A few suggestions

[Zechnophobe]

Been loving this mod for the past month or so, gotten in about two dozen games.

I've got two little ideas that I thought I'd share.

1) The Elohim seem to lack in 'spice'. Playing as them, they lack in unique characteristics, and are very uncompelling. Heck, I don't even see anyone on here talking about them. I've a small concept that might give them a bit more direction. Change their palace so that it allows you to allocate 1 population point to being a priest. Also, in a sort of complement to the Sidar's style, make it such that priest specialists for the Elohim (Or perhaps just in the capital) produce +1 food.

2) The Khazad hero is a huge defensive beatstick... and probably the least interesting hero in the game because of it . Now, I've already got a beef with the Khazad since they start with Gold as the sad weak sister to enchantment mana, but what if the khazad hero has Affinity for Gold +2, and a corresponding down-tweak to his stats (2 to 4 points, I'm not sure). It gets in my craw real bad that they get no advantage from mining gold because they start with it. The net effect is flavorful, but logistically bland.

A hero with affinity for gold (Assuming you can do that) would do a lot to make that starting alotment of gold feel more effective (Even though, as it is a given, it will be taken into account with his stats).

 

[Tarquelne]

1) The Elohim seem to lack in 'spice'.

Toot toot:
Elohim with salsa, a modular modmod that's the result of a thread titled "Spicing up the Elohim".

Change their palace so that it allows you to allocate 1 population point to being a priest.

Something like that sounds good, I may add it. Take a look at the threads and please post if you have other suggestions.

 

[Demus]

well, the Khazad overall are very defensively orientated, from the additional defence bonus from their capital (not sure if it's still in, but it used to be anyway), to the very defensive guerilia promotion. Still, i agree a defensive hero is a lot less "fun" than an offensive one, since with the latter you get to decide when to use him/her, while with the former you have to wait for someone else to bring the action towards you. Still, the affinity for gold could be a bit to much, maybe instead give the dwarven vault an additional happiness per gold resource in your borders?

 

[rusty217]

Wow +2 affinity for gold... that would be far too powerful especially with the copper to gold event....

But the Khazad being good at defence is a good thing, it's better to have to adapt to different playstyles for different civs...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Starting with gold instead does kinda annoy me.

I may change it to a second earth mana, so they would have a higher rate of discovering resources than other civs and their adepts would all start with Earth I.

 

[Mesix]

well, the Khazad overall are very defensively orientated, from the additional defence bonus from their capital (not sure if it's still in, but it used to be anyway), to the very defensive guerilia promotion. Still, i agree a defensive hero is a lot less "fun" than an offensive one, since with the latter you get to decide when to use him/her, while with the former you have to wait for someone else to bring the action towards you. Still, the affinity for gold could be a bit to much, maybe instead give the dwarven vault an additional happiness per gold resource in your borders?

I don't know, I find him very useful. I take him along with my stack and he soaks up any damage from a counterattack. I then let him sit in conquered cities for a few turns until defensive units arrive to take over, and then rinse and repeat. It is a great way to manage a war when playing the Khazad.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Wow +2 affinity for gold... that would be far too powerful especially with the copper to gold event....

But the Khazad being good at defence is a good thing, it's better to have to adapt to different playstyles for different civs...

Oh yeah,that's true, Affinity+1 would likely make more sense. I'd be curious to see how much you can regularly get out of that.

About the second earth Mana: Aren't the khazad mines supposed to already increase the rate they find new resources? (I wish I knew the numbers there, to be honest since I played an entire game with them, and only uncovered one resource).

Lastly: Defensive isn't a playstyle. Perfectionist might be, but defensive isn't. Afterall, every way you play generally involves not getting conquered. Defensive could only seriously be a playstyle if you could reclesslessly build cities, and then still defend them from all forms of attack. This is completely unreasonable for khazad (Or really any faction, since a 'reckless' city would likely need lots of culture as well as military defense.)

Anyhow, I don't want to gripe on the Khaz too much, but I want to make sure the record is in my opinion straight.

 

[Demus]

defensive basically is a builder playstyle, instead of a warmonger (which is pretty aggressive usually). Imho, for a RoK Khazad, a religious or altar peaceful victory is pretty doable (spread RoK to over half the world before the later religions get founded).

 

[Zechnophobe]

Yeah, I'm asserting that is better described as perfectionist. Anyhow, semantics aside, a few other points:

1) The Grand menagerie is nigh on un-buildable. I *LOVE* the idea behind this wonder, and do agree that it should not get built in most games, or if it is built often, only because the "When wild animals attack" ritual is performed.

That said, It is extremely frustrating to achieve right now. The obvious way to fix it would be to increase the duration of animal spawns, but I think a pretty subtle way would be to make subdue animal available with hunting, not animal husbandry.

Why do this? So that if a player is really 'going' after the menagerie, they need only go down one tech path, and not multiples. They still need to create a fair number of hunters to even hope of finding the right animals (And then need both the XP and the battles won). However, since subdue is really not good for anything else in the game, I don't see this as a major balance issue. It's not like unlocking city attack.

2) Sidar are defensive, and require level 6 units to become shades. Suggestion here is to make them either raiders or philosophical, and to either lower the level cap by one, or to allow Shadow's to turn into shades at a lower level (Similar to how Moroii can become vampires easier). I don't specifically find the Sidar 'weak' per se, but I get very little out of them besides their really good hero and decent unique units.

 

[Ecofarm]

1) You can upgrade hunters to confessors. Use some early hunters to gather levels, upgrade to confessor, then upgrade to high priest.

I've heard Elohim is more attuned lorewise to empyr, but I like to use them Order -> Righteousness -> Theology for:

Valin: blitz, C5, etc

Sphener (wow is he awesome now): Unyielding order out of the gate, acess to command line, 16str (w/holy), and casts heal. Too bad I can't leave him home for the unyielding... he's just too amazing on the front.

Corlindale: vitalize and inspiration, domination, and maelstrom (with an air node hooked up). A real utility guy who can leave home to help the army after vitalizing is done. He provides longbows to defend my homeland via domination, and maelstroms when it's time to take the city.

3 Paladins

3 High Priests (hunter -> confessor -> high)

That's alot of righteous, flavorful ass-whuping power right there. And sanctuary can help move down that long tech path with minimal defense.



.02

 

[MagisterCultuum]

About the second earth Mana: Aren't the khazad mines supposed to already increase the rate they find new resources? (I wish I knew the numbers there, to be honest since I played an entire game with them, and only uncovered one resource).

Back in Light the Khazad had Dwarven Mines instead of mines, which in addition to being unpilagable had a higher chance of discovering resources. These are however long gone. They were removed mostly because the AI didn't work well with them (it would build them over resources they couldn't harvest, for instance, and I think it also messed up the AI to have different workers have different abilities). Also, their effect was considered redundant when Earth Mana was given the passive effect of increasing this rate.

So, no, Khazad mines are no more likely to discover resources then anyone else's with the same amount of earth mana. I don't remember the exact formula either, but starting with 2 earth mana would definitely improve this rate.

 

[Zechnophobe]

1) You can upgrade hunters to confessors. Use some early hunters to gather levels, upgrade to confessor, then upgrade to high priest.

I've heard Elohim is more attuned lorewise to empyr, but I like to use them Order -> Righteousness -> Theology for:

Valin: blitz, C5, etc

Sphener (wow is he awesome now): Unyielding order out of the gate, acess to command line, 16str (w/holy), and casts heal. Too bad I can't leave him home for the unyielding... he's just too amazing on the front.

Corlindale: vitalize and inspiration, domination, and maelstrom (with an air node hooked up). A real utility guy who can leave home to help the army after vitalizing is done. He provides longbows to defend my homeland via domination, and maelstroms when it's time to take the city.

3 Paladins

3 High Priests (hunter -> confessor -> high)

That's alot of righteous, flavorful ass-whuping power right there. And sanctuary can help move down that long tech path with minimal defense.



.02

Right, but how much of that is just playing 'the good tree' as opposed to playing Elohim?

Compare it to playing Carditha Lorda, or even the Luichirp.

I've some other thoughts on how to make the Elohim interesting, but the ones I listed above were very easy to grock in comparison.

 

[Sarisin]

Yeah, I'm asserting that is better described as perfectionist. Anyhow, semantics aside, a few other points:

1) The Grand menagerie is nigh on un-buildable. I *LOVE* the idea behind this wonder, and do agree that it should not get built in most games, or if it is built often, only because the "When wild animals attack" ritual is performed.

That said, It is extremely frustrating to achieve right now. The obvious way to fix it would be to increase the duration of animal spawns, but I think a pretty subtle way would be to make subdue animal available with hunting, not animal husbandry.

Why do this? So that if a player is really 'going' after the menagerie, they need only go down one tech path, and not multiples. They still need to create a fair number of hunters to even hope of finding the right animals (And then need both the XP and the battles won). However, since subdue is really not good for anything else in the game, I don't see this as a major balance issue. It's not like unlocking city attack.

You just have to be very lucky to build the Grand Menagerie. You are right about the animals disappearing quickly. Also, it is always difficult to get the Tiger and Gorilla. However, you need to make this wonder difficult to build because of the benefits it gives your city and your civ. Getting the Grand Menagerie just about ensures you will make legendary culture in that city at some point.

I built it several games ago and I was lucky. I was playing as the Grigori and got Hunting from a goodie hut. I made one of my adventurer heroes a Hunter and researched Animal Husbandry. I actually got 2 Gorillas and 2 Tigers and many Wolves, but just couldn't get a dumb Lion. Then, I got the luck I needed - the event that allowed me to buy an animal...thank you very much for that Lion!

On the Elohim, I think if you searched back a few versions in this forum you would find more. I voted for them as my favorite civ (although, I am really enjoying the Grigori a lot these days). The main reason I chose them was because they are the only civ I can win at any difficulty level - thanks to the Altar Victory. I really think they are the best civ to choose if you want to go for that type of victory.

Their hero is OK, their World Spell OK, then you have the Monks which are great if the Infernals are about...otherwise, not so good.

Yes, be sure to have a look at the fine modmod mentioned that spices them up a bit.