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A game of Kublai

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by krikav, May 14, 2019.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T22-T29 :


    Continued teching fishing, city is working maximum food to reach pop5 at least. I did try to count abit, see if there was some nice stunt I could pull of with overflow of barracks into almost finished warrior for nice double overflow into settler, but I couldn't figure anything out, so I just went full growth. I was allowed to trade 2 food for 2 hammers and still reach pop5 in the same turn.

    I see Isabellas workboat of the coast, this scores extra points for the coatal+fishing aproach, as this could give me access to resource-trades earlier.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Since her workboat came on that coast, she is likely in the west, I would like to see closer to her, but a corn demands the scouts attention.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    I stumble upon her archer. Is this a safe move to make? What is the order that the AIs and the barbs move? Is there a risk she will move her archer away from my scout who would get killed by a barb?
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    Sorry, forgot to remove old tags. Scout has revealed coastal fish and a sheep up there, (also tundra) but a city up there grabbing multiple resources with creative borderpops looks tempting!
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    I get ownded by the city governor who decides it's time to stop growing, and I fail to notice. >_< Luckily I had two food to spare.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Warrior plans to go like this and take up FB-post. This would shield the clam-city, and he will have easy access to a forested hill in case trouble comes his way.
    The scout will continue to scout, would be good to see if there is fur/silver/deer just northwest, but I also want to get closer to Isabella and have a peek.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    Found her third city, Seville.
    Still EP partiy, so I think it's reasonable safe to say that this is semi-iso.
    I get a feeling that Isabella is rather boxed in, and if I want to get fish/sheep I'm suddenly in a hurry!
    I could certainly make a fight for the corn, as she has it in her second ring. But I think it would be unwise to pick a fight like that.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    Just two warriors now, and we are getting kind of close to when barbs are knocking on our doors. But the far reaching culture gives early warning, and if I'm correct in that Isabella is kind of boxed in, she will do a good job minimizing barbs from that direction. There was a barb archer in the west, but I haven't seen that one since T20 so I think she got that one.

    I think I want to take the risk of going for the settler right away, I think the worst thing that can happen is that I'm caught unprepared and have to postpone the settler build, or risk having my plains cow pillaged.
    Second warrior will move east and probably risk his life to scout abit on that eastern river, if there is a hill close by there he will take up post.

    As it is now, I kind of want to settle the clam city as intended, then rush up and grab a city 1N of the sheep, those two cities would deter her from comming much closer to me there I think.
    Then probably on the PH sharing the corn, as that would be a beautiful city, and it's likely that she will come and settle something in an ackward position if I don't.

    Continious techpath pottery -> writing is the way to go I think. The clam city can produce it's own workboat, and a workboat for the northern city that can grow on it's sheep for some time.
    Instead going mining->bw after pottery is abit to slow to have chops/whip to assist with these immediate goals I think?


     
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  2. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Should be no risk for the 2nd city with fogbusting, now that you have seen her corn city i would move the scout back thou and try keeping fish & sheep clear too.
    Yup BW would be too late for 3rd city help, considering another settler for it before worker #2 makes sense here.
    If there are no barb troubles around settling spots, i like delaying development (worker improvements) in favor of grabbing good land from AIs, and it's only this city that should be contested :)
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T30-T49 (Fishing -> Pottery -> Writing) Barb invasion! :


    I scout abit more toward Isabella, and the archer I thought was dead reveal itself.
    I also think that there is a danger area up north of the warrior, but Isabella had an archer there that I forgot about.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    I did not get worker micro to line up at all, I want to road the cow so that the city SE of horses have connection right away, so it seems like I won't get any cottages down, as the worker will go north to improve the horses next.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    The warrior to the east is insane and jump one more tile west and expose himself to danger, as usual for my warriors.
    Some really nice goodies show up.
    I start to worry that I might ruin a fish if I settle SE of the horses, and the warrior then moves N and NW to check that.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    T35 the 6H overflow is caught by another settler.
    But there is no fish. There is never any fish, so I settle and start to improve the horses. Second city takes the cow and are allowed to grow on that, while building workboat.
    Capital gets stuck in a annoying situation where it lacks one hammer to finish the settler in 5 turns, taking the cow would solve that but I want city #2 to have the cow.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    T37 Isabella finishes SH, thats mostly nice because it increases the odds of an shrine to eventually capture.

    I solved the problem with the settler by building a warrior with 8 hammers, generating one overflow.
    I'm starting to worry that I have abit to lean barb defense with my two warriors, so another one doesn't hurt.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    Oh... now I kind of panic. Isabella finishes TGW at the same turn as barbs start their invasion.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    The northern warrior falls back to shore up defenses in the second city, scout falls back behind him to ensure fogbusting. The newly built warrior jumps up on that forested hill and gets woody promotion. It's abit worse than cover, but if they succed, woody2 warriors are so nice.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
    But ofcourse he dies a horrible death, likely gaining that murdering barb archer several promotions. Two more archers reveal themselves in the south.
    Here I stop the production of the settler and instead start on a chariot. :) Beshebalik also puts it's workboat on hold to start a warrior.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    The eastern warrior approaches with cover promotion. Won't get worthless odds in the forest, and if he dies he still buys the capital valuable time.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG

    He does succed, good that some things work out!
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG



    cont...
     
  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    continuation
    Spoiler T30-T49 (Fishing -> Pottery -> Writing) Barb invasion! :


    I really don't want my corn pillaged, I'm extremly streched when it comes to workerturns as it is. This one also succeds!
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG

    Finally some chariots.
    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG

    Here I allow capital to take back the cow for one turn, as that finishes the settler.
    The poor worker tries to make some cottages in vain, constantly being interupted by marauding barbarians!
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG

    Barbarians just keep comming from the south.
    Civ4ScreenShot0022.JPG
    I need another chariot, Beshebalik is optimistic and wants to get going with the workboat for the northern fish-city. Worker and settler is moving north for it too.
    Finally a barb city appears, and that usually calms them down abit. I entertain the idea of settling 1W of the corn and possibly culture-flipping that barb city.
    Civ4ScreenShot0023.JPG

    Apparantly they had more to give. Beshebalik can't finish a warrior in two turns and is now in grave danger, An injured warrior moves north to supplement the chariot.
    Civ4ScreenShot0024.JPG

    The warrior have to give up his life to save the cow. My lone worker is up in the north now.
    Civ4ScreenShot0026.JPG

    The warrior dies ofcourse, but injures the archer so that the chariot can pick it off easily. The other chariot moves into a good position to fight the remaining archer. (And wins it's fight next turn)
    Kind of regret that I promoted it to c1 and not took the opportunity to get a sentry chariot.
    Civ4ScreenShot0029.JPG

    I opt for this location, if I was more bold I could have gone NE of the corn and taken a culture fight for it. I could also have gone 1S of the fish and claimed those two western forests on grassland, but I instead chicken out and take a city spot that will cause least possible border tension. The city will have a lighthouse eventually too, so the whale doesn't hurt.
    Still room for a filler city 1W of the clam.
    Civ4ScreenShot0028.JPG
    The barb fight wasn't that bloody, but it got exciting at times. Only lost two warriors (one of which was more of a sacrifice.)
    Score a point for agg-warriors and chariots! No archery needed. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0031.JPG

     
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  5. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Fun with barbs ;)
    Now you will be happy about having chariots, agg warriors are good but chariots clean them up so much more efficient esp. after reaching combat 2.
    With warriors there's always a chance left of getting rng screwed imo.
    + they might be able to steal barb cities later, once AIs weaken them.
     
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  6. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    T49 Situation:

    Spoiler :

    The northern city, the worker still has 3 turns left improving the sheep, Beshebalik is building workboat, 4 turns left and then 4 turns for transit.
    I'm thinking that the worker should improve a cottage on the grassland, before returning south to cottage and then chop alot.
    But a cottage so that the city has 3 good tiles to work while building up for 2pop whips of granary, library and lighthouse.
    The scout will enter Isabellas land and explore her empire. She is lacking BW and doesn't have chariots.
    She is also lacking sailing and writing, so I'm thinking that she is already going deep into the religious tree. I'm also guessing she has stone, since she built both SH and TGW so close to each other, so there is the possibility that she will build the pyramids too, if that happends I might reconsider my peaceful stance!
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    The two chariots are healing up and will then start exploring the lands east and south.
    Both the scouts isabella sent south dissapeared, but I saw at least one barb warrior with promotions, so that is their likely fate. EP is still at parity so it seems ever more likely that this is semi-iso.
    The workboat she sent on the western coast has not appeared on the eastern coast, so there is likely at least some land available south and west.

    I think that it's likely wise to settle my western city first, as I'm almost certain she will go for the horse if I don't, and she will likely settle in an ackward position that makes a city of mine in that region problematic to place.
    If I manage to get monopoly on horses, that will make resource-trading more profitable too.
    I would like to settle 1W of the corn too though, to start building culture to reach 100 and gain control over that barb city for free.
    There is filler spaces at the northern clams, and something around the plains cow for later.
    On the sugar might also be a nice alternative, but further exploration in that direction will reveal best path.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


    Will finish library now in two turns and build up some cash. Then I think it's off to mining -> bw. Also want sailing at some point as it's likely to unlock traderoutes to isabella and to my northern city in a simple manner.
    I'm really dying for another worker, but I do have a sense of urgency with that western city and contemplate if not another settler is the best priority once the library is done.
     
  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I really like how the game is developing. Have managed to keep focus and now look forward to an endless stream of missionaries and becomming friendly quickly with Isabella. I believe I can get a land advantage over her and the option to dominate this continent will be open almost whenever I want, and there is already a small collection of wonders for the taking. But there is also possibilities to going full RP mode and assist in spreading missionaries abroad and crush infidels. :)

    @Fippy
    It's not that often that I get chariots for barb defense. Usually once you survive the initial invasion the land around you is already settled and AI units are moving everywhere.
    It felt really nice to have them here though, 89% odds attacking archers on flatland is quite good, and once at combat2 I imagine that they do a very good job.
    Also getting close to 10XP as the most experienced one is already at 7, and unlocking a possible heroic before any wars is always really nice.
    It wouldn't have been any problems defending here with only warriors though, the terrain was so good.

    @All
    Won't be able to play more in about 20 hours now, so fire of your thoughts at the current situation, what did I do that was dumb? Is there something you learned and want me to clarify? How would you follow up onthis situation?
    Love to hear your thoughts!
     
  8. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Things are going really well, it seems! It's almost hard to see what could go wrong? ;)
     
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Oh, I can imagine a few nightmares.
    Isabella does plot at pleased.
    The usual risk of a AI runaway on another continent is always present..
    A wave of 2-3 barb spears from the south.
     
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  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    400 views on the thread, but not much commenting, don't be shy you lurkers! :)
    Will start playing abit soon.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  11. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Gone away for a few days, start is looking real nice. Didn't read the thread if at all. No starting save ?
    I might try'na shadow this (at least the opening), despite my hatred beyond measure of Mongol leaders/civ. They're the worst. Kublai is barely acceptable. Genghis is urgh *vomits*
     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @BornInCantaloup Sorry, edited initial post and attached starting save.
    You are absolute welcome to shadow!
     
  13. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Thanks. So I tried to bum rush settlers into the jungle and I lost city 3, which freed up maintenance for my Alphabet beeline. All according to plan ! Leeeeroy Jenkins !

    I might try the same plan again tonight.
     
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  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T49-T63 Mining -> BW uneventful exploration :


    Scout makes sure there is no seafood that would enable another city west, turns up empty handed. I spy Isabellas workboat that I took for lost on the eastern coast. It has traveled for 29 turns (!) the jungle area must be either extremly snakey or huge.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    Chariots have healed up, and start their exploration of the jungle. First one finds tripple gems. Depending if there is some food there, A city 1S of my "c?" mark could be an option, also going for IW might be an option. I'm a long way from friendly with Isabella yet, and she has not bothered to tech BW herself either.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    How the AI settles it's cities always have me annoyed. Why not have Barcelona 1S to share that corn Isabella?!
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
    Here my Settler makes a quasi-kamikaze move, if there by any chance has spawned a barb on that horse for example..
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG
    But luck strikes again!
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG
    This chariot was foolish enough to take a peek south, even though that could have spelled doom. Fortunatly the barb archers didn't take advantage of my crazyness.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG
    Oh, now Isabella finishes BW.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG
    BW is in, I have no easily accessable copper, but thats no problem really.
    The first missionary is close to my borders. <3
    Have slow-built two workers so my count is up at 3 now. One will finish a grassland farm for that western city for a turn more or so, but then I think it's time for some chopping. All riverside grassland first, and I'll cottage up as I go.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG
    Northern city ready to whip, probably should revolt right away.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG
    The land south and east is huge and extremly resource rich. If an AI would have gotten my starting position they would run away completely with the game. I plan on doing something similar but now I need to set some priorities. My usual aproach in similar situations is just to expand rapidly and rather thoughtlessly.
    I'm inclined to go sailing for easy trade routes of both with my northern city and with Isabella (Would be right away due to the river with Santiago).
    I'm also tempted to go for math, since I have so much pristine forests to chop.
    Probably currency should also be considered rather soon, to avoid a complete meltdown of the economy if I try to claim all this land, but it's also tempting to make a go for IW right away, getting a city up and running those 3 gems would take care of alot of REX sins.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG
    Rather comfortable problem, having waaay to much good land to settle. But still a challenge that needs to be navigated efficiently.
    Any thought on how I should go about this?

     
  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T63-T96 Sailing->IW->Math->Currency :


    T64 I revolt to slavery.

    Isabella has sent the first wave of missionaries.
    I get Buddhism T65 but I don't swap just yet, I don't need the happines right away and Isabella is notorious for asking one to join her religion, and if she does that would mean +1 diplo long term and that wouldn't hurt!

    T67 I realize I forgot to whip granary in fish-city last turn, and have to resort to a 1pop whip now.

    40bpt @ -14 gpt. Sailing will provide me with 5 commerce.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    T70 sailing is done and Isabella pops a great spy, she runs a GA the next turn.

    I have now scouted the entire jungle.
    Saving up cash for 4 turns now and intend to do an academy with the GSci, but then I go for IW. Not something I normally do, but I think it's correct here, to get the gems running earlier, another happines and an ability to start to stake out the prime land in the jungle.
    My intention is to culture-flip the barb city in the center and keep it. And build a few units to conqer the southern one. The NE city has only a dry wheat and a clam, but there is an peninsula extending further NE and if this city is settled there, it will speed up naval movement later on.
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    I didn't have to wait long. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    She settled another city, and border pressure is building. I don't like that many metal units close by, and I'm starting to get abit nervous now...
    The settler from fish+sheep city moves into her northern region and settles a gift-city.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    T79 GSci builds the academy and I start sprinting to IW, IW is done T82, it turns out I have access to two iron sources, but unfortunatly Isabella has a source of her own too.
    Double jungle growth the same turn. :)
    Old Serai is cranking out 5 culture per turn (2 creative, 2 library, 1 religion) and is set to pop borders again in 15 turns, And soon thereafter I think I get the barb city?
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    Old Sarai is going strong with commerce, only working 2 out of 3 gems here though.
    Running out of things to build, always probelmatic if one goes math->currency instead of alfa->currency.

    I landed 2 chops the turn before I finish Math, cleary not as focused as I want to be. :)
    Another mistake that I do almost all of my games is that I started to build a warrior for military police in Ning-hsia but then connected the iron.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG

    Now I'm determined to not do the mistake of settling this city and thereby delaying currency for 1-2 turns.
    Not sure about calendar... There are only two sources (sugar+dye) and it's an expensive tech for only two happines. But so many dyes in one spot would get me a quick boost in commerce.
    All the multiple resources also indicates that astro should be considered since I have alot of resources to trade away.
    The whales also put a slight tilt toward optics in itself.
    Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG

    T94 Isabella pops a prophet and makes the shrine at T95.

    T96 Currency is in, and I beg for gold right away. If those axes was a military buildup, she might have been plotting, and I have no way to tell.
    I should become friendly with her rather soon, and that would make any previous plotting go away, right?
    Civ4ScreenShot0021.JPG


    Not at all sure how to play this best (so many good options!), but right now I'm thinking of going toward CS, perhaps go through priesthood for the bonus and being able to get monarchy later on.
    But making a detour to calendar first sounds reasonable too.
    Or I could simply go straight for optics, be content with the happines from the whale and continue to sprawl out cities.
    There is marble, but I think it's too late to make a play for GLib.



    Current save is attached, appreciate pointers on what you think should be highest priority, and how to go about it.
     

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    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  16. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    Getting her to Friendly wouldn't stop plotting (if she started before) :). But should be ok unless you are very unlucky.

    Early Iron Working was nice I think, but then I'd have gone Monarchy and straight for Optics probably. Many options though, don't know what's best.
     
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  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Lain Thanks for dropping by and for your feedback!
    Yes, that could probably have been a leaner and more efficient method.
    Alot of small factors probably sent me down the currency path.
    I felt that I was running out of useful things to build, Isabella had no resources to trade so if I want something from her it would be gpt. Wanted a convenient way to beg and also I was envisioning a massive expansion down south and was worried that economy would collapse if I didn't reach currency first.

    As it is now, would you still turn your attention toward monarchy right away, (still lacking myst, so there is some tiny techs in the way too.). Or could the gems+ivory and later whale be enough to go straight for optics?

    What is your take on calendar now that math is already in? Two happines in every city for free isn't half-bad, and the 5 dyes up and running like mature cottages would be nice. But almost all the sugars are already at freshwater and could equally well be farmed.
     
  18. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    Now with Mathematics + Sailing already in (and settler ready), Calendar looks pretty good. 5x Dye (3x on the river) is great!
    And with all the happiness resources, maybe you can skip Monarchy and go straight for Optics after Calendar. Whip Forges for one extra happy (from gems) if cities grow too big, or just settlers/workers you will need anyway. Capital with academy can grow to happy cap and then give food away, just run cottages. Could work out well. I mean, Optics is really not far away, you already have Iron Working + Sailing. Only four techs, I think. Especially if you build a bit of wealth with the nice cows/horses/iron tiles.

    You also can trade for Monarchy from Isabella soon, probably. At some point she will get Alphabet.
     
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  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Yes, thats one thing I really hope for. If I get her friendly soon I hope to trade for quite a collection of small techs, this will aid in not hitting WFYABTA with the other AIs later on.
    I could easily put 10-20 worker to work here with all the jungle and cottaging that can be done. So stagnating cities won't be a problem I think.

    No time to play much now though, it's Civ4 AI Survivor night tonight! :)
    http://www.sullla.com/Civ4/civ4survivor4-5-preview.html
     
  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T97-T115 Isabella friendly, I tech Alfa, some trades. Barb city conqer. Rapid expansion. :


    I spot a road outside barb city culture, and suspect that there has spawned a new barb city out east.
    I also notice the tiles 2S 2E of the sugar, thats an ocean tile that is not rechable by any theoretical city on my landmass, this indicates land nearby.
    I would really like a sentry chariot now!
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    I set course to tech calendar. Partly for +2 happines, partly for nice commerce in the dye-city and party because it's on the way to astro.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    2 barb workers making a pasture for the cow. One barb worker is standing in the city. Quite a prize to get that city! Have a pair of swords on the way.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Calendar is done, and Isabella goes up to friendly. This makes me want to go Alfa myself. I rather lose abit of time than risk waiting for an eternity if she doesn't tech it.
    Not only do I want to get myself some techs, but I also want to boost her if I can.
    Not giving away free happines resources to her yet though, want to make sure I get all land I want first.

    I reason that It's good to make my continent more advanced, as we fare better in competition with the others, and conquering Isabellas cities can always be a fallback strategy.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    T104 A great general spawns.

    Alfabet is in, she has already teched math+currency, was hoping she had not.
    I trade alfa+calendar for CoL+Mason+Myst.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    I start the fight by attacking with an chariot with flank at 50% odds, if it would have succeded I would have gotten a sentry promotion and perhaps could have made contact over the strait.
    The chariot died, apparantly there is a limit for how much luck one can have in one game. :)
    But the swords and remaining chariots take the city and I gain 3 workers. Very nice!
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    Oh... If only that chariot had succeded I would have made another pre-optics contact.
    Looks like Monty, although the color is difficult to tell, Saladin? Zara? Looks more like Monty I think.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG

    I just trade away techs as I get them. To reduce the odds of her wasting beakers on techs I have already gotten. Abit suprised by her choices of tech, usually she beelines divine right, but now she has picked up horseback riding and construction (even though she lacks horses and ivory).
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG

    My plan was to culture conquer this barb city... Haven't had much success with that. >_<
    I do secure a lvl4 guy for heroic epic though.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG



    Will post the 1AD situation summary too.
     

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