A game of Kublai

[krikav]

This game/thread is sort of as a follow-up on this game, which I had so much fun with:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/deity-fredrich.645258/

I'm playing deity NH/NE.
Rolled a couple of leaders randomly, but discarded Gandhi, Shaka and Hammurabi and then this guy showed up:

Agg is my personal favourite trait, and I have been enjoying creative more and more too, but mostly I just really like this guy.
His greeting quote is something like "Let's band up together and destroy our enemies together and only then rend each other like the rabit dogs we truly are!" and that always have me chuckle.

The map is another fractal map.
What I plan to do (as in the previous game), is to have this as a mix of me presenting my thoughts, asking questions as I go and appreciating feedback.
So please don't be shy, do jump in and ask me what the heck I'm doing if something seems off. I really want to learn more of this wonderful game and it's tough to do it alone.

I won't be replaying turns, but rather have this as one continious set, this helps me to stay focused and get involved in the game.

 

[sampsa]

My current habit on T0-T5 is to move the starting unit in a way that maximizes the possibility of meeting someone, if first tech is something every AI has (like agri here, since you gain a bonus when teching a tech someone you've met knows), especially when starting with a scout. Only then revert to "normal duties" i.e. trying to find best city spots and trying to find the best fog busting spots. Of course, a very minor thing.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T0 - T5 (choose tech) :

I got some coastal starts first, but I have really had enough of those for the time being.
But this starts looked nice, do bash me for being cheesy and going with ivory again, but I thought that a plains cow would be compensation.
The obvious place to settle here is on the ivory, for the extra early hammer, a move that would also gain more river tiles, this move also loses nothing but some forests.
I move my scout NW, with an open mind that I could go past the ivory with my settler if nice resources show up.

Now I'm almost getting abit ashamed. ...almost.

Haha, good old Kublai certainly doesn't mind yet another cow. Praise the rng-gods!

My scout moved westwards to scout around the river. I see a likely city #2 spot on the PH west of the scouts location, this will take the corn and be instantly connected.
Scout will now move 2NE to the forested hill to gain information of possible city sites sharing the resources that way.

Haven't met anyone yet. The jungle is just south of me and I spy coast to the NE.
Regarding techpath, I think agri -> AH is the way to go here. And this could be one of those situations where I could postpone BW to sneak in a quick writing first as there is plenty of hammers from them cows.

Anyone has other thoughts or ideas?

 

[krikav]

My current habit on T0-T5 is to move the starting unit in a way that maximizes the possibility of meeting someone, if first tech is something every AI has (like agri here, since you gain a bonus when teching a tech someone you've met knows), especially when starting with a scout. Only then
revert to "normal duties" i.e. trying to find best city spots and trying to find the best fog busting spots. Of course, a very minor thing.

Thanks @sampsa
I have sort of adopted this habit too, sprinting the scout two moves diagonally in one direction for 3-4 turns right in the start. Not only can you gain a few beakers, but knowing the temperament of your immediate neighbour can really factor in on what techs you want first.
I didn't do this fully here though.

 

[sampsa]

Yes, agri-AH seems obvious, as does 2nd city site.

Postponing BW for early writing, maybe. Seems reasonable having two cottageable green river tiles and enough to get the library fast.

 

[krikav]

I'm not really sure, there is alot of forest... And since many resources are already riverside I think the risk of a commerce trap from Agri->AH->BW isn't as big.

But if early writing, you think that I should get pottery first too? I didn't think about that, but it looks like the worker would get mighty bored with only roading if I skimp pottery though.
Ofcourse the worker can farm the grasslands at city #2 though...

Early worker movement, Corn, then road NW of capital (likely to get much traffic there) and then go green cow-> brown cow?
I never learn how many turns it usually takes to get AH when you have both prereqs, is it 11 turns?

Won't play more tonight, but will take a look tomorrow!

 

[sampsa]

I'm not really sure, there is alot of forest... And since many resources are already riverside I think the risk of a commerce trap from Agri->AH->BW isn't as big.

You also need mining though.

But if early writing, you think that I should get pottery first too? I didn't think about that, but it looks like the worker would get mighty bored with only roading if I skimp pottery though.

Well, I wouldn't skip pottery (love them green river cottages) and with access to granaries, +1 from ivory I'd think whipping and chopping just become too good to pass on. So I guess forget that early writing thing. Also, need to put that weak wheel tech into use somehow. If we started with mining, agri-AH-BW would be kinda clear IMO, but now... maybe even go pottery 3rd, which sounds weird, but having lots of food growing on those cottages is pretty good. I assume you are not planning to go archery, since AGG? That would be another delay. Of course horse/copper would settle that.

Early worker movement, Corn, then road NW of capital (likely to get much traffic there) and then go green cow-> brown cow?
I never learn how many turns it usually takes to get AH when you have both prereqs, is it 11 turns?

I don't know this by heart and of course the -output varies a bit. With two prereqs, you need to generate 9 to gain a bonus of +4 (because of the hidden +1. 9+1=10 and 40% of that is exactly 4). 12 to gain +5 (12+1=13 13*0,4=5,2).

I suppose a typical -output would be +8 palace, +1 city center, +1 worked tile. That means 10, +1 default, +4 prereq-bonus. With these assumptions you gain 15 towards AH per turn. It costs 169 on deity, so the correct answer seems to be 12T. But wait, your capital has already grown to size 2 at this point so you are working another tile, which likely is +1.

Oh and since you first tech agri, there may be overflow from that tech. Agri has no pre-reqs, costs 101 and since we produce 10+1 per turn there is actually 9 overflow from that. Umm no, 1st ring had no +1 tile. Borders pop on T3 (creative), so three first turns only 9+1. 6 overflow from agri. You will gain +1 when size 2, but it won't be in time to shave off another turn.

tl;dr AH will take 11T and thus be completed on T21, final answer.

Worker is out T12, T13 forest, T14-18 improving corn, T19 move to forest, T20 road... no. No time for that road it seems, so straight towards grass cow after corn it is, waste a turn roading on cow I guess since there might be a city location up north.

 

[krikav]

Thanks for those calculcations @sampsa , very generous of you. Now I might have a shot at acually learning them too.

I'm almost always one off when counting workerturns, but isn't the worker already done at T12? That would mean T12 forest, T13-T17 corn, T18Forest T19-20road.
If this is the case, there seems to be time to make one road, but not in the location I would really want it, as I can only place it adjacent to the cow.
I'll check what it says when I have finished agriculture.

Have to climb that dangerous hill with the scout NW/NE of cow/cow to see if that area might hold the true spot for city #2, and if that's the case, the road should probably be on that hill, it's outside culture but with creative it will be inside soon.

I think you are right whith regards to pottery, with BW also requiring mining it's a substantial investment as mining itself dosen't do me any good.
Alot of things depend on locations of horses though, and if I meet some AIs.
If a pushover shows up, and i pop horses in a reasonable location I probably consider writing as third tech again, but can think and discuss that @ AH.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T5->T21 (Agri -> AH) :

I realize that I forgot to check demographics on T1 and T3, not sure how much I can get from this now at T5 but I take a screenshot to keep it anyway, and for anyone interested.
876 land tiles, I have no clue if that is large or small.

The scout climbs the hill and have tremendeous luck that it doesn't encounter a barb archer as is normal.
The scout even wins the lion fight at 80% odds and gets the name "Lionkiller" as a badge of honor.

A pair of clams is revealed, can't be grouped together in one city. Not sure how to think about city placement here, my previous c2 mark I think still holds, don't want to detour to fishing as well, but good to know that there are possible city sites available, the land to the west was abit dissapointing.

T9 Buddhism is founded, and T10 I meet this lovely lady! This tilts me a tiny bit more to early writing, as I suspect that the second i would open borders, she would start spamming missionaries which could slow down her possible expansion abit, and religion certainly doesn't hurt to have.

More lions appear, and I send my scout to stand on the corn and heal. (A mistake, a 0.3hp scout is just as good at defending against barbs as a 1hp scout)

I notice espionage-point parity with Isabella, she has likely not met anyone else. This could be semi-iso, or I'm stuck inbetween her and some AIs to the south of the jungle.

Isabella sent a scout past my culture, and I haven't seen it since, either it's exploring abundant land or it just got killed by a panther.
Still EP parity with isabella, so that scout likely have not met any AI.
There is horses available, I only saw the western one first and it's location annoyed me greatly as I can't get it with a corn-sharing city. I also again bash myself for not taking the extra half-turn to scout that last unrevealed possible fish-site out in the ocean. I'm saved by a cultural pop in 4t though.
A barb archer spawned at where I first had c2 marked, but now I'm more inclined to go abit north, new c2 location does require road and have no freshwater, but it shares more tiles and grabs the horse too.
Long term it really makes the land west of capital marginal though, as there is no more room for any city sharing the corn there.

I'm going for a barracks first and I do intend fighting this out with warriors, the terrain is kind of advantageous for warrior defense, and I estimate that I have enough production to outproduce any barb invasions.
I have only seen one single scout of Isabella though, so things might get out of hand.

Oh, there was time to make a road, I ended up doing it 1N of capital, as that will enable a speedy movement of settler/worker up to the hills north. I would have prefered having it NW of capital but the timing didn't work out.

Still abit torn about techpath now...
I don't think mining->bw is right here, capital has nice natural production and I have seen no great urgency to claim land asap, although that might change now that I'm scouting abit toward Isabella.

Pottery would provide the useful discount toward writing, and getting two cottages down on that riverside early would be really sweet. Partially because they seem unlikely to be accessed by any helper city.
And having the capital have the granary as a hammersink would be really good, as I can only produce so many warriors usefully.
The benefits of the granary I think are quite marginal at this point in the game, as the capital will probably be stagnant at long periods of time soon, and slavery is still miles away.

But writing first would also give me access to two specialists early on for a quicker burst in teching, and open up possibilities with a GSci in a while. And if this does sent Isabella into full tilt spamming missionaries that would be really good too.
And I probably want to become a buddhist sooner rather than later, as she does plot at pleased and the road to friendly isn't that far away if we share faith.

I don't see any point in being aggressive against Isabella early on.

Anyone has thoughts or useful feedback?
Will likely play another turnset later tonight depending on activity here.

 

[cseanny]

I also like the Pottery to Writing path best. Likewise, agreed that you seem to have time for expansion, so no rush. My vote is to grow to size 5 while making 3 warriors. Looks like the timing should work out like: @size 4 work 1 plains hill forest, the corn, 1st cow, and 1 2f/1h tile for 1 turn. Next turn remove the ph forest tile and replace it with a 1f/2h forest tile until the 2nd cow is finished. That "should" get you a 3rd warrior (2t left on 3rd warrior and 2t left to grow) at exactly size 5. So 4 warriors to scout/fogbust should be fine til pasture is hooked up.

@size 5 Settler, Settler, (binary) Library. 1st Worker improves 1st cow, 2nd cow, 1 cottage, 1 road (new city), 1 cottage, road for 1t towards horse, pasture, and then finish pasture hook ups. I suppose the rest will depend on what you scout and if Izzy is putting EP on someone else or not. It couldnt hurt to throw down a 3rd cottage and mull over the idea of running some scientist at size 6. Guess you'd work the cows, 2 cottages, and 2 scientist? Maybe que up a settler (12 or 13t)??

Again, cant say much more w/out seeing more land and the neighbor situation.

 

[Fippy]

I would go for chariots, c1 ones with cheap barracks usually do well against barb archers and your nice agg warriors can defend against Spears if they show.
1se of horsies looks like a good second city, sharing cows works better than sharing corn here as well eventually (+1 happy cap).

Land towards Izzy looks rather poor, no food so i agree with delaying BW cos no need for fast rex.
Fishing - pottery - writing?

 

[krikav]

Oh! Thank you so much for your advices!

@cseanny I don't follow "Settler, Settler, (binary) library".
I have no idea how you can know already the exact hammers and turns of warriors, my intuition (and counting ability) isn't on that level really.
If I can, I do try to line things up so that I finish the last warrior that I need with abit of overflow that will be put into the settler next turn.

@Fippy I often forget about chariots, and have done so now too, thanks for reminding me! There is alot of lasting value in a few chariots too.
Fishing before pottery for maximum discount would be nice, but I'm worried that I am queuing up way too many things before BW, even though there is no immediate rush, getting those abundant forests into settlers/workers shouldn't wait too long I think.

All:
Any thoughts on settler->settler or settler->worker? I often find myself in situations where I'm really streching it when it comes to having few workers.

No takers for early writing to get OB with Isabella to get a caravan of missionaries? Am I putting too much thought and focus on long term diplo here?
I would hate to get in a situation where she settles a city close to me, and get border tensions and drop down to annoyed, as that would more or less force me to gift her a city to even get OB.

 

[krikav]

@Fippy
Oh, I now realize that you suggested an alternative city spot, SE of the horses grabbing one of the clams.
You think this is superior to the PH 3 tiles west that I marked out?

I do get the horses under culture very quick due to cre, and I get a extra hammer and block abit more land toward Isabella.
It can also share both food sources which I think is nice, but it doesn't claim any new food as the clam site would.

Close to both of the two clams I see two desert tiles that I think fits well as city centers, and I kind of want to delay them abit.

 

[Fippy]

I like a city with clams first better yep, can be independant of capital food later.
So a corn sharing city west (your very first marker i think) stays an option, with no food being there, while you still get horsies ready for barbs.

Fishing would be almost free, with discounting pottery.
So basically you are not queuing up more techs before BW or writing, just taking advantage of discounts on useful techs.

 

[krikav]

Your suggested city spot does aid the future western area greatly, thats true.
And that cities can work independantly of capital food is also very good.

I might not get to BW much later, but I do get pottery later and that will effect how I need to think with settler. Perhaps settler earlier is better, to open up the horse for pasture earlier.
Will consider this option more, likely to play in 2-3 hours time or so.

But going fishing first seems like the safest option, in 4 turns time I'll get borderpop and the scout will have covered more area, so best city spots will become clearer.

 

[sampsa]

I'm almost always one off when counting workerturns, but isn't the worker already done at T12? That would mean T12 forest,

Ah yes, I'm not shocked I made a silly mistake. So yep, 2T time for road.

I'm torn between your suggestion and Fippy's suggestion for 2nd city. A coastal 2nd city would go nicely with with your original c2-spot, later. So yes, in this case you'd need to go fishing, too. Coast offers not only clam but some emergency 12-tiles. Fishing costs 67 but gives ~15 bonus towards pottery. So fishing is a roughly 5T delay, but makes it easy to acquire more .

Your c2-spot makes sense, too. I have learned to fear the barbs on such deity maps, but maybe chariots aren't even better than AGG barracked warriors, so I guess horse plays a minor role. Cities 3 and 4 could go coastal and the eastern one shares 3 cottages. See nothing wrong with this either.

Tech path will be intriguing and I'm curious to see what you pick! Fishing-pottery-writing is indeed interesting, but certainly not the only sensible option.

 

[sampsa]

Any thoughts on settler->settler or settler->worker? I often find myself in situations where I'm really streching it when it comes to having few workers.

Depends if you have BW or not. I nearly always go 2 workers and chop asap, but without chopping 1 worker is enough for quite some time.

No takers for early writing to get OB with Isabella to get a caravan of missionaries? Am I putting too much thought and focus on long term diplo here?

Oh yes, I think it changes a lot. Getting an early religion and putting her on missionary spam mode would be excellent.

 

[krikav]

Ok, this isn't that important, but since the topic is up...
Since I get 10bpt, having pottery before I go writing gains me 2 beakers extra per turn I tech writing.
w/o pottery, I would get 12bpt and finish writing in 17 turns, (202/12 = 16.83), overflow is reverted to base I assume? So 0.17*10= 1 beaker overflow?
If teching with pottery, I would instead gain 14 bpt when teching writing, and finish it in 202/14= 14.43 turns (15 turns and ) 0.57*10= 5 beakers overflow?
So base beakers saved is 2 full turns (20beakers) and 4 more gained via overflow.
Perhaps overly complicated way to calculate it, but is it about right?

I'm very much inclined to go with the clams spot and start fishing, mostly because it's not what I came up with myself, and if I'm serious with learning I shouldn't constantly do what I always do.

Super early writing is an idea that I got married to early on in this map, and playing alone I would 100% certainly have gone down that route. I often do that, I get some ideas and try to force them on the map, more often than not it's to my disadvantage.

 

[krikav]

I have lost quite abit of fear for barbs lately. I find that if you are simply willing to go out on a limb and be prepared to put your expansion plans on hold if things go south and just spam warriors, you are fine in amost all circumstances. And you likely never have to build more than like 8-10 warriors tops (4 of which you would want anyway), so even in worst cases you don't really spend more hammers on warriors than you would spend beakers into archery. And thats not counting the hammers you need to invest into archers too.
Terrain dictates alot, on an open field without rivers/hills/forest warriors are almost worthless.

But we will see, would be funny if I get completely overrun by barbs and die now.

 

[sampsa]

Since I get 10bpt, having pottery before I go writing gains me 2 beakers extra per turn I tech writing.

Gaining +2 is correct, but when the top left corner shows +10, you are actually generating 11, due to the hidden beaker.

w/o pottery, I would get 12bpt and finish writing in 17 turns, (202/12 = 16.83), overflow is reverted to base I assume? So 0.17*10= 1 beaker overflow?

So it's really 202/13 ~15,5T. This assumes your will stay at 10 though, which is not correct. Then overflow reverted to base, meaning overflow beakers divided by 1,2 (due to 20% bonus).

And you likely never have to build more than like 8-10 warriors tops

Yeah, and AGG promoted warriors are almost a different unit than a normal warrior...