A discusion on Immortal game

[Murky]

In warlords, I always seem to get atleast one neighbor with the protective trait and they love to settle hilltops. How do you deal with this?

 

[acidsatyr]

What I really like about this guide is that it uses very standard, normal development that a player on noble difficulty would use anyway, but just executed with precison (except for the alphabet part). No beelining, no UU and no traits that ask for building around.

I do have a few questions though:
a) Why do you insist on scientists and the Great Library, when your cities clearly have enough food to run cottages? Is it because of the philosophical trait, great scientists to pop techs to keep your tech up to AI levels? If it's high population for production, then you have neither, and you don't have the happiness to increase population anyway. If it's for beakers, then I don't see how you could eventually get liberalism and astronomy with just scientists. You don't have pyramids, so you aren't running representation either. Must be missing something.

well stay tuned in cause i will be first one to liberalism.

b) That was a lot of dead chariots. How did you handle the WW from losing 8 units straight in enemy territory? I do notice that WW seems to be a lot weaker in the earlier years, but was that your intention? What's the functional relationship between the year and WW?

who cares about dead chariots when I got Incas capital? Im sure they were all proud to die for it...

c) Why the rush to philosophy and pacifism? Because your neighbours are so close to you, my next step would've been to research horseback riding and attack American cities with HA. Of course at this point catapults and elephants are the way to go, and sounds Indian enough. But how does pacifism help your conquest?

i asnwered that already. I want pacifism asap. One scientist is ~ 1600 beakers.
Philo. is ~ 1300. 300 beakers is nothing since ill be pullin in ~ 1000 later on per turn i hope.

 

[acidsatyr]

So you're saying the use of specialists in Bombay is largely the result of geography?

You only have limited population points allowed at this point, so in the capital, you want to use them up working maximium production. No cottages here.

In Bombay, which is not a productio center, you could work cottages, but where? There isn't much land available to Bombay, so better work the scientists who don't require a tile?

Thats right, i wanted to get my first couple os scientists somewhere as soon as i get my first library. Bombay was perfect for this. No place, not reason to work cottages that early in my case.

 

[podraza]

This is great. Can't wait for the next installment.

 

[Lucky Charms]

Pretty good report acidsatyr. I like all the pictures too. When will the next installment be in?

Also, do you have any idea what victory condition you're going for?

And finally, what are your goals for the next round?

 

[mice]

Just checking in to say this thread is amazing. Great use of screenies and short comments.I want more more more.

 

[cleverhandle]

Excellent thread and reporting, acidsatyr. Thank you.

 

[podraza]

Guys, knock it off. There's only room for one acidsatyr sycophant around here.

 

[Jorunkun]

Righty on, Acidsatyr! Thanks for taking the pains to post this, esp all those screenies.

One thing I wanted to comment on, because it resonated with one key learning in moving up to Immortal: Leverage your strengths, radically. In this case this meant going for all-out scientists because of traits, and spamming chariots with three workable mines and horse/no bronze for strat ressources.

Loved this opening because it is so minimalist and plays exclusively to these two strengths, with no regard for second best, "also nice to have" options like cottages. Same story for founding 2nd city so close to the capital, and stopping there, to achieve that short term goal of making the chariot rush succeed. Excellent lesson in staying focused on key strategy elements, rather than doing a little bit of everything.

One thing I will be watching for is when and how you will begin to ramp up your economy in the mid-game, i.e. what improvements you build where and when you begin to bring in cottages ... if you could, please provide some screens or explanative here.

Looking forward to the next update.

 

[acidsatyr]

Ok guys 2nd part.

[continuing 250 BC – 1370 AD]

250 BC
----------

Same year I finished part 1, but with some micromanagement.

Cuzco gets scientist. Still take 4 turns to build missionary.
This allows slider us to get Construction in 6.
Bombay starts temple.


225 BC
----------
Tao missionary spreads Tao to Delhi.
Give literature + drama to H.C. for Calendar + 40.


200 BC
---------
Sword done. Before I do anything else here, we need another worker from capital.

Tiwanaku finishes library, starts granary.
It gets two scientists and I lower slider to 80%.

150 BC
---------
Cuzco finishes missionary, starts granary.
I move in on the barb city, lots of Mansas units showing to take it out. I want those resources.

Notice H.C. converted to Taoism.
I ask 110 from Mao he agrees.


125 BC
---------

Christianity founded. Capture barb city.

100 BC
---------

Construction in, start CoL (done in 5). Washington has Metal Casting but doesn’t want to trade it away yet.

Worker is done in capital, start H.E. I give Mansa fish + sheep in exchange for his Marble and 1 gpt, so I can finish it in 8 turns instead of 16. I don’t need extra two health points at the moment.

25 BC
--------

Whip granary in Tiwanaku

1 AD
-------

Bombay can now assign priest.

We get GS in Delhi next turn.

25 AD
--------

CoL is in. I decide to go for Civil service.
I demand 50 from HC and he gives of course.
I need to build courthouses asap in all cities as I maintenance is slowing me down a bit.


50 AD
---------
I can bribe Mao to go after Washington for Philosophy + Monotheism, but I don’t really want to do that as he could crush him in 3 turns.


75 AD
---------

HE done. Start build Elephants and cats, ill build infrastructure later.
They all have Theology, but only Mansa wants to trade it. Unfortunately I can only give him Philosophy which is nearly double the price of Theology. I don’t want to do that. Another thing is, all my cities run specialists so pacifism makes more sense, even if Im paying more gpt. I gladly give more money for running pacifism.
Most of them have Monarchy. Can I run a war before they all get longbows?

200 AD
---------
I got yet another scientist in Bombay. I have 3 now doing nothing.

I give monotheism to Mao for 130.
Give Mansa Philosophy + 40 for Horse Raiding and Metal Casting. Fair trade.

Since I did that, price of Philosophy drops considerably, and I give it to Washington for Theocracy + 40. I switch immediately to Theocracy, and now I can increase research slider a bit.
If I was not spiritual, I would really consider going out of Pacifism. Sometimes I like to stay in Pacifism for a very long time, even if it means paying more gpt.

Back to scientists story. Now that I have Theocracy, I can pop paper with one of them, and completely research Education with two. So I can get education in 200 AD, or much faster if I went for, or traded theocracy earlier. With cheap universities I could increase my research even more. Not to mention Liberalism is right there, I can get it very early in fact. All that is not really necessary as all my cities have other stuff to do ATM, i just wanted to mention that.
I will manually research paper.
Notice we have stone, so University of Sangkhore (sp?) is really good idea. Research bonus from all cheap temples and bonus for scientist gpp, just the way we like it.

225 AD
---------

I get my first catapult in Delhi. I skip forge for now since I can get 4 - 5 elephants for it. It is also unnecessary at this point, it would be overkill.
Washington got hold on Machinery.
Forgot to mention, now that HE is done, I canceled that marble deal, and got my fish and sheep back.
Quick look at Cuzco.

250 AD
----------
I decide to whip a few catapults in Tiwanaku.

350 AD
---------
Whipping of cats continues in Tiwanaku, Delhi build elephants mostly. I really want to attack while I still have a chance.
Machu Picchu whips courthouse.
I beg 120 from Mao, he agrees this time.
Every bit of cash ultimately helps no matter how trivial it might seem.
I start moving my stack toward Washington, while he still has archers. He is totally surrounded by Mao, and is weakest. I really can’t declare on Mansa or Mao, ill never be able to get enough units quickly.

425 AD
---------

Ok, so Civil Service in, switch civics. Nobody will give me machinery for Civil Service, as expected. I am setting research to paper. Ill get machinery later.
Finally whipped courthouse in Bombay.

520 AD
---------
Cuzco ….

…..
and Delhi

540 AD
---------
And so I declare on Washington. All major cities already unhappy. Damn I didn’t do anything yet. I whip market in Tiwanaku, but raise culture by 10% as I don’t want to touch Delhi and Cuzco.


Washington went for machinery - > Engineering, delaying Longbows and that will cost him.
Interestingly that red face in Delhi disappeared next turn, and i got temple in Cuzco, so youll see my culture slider is at 0% again next turn.

Take out Boston and collect 83.

One of my chariots that was sent to automatic explore (totally forgot about him) got owned pretty bad by pike.

580 AD
---------

Yet another scientists born in Delhi.

620 AD
----------

Paper in. I set to Education (very far 38 turns away).
BUT, since I 4 scientists not doing a damn thing, a burn 2 of them for whole Education.
Lets see, education costs 2925 beakers. Two scientists give a total of 3210 beakers (or 1605 each).
I *wasted* 285 beakers.

I set research to Liberalism (29).
That’s is 29 with no cash to invest. As I capture cities, ill move the slider up.



640 AD
----------
Mansa wants sugar for marble. Don’t need marble right now.
Capture New York.

 

[acidsatyr]

660 AD
----------
Give combat I to Warlord unit.
Start U.of S. before I start University.
With forge, stone, and organized religion (I switched) Ill get it in 10 turns.

720 AD
----------
Stack in front of Washinton. It has longbows and is on a hill. I will have to suicide some extra catapults.
Notice Mao has elephants, trebs, etc. I really hope he doesn’t do anything foolish here.
They all advanced nicely trough monarchy -> feudalism and machinery-> eng. tree, i can hardly beat them there, so I go middle path, i.e. CS -> paper -> Education -> liberalism. This is what I do lot of times when I play immortal. The choice of my tech path and my strategy is not necessarily the best, but it works, and more importantly if changes from situation to situation. You cant have same strategy every time.
So far research power is doing me more than fine.
All the farms I have really allow me to whip units if I desire so, and grow them back in no time.

Heres trade advisor.


740 AD
----------
Mansa wants paper for compass. Not until I’m done with U. of S.
Strip down Washington of its culture defenses.
Can we get GP here? Probably not.

760 AD
----------
Nope, another GS.
Captured Washington, I had to suicide few catapults.

Whipped that forge in Cuzco.
Now that i took Americas core cities, I sue for peace and monarchy. Other cities are north, beyond Maos borders, and I don’t want them, yet.

Instead, ill try to heal and finish off H.C. while I still can fight somewhat with swords, and before he gets to be someone’s vassal.

780 AD
----------
Both Cuzco and Machu Picchu start Universities.
New York gets courthouse.

N. Dame built somewhere.

800 AD
----------
Mao borders really swallowing my new cities.
I give him bananas for 7 gpt.
Washington was pleased with me +6 sharing religion, - 3 declared war. He convents to Tao, and now I cant trade with him.

820 AD
----------
Maybe Mansa is not technologically most advanced…

840 AD
---------
Tiwanaku starts University.

860 AD
---------
After whipped lighthouse, start University as well.

880 AD
----------
U. of S. finally built, this will help our research a bit.

Delhi – granary -> University.
Islam is founded in Wallata. Is Mansa going to switch to Islam? That would be a serious problem.

I switch to Heredity Rule and back to Pacifism.

920 AD
----------
Whip university in Cuzco.

960 AD
----------
1 turn to liberalism.
Mansa in only one willing to trade.
Available to me are compass, Feudalism, Machinery, D. Right, world map, 140.
Best deal I can squeeze out is Feudalism + Machinery + 140 + World Map, for Education. That’s what I do.

Two reasons I do that. First, if Mansa ever converts to Islam, I loose all my chances for any trade. Second, I want to upgrade for free my sword to Mace. Three, theres three… follows up!

980 AD
----------
Ok so we won liberalism race.
What next?
Given our situation, lets try something different. Definitely not the most expansive tech – gunpowder – but that’s not point anyway!

My strategy is not necessarily the best one, but it sure is interesting, and Im sure it will work. I just want to stimulate new ideas here.
Ok so now what? We are about same in technology with Mansa, which is pretty good at this level and point in the game, I think. I choose to research Printing Press.
And heres why. I will use my two scientists to pop it! That’s right once again im going to get whipped for this. But well see if it pays of at the end. By giving in two scientists ~ 3200, for P.Press (2600 beakers), i waste 600, or half a scientist. Again, not a big deal if you ask me, considering we are philosophical. Always weight your advantages vs. disadvantages.

I still have one sitting in my city, and Delhi is about to spit out another one!
So what’s the point behind this?
To get asap to grenadiers!

And so P.P is in. This is what I can trade with Mansa.

Now, i don’t want to trade any of those two. I want to keep hold on gunpowder for as long as i can, and Mansa is known for adopting Free Religion rather fast, so I don’t want that either. I have to wait a turn before I can trade away P.P. however.
All this would be a little easier if I didn’t have a research monster as my first neighbor., and if i has somebody else to trade with, not tight ass Mao or Washington.
Ho-kay, so…. I set my research to say, Nationalism. My next idea after getting grenadiers is getting Representation.

One of the questions that naturally you might have is, why not go for Cavalry!?. Because it would take me MUCH more time to get to them, and they are not as versatile as grenadiers. I want to upgrade my warlord to grenadier. Also, chemistry is prereq for steel, which I want to get to fast as well. Military tradition doesn’t get me anywhere. Its not a bad choice, but ill go with grenadiers this time.

Maos power looks scary.
I was ready to attack H.C. but i won’t. I will save my energy for somebody else.
Last minute decision.

1000 AD
-----------
I give Mansa P.P. for Engineering + compass + world map + 20. Solid deal, Eng. + compass is ~ 2300 beakers.
I start building trebs.

1020 AD
-----------
Finally, one foxy lady in the game. Top score, but not far away.
I give Mao old philosophy.

Then I trade paper away for optics. (Same amount of beakers, but i need some cash to match it of course).

Now I pop chemistry with my 2 GS. Chemistry costs 2950, same story as education. Im flying trough this research tree with my GSs.

 

[acidsatyr]

Now that pacifism helped me get another GS, I switch to Theocracy.

There is one problem, only my capital is strong production city, no mountains anywhere else basically. Can i get lots of units fast? I sure can if I WHIP! This will stagnate my research for a bit, but a promise of a new land makes my people happy.
I hope you see some advantages of Spiritual and Philosophical trait by now, as well as high food cities with lots of farms.
I am still not falling behind technologically, in fact I’m first.
Can I hold this position until Biology/Republic, when my economy skyrockets again?
I start grenadiers in most of my cities.
This is normal speed, and speed is essential, Epic would be much easier. Every turn is very important.

1070 AD
-----------

I give Cathy P.P. for Guilds and some extra cash.
Mao becomes Master of H.C, as expected, since my power grows rapidly.

Score stagnates because we are killing a lot of people after all, but power graph seems rather promising.

1120 AD
----------

Enough units to declare next turn.

I close borders with mansa.
Last trading with him in this game, give him Liberalism for some cash and banking.
Lets look at power graph. Looks fine for now.

1130 AD
-----------

Declare on Mansa. To ensure that Mansa doesn’t bribe Mao and HC to go after me, I get there first !

I feel more secured knowing Mao wont backstab me while im backstabbing Mansa.

1140 AD
-----------

Mansa attack from all sides, first attack is toughest one, but we live .
I see HC sending lots of units.
Ok, take out Walata.

It has Masjid al-Haram, but only brings in 3 gpt.
Cathy gets to nationalism first.

1150 AD
-----------

Units take a break and heal in Wallata.
Mansa switches to Free religion, Free speech, and Vassalage.
Mao sends a stack of two units, elephant and Chokono , can you believe this guy?

1160 AD
-----------
We meet Ragnar and Lui.
Cathy demands world map I refuse (she demanded education a while ago i refused), she has a lot on (in) her hands now, but no astronomy yet. I m safe for now.


1180 AD
-----------
Take out Tadmekka.

Lots of units coming from both Mao and HC now. Gao will go to Mao it seems.
I get another Warlord. I will build mace in Delhi, give him CR,1,2 then attach to get grenadier. I like this better than +25% production or +2 exp. BTW I got another GS in Bombay despite 50%-50% for Prophet. Crap!. Shrine would really help me now.

1200 AD
-----------

Picture says it all.

I reconfigure most of my cities and assign scientists and merchants.
I do a lot of healthy pillaging with my pike near Gao.

1240 AD
-----------

Now that i took out capital, i split up units in two parts,

i need to get as many cities as i can before Mao. He brought mostly all of his units to the front.

1250 AD
------------
I tell Mao to stop fighting Mansa.

Two reasons, he will take out more valuable cities. Second, if Mansa agrees to become Maos vassal state, i will automatically get peace, and im practically done for good. Maos huge army is right there next to me but at least i have good relations with him.
Im not making any units and all my trade routes are internal since Mao is using mercantilism. I switch to Mercantilism and Organized Religion (again no penalty, how nice is that! Very flexible.). Mansa has grenadiers now, but too late for that.

1280 AD
------------
Take out Djenne.

1290 AD
------------
We get GP finally, and it nets us +15 gpt, not bad.

1300 AD
-------------
Wow look at the Maos culture at Gao.
And units. That’s number of units in all of his cities.
Cathy has Astronomy and still locked in I have a lot in my hands….

1340 AD
-----------
GS born in Delhi.
Switch to Representation, set research to steel. I want to get as far ahead of Mao militaristically, as possible.

1360 AD
------------
Cathy closes borders, shes pissed!

Start Oxford in Cuzco (20 turns).

1370 AD
------------
Mansa down to one city ( i captured others in the meantime Im not going to show pic for every one of them), i get economics from him and peace.

Cities get out of unhappiness, research look good, cities will grow back easily. I got two scientists standing by. I will use both of them later to research scientific method (~ 3700 out of 3900 beakers).
Heres the inside of major cities.

 

[acidsatyr]

And this is where i stop this time.

Power graph.

And trade advisor.

I am still holding on technologically.

Basically, none of them has Constitution, except Mansa.
And Mao lacks Liberalism, Gunpowder, and Nationalism. So No Chemistry either.
I plan to get some cannons, and slowly but surely take him out. See his power graph, ridiculous amount of units, mostly mounted.
As far as my research rate goes, i plan to further increase it by switching to caste system, and going in and out of pacifism.

There’s some micromanagement to can done but I’m too lazy.

End of this part.

Before i finish, i just want to make couple of comments.
Like i said before, there are more than one ways to play this game.
I could’ve went for a more cottage oriented game, but, since i really wanted to get maximum from my trait i decided to concentrate on specialists. I know a lot of you especially wont like what i did with my GSs, but i wanted to show some fresh ideas, and this is just one of the strategies that really worked nice in this game so far. I also wanted to show that you don’t have to be financial and use cottages spamming strategy every time to win. Its about understanding game mechanics. Your civ doesn’t exist independently of all other civs.
Like I said before, its not all black and white, weight your advantages and disadvantages. Not every game can be played exactly the same way.

 

[asabahi]

Just one question. It seems you have room to grow your cities further, at least as far as happiness is concerned, so why not let them do so?

 

[kniteowl]

Just one question. It seems you have room to grow your cities further, at least as far as happiness is concerned, so why not let them do so?

he's running a Specialist Economy without using cast system so the number of Specialist he can assign is limited to the number allowed for every building he constructs.

As far as I can see he's not assigning any Artist, probably because he doesn't want one so he's limited by the 2 Scientist from a Library, 2 Merchants from a Market and so many Priest allowed by Temples and Religion.

If he grows Beyond the number of Specialist he can assign they'd be useless citizens doing nothing... well nothing useful like adding GPP.

 

[mice]

If he grows Beyond the number of Specialist he can assign they'd be useless citizens doing nothing... well nothing useful like adding GPP.

But useful like making production, mines etc. The low pop is from all the whipping isnt it? Where did all those grenadiers come from?

 

[slowcar]

lucky with catherine being on the other side of the ocean - the AI is really lacking in oversea wars.

i am looking forward to watch you crush maos monsterstacks, hopefully after he upgraded his cho-ku-nos to something without collateral

do you plan to go after him with cannons and grenadiers?

But useful like making production, mines etc. The low pop is from all the whipping isnt it? Where did all those grenadiers come from?

due to the whip a food is more valuable then a hammer, at least until a certain city size.
whipping armies works very well with a SE because, as mentioned, you don't need your cities that big anyhow as long as they can't support more specialists (merchants+scientists) and with all the farms they can regrow in no time. and when whipping an army you can get a good number of advanced forces in a short period of time, much needed because immortal AI gets the upgrades nearly for free

 

[mutax2003]

It has been an interesting read so far. Typical I like to cottage spam, but guess I will have to rethink my strategy, maybe a SE or hybrid economy will prove more effective for higher level and online games.

 

[voek]

Interesting (ab)use of the GS. Normally one would consider wasting those beakers a sin, but I can see the need for grenadiers fast. Great focussing, I think that's is the most important lesson of this game. It's normal speed so grenadiers a few turns sooner might be well worth the *loss* of beakers. I do not agree on the attachment of the Warlord however. But maybe this is because you don't have one big unit producer, but several whip city's. I can't tell from here. But in case there is one big producer I think the +2exp is better. 25% doesn't cut it, maybe the 50% after the patch does.

Interesting to see how you are going to do against Mao. I guess good use of canons and superior units will decimate his stacks quit fast. Only problem is you also have to deal with Huayna which gives you a huge frontline.

Aiming for Space or going to try a invasion after the continent is owned?

 

[Eggolas]

Great game so far. I really like the way you leverage the traits and work with the available geography. The explanations of the diplomacy and trading are very interesting. I'm not sure I'd have thought of bribing Mao to halt hostilities, but I see the need to do so.

Spiritual: Your use of the trait really highlights its power in the higher level games. While it is somewhat unappreciated in Monarch and below (except as Mansa I would guess), the importance here to your tactics can't be any clearer.

Philosophical: Synergy a plenty here, although I never saw it before. I'm beginning to have a greater appreciation for the game designers. As well as your Immortal playing skill.

Grenadiers: In looking at your pictures of the Grenadiers with 5 pts xp, I noticed that they didn't have promotions. Did you promote them prior to their first battles? How did you promote them (CR2/3)?