a great problem: Persians are not arabs!

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Didn't the Ancient Greeks say 'kai' instead of 'ke' ? (non-Greek people learn to pronounce it like 'kai' at school, even though I never followed Ancient Greek) Why else than it being a linguistic fossil is it spelled like that ?
I do assume, however, that Greek people also learn Ancient Greek at school, but probably feel uncomfortable with the older pronunciations and that's why they pronounce it like they do their Modern Greek.

Also, I do agree the pronunciation sounds unnatural. Same with the Latin of Augustus Caesar. It's possible to speak it in a less stiff and basic way (too simple language).
With Latin people also feel uncomfortable to pronounce every 'c' before a soft vowel (i, e) like a 'k', by the way. In Modern Latin (used to be spoken by erudites in the past, nowadays still by a few people) people don't pronounce it like in Classical Latin, but rather like an 's' or a 'sh' (just like in Romance languages).
 
I'm offended because Caesar speaks to me in Latin like I was his fishmonger or fuller. The Romans spoke Greek in the Senate or to other educated men.

The romans most certainly did not speak greek in the Senate. Certainly not in Augustus' time anyway. Greek was used as a cultural language, and to discuss philosophy and literature, but definitively not for matters of state.

That said, in foreign relations with other leaders, the Romans probably did speak greek, but only because it was the lingua franca.
 
To my french ears, Napoleon speak really good french, with absolutely no accent.




thats what i was saying when i said he wasnt really French

Well, actually, Napoleon was really french. He certainly had a corsican accent.
Remember that by that time, regional languages were far more spoken than today and a noble from Provence or Brittany certainly speak with their strong native accent ! Many people from Vendée or Auvergne or anywere else actually spoke with their native regional language and could certainly not even speak a word of "french".


About Darius, and Ramses, I was a bit surprised at first to hear them because their tongues look really like Arabic. I must say I really like Darius and the way he speak.

Actually, I love to hear all the different leaders with their native language !
 
Well, actually, Napoleon was really french. He certainly had a corsican accent.

He was born in the French Kingdom, yes. Corsica however, was recently annexed to France. Before it used to be independent shortly, and even more before it belonged to the Republic of Genoa. If it didn't become independent, it was likely to end up Italian.

Napoleon, being of lower nobility, also didn't speak that much dialect (Corsican), but more Italian. Until late in the 19th century Italian was the lingua franca of the upper class in Corsica.

About Napoleon being French. He was officially French, but in his early life he hated France and wanted Corsica to be independent. He even got into conflict with his father, because he didn't share his independent dreams and worked his way up through his many French connections. He also studied Corsican history before he could accept his French citizenship later on.
I wonder how much this had played a role in his climbing up ranks and eventually associating himself with France, becoming emporer/dictator of a country he has forcibly become attached to. I think it made him more ambitious, and as he grew an adult he got swept in the maelstrom of the French Revolution, which made him realize the relativity of the concept of a nation and learned to think bigger.

Also, don't forget this, in France it was since recently and until this day a taboo to cultivate other standard languages than French. Corsicans are allowed to cultivate Corsican language, but not Italian. That would be perceived as 'being less loyal to France' (to say it crudely). No one forbids individuals to do this anymore, yet in the minds of people the taboos are still present to this day. You also have this in French-Flanders where it's a taboo to cultivate Dutch or in the Alsace where it's a taboo to cultivate German. Instead they are allowed, within a certain limit to cultivate their dialects only.
 
I'm not promoting Corsican or any other separatism, by the way. I'm just saying that Napoleon was very likely to have had Standard Italian as his mother tongue, with a Corsican accent. Indeed, in his campaign in Italy he never had problems speaking to the people, for he was a fluent Italian speaker.

The way I see it, much of our thinking is still influenced in the light of past and on-going European modernist propaganda. Also my thinking is. :)
 
I hope Willem van Oranje will not speak french but dutch, allthough probably he would have spoken french in diplomatic talks. This way i can understand Great Cyrus. (welcome back Great Cyrus!)
 
In this intense debating about French and Dutch and Aramaic languages and such, I'm sure my wee little comment will go unnoticed, but I wanted to say one thing:

I liked Nobunaga's Japanese. First time I've heard native Japanese in a Western product (besides Inception, which, a minute in, became my favorite movie of the year cuz of Watanabe Ken and real Japanese actors). Yeah, he said some funny phrases and it was bad, but in an endearing, puppy-trying-really-hard-to-get-out-of-the-basket way.

No complaints. :)
 
hey mister i dont accept your stupid writers, ok?
when alexander has burned all our book where you were?
who is barbaric? you or us? listen to me
our languages we used is hakhamaneshi ,pahlavi , parsi
its notimportant what you say to this 3 language cuz your not immportant.
dont want you say me what i shoud read.

Please do research before you go around yelling. Why don't you support your argument with some links?:)
 
Let's get one thing straight with all this language talk. Until the mid 18th century, with the rise of nationalistic sentiment, there has never really existed the idea of an "official language." The latter was created as means of generating and supporting a national identity. Most of the nations we are referring to in Civ had no official languages during their golden age the courtiers of the age often didnt even speak the local vernaculars (the "peasant" languages). Indeed many nations today have more than one official language and many residents are very multilingual People used which ever languages were best for communicating with that particular person.

Here are a few examples

Katherine of Russia was born in central germany and spoke german and learned french -thus at her court these languages predominated.

Napoleon may have been corsican and spoke Italian at but this wouldn't be unusual as france of the mid 18th century had no standard french and even the langue d'oc in the south was almost incomprehensible to many parisians, as was gascon.

Many posters have pointed out that in ancient Rome many patricians spoke both Greek and Roman regularly.

The english court in the high middle ages used french as its working language.

The court of Mattias Corvinus used Latin, not hungarian.

Modern Mandarin (while predominant in china today) was a minority language that got popular at court; but China today has perhaps 20 languges with have little intercompehensibility. (there is NO language called Chinese!!)

Finally the USA has no official language at all!

The point I am making is that arguments about what language was spoken by whom and where - in historical sense if largely pointless as the language you spoke did not have the cultural and political overtones of today. In fact the rulers of many nations in history often had close advisors, generals, and even lovers who were not from that nation. Nationality had no meaning only personal loyalty did. The language folks spoke has value to anthropologists and linguists, but it should not take away from their contribution to history or put in question their identities.

Thus anyone making a stink out this language issue is, I'm sorry to say, just picking a nationalism bone and is imposing, on the past, a modern notion that simply didn't exist then. I understand some folks have a lot of national pride but seriously swallow it - and move on.

Rat
 
Let's get one thing straight with all this language talk. Until the mid 18th century, with the rise of nationalistic sentiment, there has never really existed the idea of an "official language." The latter was created as means of generating and supporting a national identity. Most of the nations we are referring to in Civ had no official languages during their golden age the courtiers of the age often didnt even speak the local vernaculars (the "peasant" languages). Indeed many nations today have more than one official language and many residents are very multilingual

History isn't that lineair. The Romans really did their best effort into promoting Latin over every other language. Darius I also really made Aramaic the official language.
It was with the fall of the Roman Empire Latin began to decline among the population, as well as literarcy and well as many other things of their civilization.


Katherine of Russia was born in central germany and spoke german and learned french -thus at her court these languages predominated.

True. Her native language was indeed German. At the court she indeed spoke French. She learned Russian to speak with her personel also.

Napoleon may have been corsican and spoke Italian at but this wouldn't be unusual as france of the mid 18th century had no standard french and even the langue d'oc in the south was almost incomprehensible to many parisians, as was gascon.

Napoleon, however, really admired Pasquale Paoli, and even dreamed of kicking the French out of Corsica one day. His admiration of Paoli, even made him disliked by his fellow students (who also made fun of his accent). He went to the military school as a lower nobleman with higher classed collegues.
He later outgrew his Corsican indepentist sympathy. Be aware that Corsica didn't ask for France to invade a few decades earlier. Especially the Corsican elites were divided on the recent French rule, not the peasant.

France was developing a standard French since the Middle Ages, by the way. Of course there also where many oïl dialects and oc dialects. There were also other minority languages like German, Dutch (yes there are writers in these standard languages, standard language are older than official spellings) a.s.o. and their peasant dialects also.
French spelling become regulated since the 18th century, but that doesn't mean standard French didn't existed among the elites. The common people indeed didn't speak it yet. That neither mean this was the first advent of a common people to start to learn a standard language.

Many posters have pointed out that in ancient Rome many patricians spoke both Greek and Roman regularly.

In Ancient Rome, did you know, soldiers were generally able to read and write ? Standard Latin was a very strong language, and at worst was spoken in its vulgar form by common people. Only when the empire declined the language deteriorated.
While a harsh life they had, the Romans had a highly developed civilization compared to those of the Western Dark Ages. I think you are underestimating the Ancient era.

Romans took the spread of their language very seriously. It's not because they came before the Dark Ages, people didn't have official languages (or something alike). History works cyclical, not linearly.

Modern Mandarin (while predominant in china today) was a minority language that got popular at court; but China today has perhaps 20 languges with have little intercompehensibility. (there is NO language called Chinese!!)

There are even more languages in China. Nowadays Mandarin is the most dominant one. Cantonese is offereing some resistance due to Hong Kong being influential, but Mandarin seems to be winnign the plea. The Chinese government is doing its best nowadays to get as many people to speak Mandarin as possible.

Finally the USA has no official language at all!

True, but English is de facto the 'official language'.

The point I am making is that arguments about what language was spoken by whom and where - in historical sense if largely pointless as the language you spoke did not have the cultural and political overtones of today.

Maybe in the First Millenium AD, but at wasn't always so.

Thus anyone making a stink out this language issue is, I'm sorry to say, just picking a nationalism bone and is imposing, on the past, a modern notion that simply didn't exist then. I understand some folks have a lot of national pride but seriously swallow it - and move on.

Also, civilizations (not necessarely language related) existed and nations of those as well and yes they competed with each other. That doesn't imply nationalism. It worked way more abstractly. This even went beyond language at many occasions as common people had even less of a say. Modern nationalism is indeed a recent invention.

You have to be naive to think that elite didn't care about which nation they belonged to before nationalism and they sought ways of spreading there influence. Language, as always is a powerful tool for it.
 
I am not going to get hung up on arguing specifics of each nation and situation. The simple point I am making is the IDEA of a national language as reflection of identity and ethnicity is modern construct. That doesnt mean that languages like Greek, Latin, French or Greman didnt have some cultural value, but historically they did NOT have the same importance to identity that they do today.

Moreover, I suspect that worldwide over the course of history, it was likely that many people spoke, and continue to speak, more than one language or dialect. Only in the last 2 centuries or with the state control of education and the political focus on single unified language. over a geographic area has created monolingual societies. Hence the question "which language did so so speak" should more likely phrased "which languages did they speak?"

This makes the debate moot as identifying one specific leader or ethnic population with a single language is generally straw man argument. It assumes the modern preudo-precept of single language as is a universal identifier of ethnic and racial identity is true.

Rat
 
Well if Darius speaks his diplomatic language of Aramaic, it would only be fitting to have Catherine speak her French.

What bugs me the most is how Napoleon (and I think Caesar) use the informal "tu" like they're speaking to a child or inferior.
 
I wonder how much this had played a role in his climbing up ranks and eventually associating himself with France, becoming emporer/dictator of a country he has forcibly become attached to. I think it made him more ambitious, and as he grew an adult he got swept in the maelstrom of the French Revolution, which made him realize the relativity of the concept of a nation and learned to think bigger.

This kind of background is seen in some other notorious worldleaders aswell.

Stalin - Georgia
Hitler - Austria
Alexander - Macedonia
Khomeini - India

I think you are right in saying that because of their background they were always more ambitious.

But I would like to add to that the fact that they were leaders to people who in the end were not "their own" people. Because of this they pushed the limits of their power further and weren't afraid to compromise the safety of the nation.
 
Tell that to Great Cyrus he keeps saying that is impossible. I don't really care I just found it very funny that in all the threads about this topic people never seem to agree on this. One says this, the other something completely different. It seems to me that people who are from modern day Persia especially seem to disagree that they ever spoke Aramaic in Persia.

I am just having a little fun with it all.

By the way, Persian or Aramaic as second language? What was their first :confused:

you like i keep on to speaking?!!
i thing that the problem is accent!. his accent is arabic
the first language is the old persian
listen to me in sasanid periud we have a official and very standard language to name "avestayi" but very our people dont accept his language and they used of middle persian.
 
Well if Darius speaks his diplomatic language of Aramaic, it would only be fitting to have Catherine speak her French.

What bugs me the most is how Napoleon (and I think Caesar) use the informal "tu" like they're speaking to a child or inferior.

Katherine didn't speak french exclusively, she used German a lot and Russian on occassion, she even knew some Polish. These leaders were not monolingual,; thus having her speak Russian is fine.

Well in Bony's defense the popular slang among youth in french is to use tu almost exclusively. yeah but it does sound tacky. I just chalk it up to bad translation.

Rat
 
you like i keep on to speaking?!!
listen to me in sasanid periud we have a official and very standard language to name "avestayi" but very our people dont accept his language and they used of middle persian.

The Sassanid period was over 700 years after Darius. FYI I dont see how that invalidates Darius speaking Aramaic, among other languages. Secondly, If you have been reading the thread, you would have noted that we pointed out many times that the languages of the court were not necessarily those of the common people.

Rat
 
Well in Bony's defense the popular slang among youth in french is to use tu almost exclusively. yeah but it does sound tacky. I just chalk it up to bad translation.

Rat

This makes me wonder if theyll end up using 'tu' over 'su' when isabella is released
 
The Sassanid period was over 700 years after Darius. FYI I dont see how that invalidates Darius speaking Aramaic, among other languages. Secondly, If you have been reading the thread, you would have noted that we pointed out many times that the languages of the court were not necessarily those of the common people.

Rat

i am iranian. dont need you teach me my history
the sassanid preiud was a example.
 
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