule is you must sell the game on Impulse as well.)

 

[tom2050]

Tom, how is it you know more about developing games and the decisions they made behind Civilization 5 than Firaxis and the 2K representatives?

It's called Common Sense. If they didn't use Steam, they could have used what they did for Civ 4; which worked fairly well.

I did ask 2K, but we already know that if they used what they did with Civ 4, it's nothing new to them... they would have 'Saved Time' there also from not having to write tons of MP code themselves. The argument is moot that they saved abhorrent amounts of resources and only because of Steam will the game not suck.

Do you think Firaxis and 2K decided to use Steam last month? Common Sense again tells you that they decided what to use fairly early in a development process.

I did ask 2K what great things of Civ 5 gameplay we will see because they used Steam. <-- That question alone doesn't even make any sense. We can see what Greg's answer is when faq comes out.

But common sense also tells you, that they don't develop a game's features around the type of DRM scheme being used.

"With Steam, Bob, we can implement Hexes, better AI, and Social Policies and Scalable performance; but without Steam, we will have to axe all of it and stick with stacks of doom!" <--- is this what you honestly believe? N/M, don't answer that!

 

[Senethro]

It's called Common Sense. If they didn't use Steam, they could have used what they did for Civ 4; which worked fairly well.

CD checks are irritating and gamespy is trash.

I did ask 2K, but we already know that if they used what they did with Civ 4, it's nothing new to them... they would have 'Saved Time' there also from not having to write tons of MP code themselves. The argument is moot that they saved abhorrent amounts of resources and only because of Steam will the game not suck.

You're making claims without sufficient knowledge.

Do you think Firaxis and 2K decided to use Steam last month? Common Sense again tells you that they decided what to use fairly early in a development process.

So?

I did ask 2K what great things of Civ 5 gameplay we will see because they used Steam. <-- That question alone doesn't even make any sense. We can see what Greg's answer is when faq comes out.

If you know the question doesn't make sense, what quality of answer are you expecting?

But common sense also tells you, that they don't develop a game's features around the type of DRM scheme being used.

Steam isn't just DRM.

"With Steam, Bob, we can implement Hexes, better AI, and Social Policies and Scalable performance; but without Steam, we will have to axe all of it and stick with stacks of doom!" <--- is this what you honestly believe? N/M, don't answer that!

This is nonsense.

 

[Zoolooman]

It's called Common Sense.

Exercise a little imagination.

Using Steam saves Firaxis from hiring people to produce:

DRM.
Matchmaking.
Achievements.
Integrated community.
Autopatching.
DLC.

This is just stuff that comes to mind. Steamworks is also free, meaning that they don't have to pay Valve for a license. That's rather economical compared to using Gamespy or GFWL. Finally, Steam is the most popular DRM/community platform, and it has historically produced great digital sales for Civilization. It's likely to advertise to an established fanbase.

For all these reasons, Firaxis and 2k publishing can expect to save a money and months of coding effort. Plus the publisher and developer can expect to make bigger buck off every purely digital sale because they don't have to cut a check to a retailer.

Do you really think the development team isn't improved by saving a ton of time and money--resources that are generally limiting factors in game development and polish?

He can't pick out particular features that would've been cut, but there is a lot of effort saved and now spent better elsewhere.

 

[Jugalub]

The main reason I'm prepared to call Steam adware is that IMO it's obvious that's its main purpose. Most of the "features" like chatting with friends, achievements etc. could easily be done by individual games. Even the Steam DRM is fluff in comparison to its functionality as a shop.

Yeh because I want these features separate for every game I play.

 

[treadwin]

This is the old argument about the end of bricks and mortar stores, all over again. You may not like exactly how Steam does what they do, but don't you have to accept that buying a CD and typing security keys was not going to last for ever? Particularly as it didn't work and the software was always pirated anyway.

We are seeing online shopping, web services, software as a service, online registration, apps in the cloud, and so on; you really can't have missed this going on since 2005, when Civ IV came out.

So by all means put pressure on Steam to improve their service and make things better, but objecting to it outright, is up there with, "Man wasn't meant to fly", or "Travelling at over 30mph is dangerous for humans" or "640K ought to be enough for anybody".

 

[Greybriar]

Greybriar, usually when doing something like that it is good etiquette to put the body of the text inside a spoiler box so we don't have to scroll several pages just to skim past your posts.

I plead ignorance. I have never used a spoiler box on this or any other forum.

But at least the Steam Subscriber Agreement is now visible here on this forum.

 

[Ahriman]

So... can you go back and put it in spoiler tags please?
Just put:
[spoiler'] without the ' at the start
and [/spoiler'] without the ' at the end. Thanks!

 

[azzaman333]

It's called Common Sense. If they didn't use Steam, they could have used what they did for Civ 4; which worked fairly well.

I did ask 2K, but we already know that if they used what they did with Civ 4, it's nothing new to them... they would have 'Saved Time' there also from not having to write tons of MP code themselves. The argument is moot that they saved abhorrent amounts of resources and only because of Steam will the game not suck.

Civ4 multiplayer was riddled with Out of Sync errors. It most certainly did not "work fairly well".

 

[2K Elizabeth]

It's called Common Sense. If they didn't use Steam, they could have used what they did for Civ 4; which worked fairly well.

I did ask 2K, but we already know that if they used what they did with Civ 4, it's nothing new to them... they would have 'Saved Time' there also from not having to write tons of MP code themselves. The argument is moot that they saved abhorrent amounts of resources and only because of Steam will the game not suck.

Do you think Firaxis and 2K decided to use Steam last month? Common Sense again tells you that they decided what to use fairly early in a development process.

I did ask 2K what great things of Civ 5 gameplay we will see because they used Steam. <-- That question alone doesn't even make any sense. We can see what Greg's answer is when faq comes out.

But common sense also tells you, that they don't develop a game's features around the type of DRM scheme being used.

"With Steam, Bob, we can implement Hexes, better AI, and Social Policies and Scalable performance; but without Steam, we will have to axe all of it and stick with stacks of doom!" <--- is this what you honestly believe? N/M, don't answer that!

The beauty of Steam is that the things that worked "fairly well" in Civilization IV will now be awesome in Civilization V (unless the things I'm thinking about are entirely different from the things you are - you were vague!)

As for gameplay like hexes and one-unit-per-tile, of course Steam doesn't help with that. That's not what the service is used for - but for connecting people, making an awesome community, helping with stuff like mods and multiplayer... Greg's working away at some awesome features to fill you in on all the details, too.

 

[pleasenoname]

We are seeing online shopping, web services, software as a service, online registration, apps in the cloud, and so on; you really can't have missed this going on since 2005, when Civ IV came out.

I can only sign up for so much internet services, I don't live my life on the internet.
The reason my screen name is "pleasenoname", is because I was tired of filing out online registrations for every little thing. How many dozen passwords and secret questions do i have to have? First they had Myspace, then they had Facebook, twitter too, not to mention Hi 5(mexican friend uses that). I don't want to tie my game to my chat program or social network.

At the same time competition and choice is important. If you want the features you are talking about in steam, its fine by me. However these features could be created by any company. Only having the game on steam is like only selling a hard copy game at one store chain, but no others. We all use different e-mail services, yet our e-mail arrives when we send it to people who use a different service than us.

Also, software should be the same as a book. They are both written material.
I don't lease books. I buy them and put them on my bookshelf.

 

[nerd]

. Greg's working away at some awesome features to fill you in on all the details, too.

I'm just waiting for the FAQ that Greg promised before the end of the month.
I will give him a fair chance to answer all the questions that have been asked......but "awesome features"? Please, just answer the questions....honestly and completely, and skip the "awesome feature", no PR spin, just answers.