Tigranes
Armenian
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2008
- Messages
- 10,422
@Autumn Leaf Can one win conquest victory as Greece with disabled Harrapa?
A Greece Game
- Thread starter Fresol
- Start date
Autumn Leaf
Since 1992
IDK - I had a couple of early Conquest victories in RFC but none yet in DoC. I haven't been playing DoC very long and this was the first Greek game where I flipped more than one Huluganni at the spawn, so it's also the first DoC game where I've tried to kill off the Chinese rather than just pillage their improvements to slow them down.
Funny thing is, I lost my savefile and had to start the game over using a backup from Turn 152 (Turn 50 in normal games). I clearly remember killing China on Turn 172 last time, but on this replay I couldn't even get my Hulus to China by then! I made about the same time getting across Asia, in fact a couple of turns faster since I didn't waste time manouvering west of Afrosiab to get a tribal village (this time I knew the village was there and I took it on the fly as I went by), but it's Turn 179 and my Hulugannis only just pulled up outside Chang'an. Maybe I razed Chang'an on Turn 182 last time, not 172, which would explain why I had such a massive city razing penalty when I checked my Stability. Fortunately Chang'an still has only one Warrior defending it. (I saw a Warrior who was possibly the one on the forested hill last time, heading north into the desert as I reached the border this time.)
This replay is already different in other ways. Last time round, the Harappan city Rehman Dheri had gone Independent and I gained some booty by razing it with the Hoplite who found it. This time Rehman Dheri is fine. However, the replay has reminded me that India has already spawned, so even if there was no Harappa, I would have to destroy India too.
Hold my beer - gonna fork the game, use WB to kill Harappa and India in the forked copy, and try for the early Conquest. I've got about 20 turns to do it in before Phoenicia spawns.
EDIT: The answer is yes and no. It's not enough to wipe out the major Civs, you also have to take down at least all the Independent cities too (there were no Barb owned cities at this point in this game so that part is unclear). Once you own all the cities in the world you get the Conquest.
Funny thing is, I lost my savefile and had to start the game over using a backup from Turn 152 (Turn 50 in normal games). I clearly remember killing China on Turn 172 last time, but on this replay I couldn't even get my Hulus to China by then! I made about the same time getting across Asia, in fact a couple of turns faster since I didn't waste time manouvering west of Afrosiab to get a tribal village (this time I knew the village was there and I took it on the fly as I went by), but it's Turn 179 and my Hulugannis only just pulled up outside Chang'an. Maybe I razed Chang'an on Turn 182 last time, not 172, which would explain why I had such a massive city razing penalty when I checked my Stability. Fortunately Chang'an still has only one Warrior defending it. (I saw a Warrior who was possibly the one on the forested hill last time, heading north into the desert as I reached the border this time.)
This replay is already different in other ways. Last time round, the Harappan city Rehman Dheri had gone Independent and I gained some booty by razing it with the Hoplite who found it. This time Rehman Dheri is fine. However, the replay has reminded me that India has already spawned, so even if there was no Harappa, I would have to destroy India too.
Hold my beer - gonna fork the game, use WB to kill Harappa and India in the forked copy, and try for the early Conquest. I've got about 20 turns to do it in before Phoenicia spawns.
EDIT: The answer is yes and no. It's not enough to wipe out the major Civs, you also have to take down at least all the Independent cities too (there were no Barb owned cities at this point in this game so that part is unclear). Once you own all the cities in the world you get the Conquest.
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Interesting strategy settling Corinth instead of Athens. I can see why you do that, but I like to settle Kyrene in Egypt (which I immediately rename Alexandria). Corinth cramps the Kyrene site and tries to steal its fish. If my Galley can reach the Bosphorus in one move I will wait a turn before settling Athenai and try to make Byzantion my capital, otherwise I just make Athenai on the spot and move my capital to Byzantion later (after completing the UHV).
FWIW my prefered sites in the Greek core are Athenai, Epidamnos, Byzantion, Halikarnassos and Knossos.That gives 5 cities in the core, 4 of them with excellent population and production, and even Knossos eventually grows big enough to help Stability for massive empires. Knossos flips to Arabia, but I evacuate it beforehand and 10 tuns later send a couple of Hoplites on a Galley to retake it. Halikarnassos flips to the Turks, but again it's just a case of evacuate beforehand, agree to the flip, wait 10 turns, then reconquer with an overwhelming army from Byzantion (which by the time the Turks arrive should be your capital).
View attachment 493220
The reason I settle Kyrene instead of 1E (the real Alexandreia site) is that Arabia's flipzone includes the Alexandreia site. Kyrene is one tile outside the flipzone. When I first capture Egypt I generally raze all the crappy AI cities except Diospolis Megale itself - it's just too expensive otherwise. Immediately before Arabia spawns, I withdraw all my Egyptian military to walled Kyrene, turning it into a massively overgarrisoned fortress that laughs at Camel Archers. Ten turns later I DoW (if Arabia hasn't already DoW'd me) and use that garrison to storm Egypt and recapture that corner of my empire in about 3 moves. Since the AI likes to settle Diospolis Megale one square further south than I would, Kyrene has unfettered access to Fish, Wheat, Dye and Cotton. With a Cottage on Siwa it turns into a very nice city by mid-game, despite missing out on the Marble (which Diospolis Megale works). For historical reasons I try to build both the Lighthouse and the Great Library (thankfully no longer UHV buildings) in my "Alexandria".
I'm currently playing a Marathon game (Regent level, not my usual Monarch; this is a recreational game), trying to make Greece into a world-spanning mega-empire, and by chance the game gave me a very similar start to yours (including two Huluganni) except that my Galley was in the Aegean not the Gulf. Settling Athenai on the spot gave my Galley access to the Gulf for a shorter run up to Epidamnos. I then ferried three Hoplites and one Warrior to Egypt on the Galley, meanwhile the two Huluganni went on a suicide run to harass China, capturing Babylon and Afrosiab en route (had to raze Afrosiab because early Stability; after achieving my UHV I rebuilt Marakanda 1W of the site as a northern fortress to hinder barbs and Mongols).
The Huluganni caught China napping, with just one Warrior in Chang'an and another standing on the forest hill north of the city. My Huluganni had gained a lot of experience and had lost little health from sacking cities and killing barbarians on the way. One killed the Forest Warrior on Turn 171 and the other razed Chang'an on Turn 172. I would have liked to keep it but such a large city so far away would have destroyed my Stability and my economy. I had to settle for eliminating China as a rival (and pillaging its territory for pocket money). So, by 20 turns into a Marathon game game I had eliminated Babylon, Egypt and China, leaving just friendly Harappa (I have both Harappa and Polynesia enabled for the AI). Once the 20 turn grace period ended, the overexpansion and city razing penalties tipped me into Unstable briefly until my core population grew, but since then my empire has never looked back.
Having AI Harappa in a Greek game is interesting. They're very friendly and often have useful techs they will trade to you, they hinder early India, but then they suddenly collapse and all their cities crumble to rubble around 775 BC! My cities Alexandreia Arachoton and Alexandreia tes Indias (founded well after the UHV) benefited from improvements the Harappans left behind.
The Greek UHV doesn't get easier on Marathon versus Normal speed. The issue is that you need all that early plunder from razing cities and pillaging AI improvements to finance a deficit budget to keep your research rate at or near 100%, but in a Marathon game that money must stretch three times as far. In a nutshell, it will run out well short of the UHV, forcing you to drop your research rate to avoid bankrupcy. If the tax rate hits 100% (easy to do if you have too many cities) you're probably screwed. The Romans will eat you up while your cities strike. Diospolis Megale and Babylon are all you need prior to 330 BC since the territorial UHV specifies you need to control Egypt, Bablyon, Phoenicia and Persia in 330 BC. Taking e.g. Tyros or Hierusalem too early merely costs you research money. You may have no choice if Persia declares war on you, otherwise bide your time.
Low research (short of bankrupcy) doesn't stop you controlling all the UHV territories and building all the UHV Wonders (you only need to get as far as Metal Casting and Aesthetics to complete the Wonders UHV), but if your research flags and you don't harass or eliminate China and Rome then they can easily discover one of the three UHV techs before you. Fortunately no rival spawns with any of the UHV techs until the Japanese in 530 AD, so if you can hinder your rivals enough and stay stable, you can probably make it. That's the real secret to the Greek UHV - keep your enemies weak, keep no unecessary cities, and be patient. There's plenty of time after 250 BC to become an unstoppable colossus.
If you exploit Greece's UP to farm Great People and hold a perpetual golden age? You just need to make sure all your food cities have beuildings to farm the great people and focus farming during the golden ages. Maybe rush the Mausoleum before beginning the very first golden age. I think Yutien had done it before.
Enyavar
Prince
- Joined
- May 16, 2015
- Messages
- 517
This playthrough of Greece (DoC v.1.15, Monarch, Normal Speed) is based on a China flip.
You heard it right! If you play Greece in 1.15, China will invariably out-tech you, hard, regardless of your difficulty level. So, instead of failing UHV goal 1, you can start the 3000 scenario as China and totally ruin them.
I did this by moving the Chinese starting settler just a little to the west, and collected a few goodie huts on the way through Asia. By the time the curious Chinese settlers reached their destination, they had already collected 44 gold and 2 warriors as an escort. They then settled Tianjin at a funny crossing place between two landmasses and two oceans, at a good spot with much fish. Then, they built another archer, and were never (ever!) heard of again. Really mysterious.
So, founding order: Athenai (AI SiP) and Epidamnos. That same turn 51, I also changed civics to Despotism and Redistribution. In turn 52, Tianjin flipped, with two warriors, a scout and two archers. The scout was sent after European huts, the rest of the entire Chinese forces marched to Babylonia. Also, the single Huluganni and three Hoplites were ferried to the Levante coast. The entire army merged at the gates of Babylon, razed Ninua/Ninive in the northeast from there, and then stormed Babilû/Babylon, leaving only the Pyramids and the granary intact. Survivors included the Huluganni and two Hoplites, nobody else. That campaign ended in the early 60ish turns. Two units were ferried back directly to the Egyptian coast. Once there was a barrack (build order: archer, later swordsmen and hoplites) in the queue of Babylon, the remaining Hoplite was also ferried to Egypt, leaving Babylon defenseless for a few turns. Nothing bad happened.
In Egypt, the next campaign was conducted in the late 60ish and entire 70ish turns: There were three cities along the Nile. The northernmost Ineb-Hedj (Memphis) got a raze, increasing my instability. So the southern-most, Abu-Simbel was captured and released into independence a few turns later. [Razing it would have sent my stability rating to hell, causing me to lose Babylon!]. I had left the entire way between Simbel and their capital Niwt-Rst free, allowing them to recapture it. The Egyptians (five archers, one militia) weren't fooled and sat still in their besieged capital. I finally defeated them, when the reinforcements from Greece were ferried over - all three militiamen. Back in my three core cities, one single archer was left, in Babylon another archer was in the making. So it took ~10 turns and careful safeloading until I had Egypt defeated and Niwt-Rst was renamed as Diospolis Megale. They got me the Sphinx, too. Survivors this time, were the Huluganni General and the two elite Hoplites.
But the military aspect was only one part of my early game. Back at home, my workers (two start, three captured, two built) had improved the wine, the marble, the iron and the copper at Epidamnos, connecting them all with roads. These improvements were just finished when I finally conquered Egypt. I had built mostly granaries, work boats, but also barracks, pagan temples and monuments. To maximize whipping effects, I micromanaged build orders every round.
Tech-wise, I had focused on Bloomery (catapulting me into the Classic Era shortly after capturing Babylon) and on Construction (timing this with my building of the Oracle in Athenai, so I could snatch Literature and Concrete, for Collossus in Athenai). Next was Calendar (finished in t84), for Mathematics.
The deadline for conquering Persia and Phoenicia is turn 119, so I figured it was time to finally build stuff up for at least 20 turns: Settle (rich) Alexandriapolis (Kem Kaisir) in Northern Egypt and (core) Halikarnassos in Ionia, develop population in the home cities as quick as possible to maintain a positive expansion balance, grow the core cities big and fat. Meanwhile, spam cottages in Egypt and Mesopotamia, connect the Egyptian horses, and whip up the armies that will conquer Alexander's Empire.
But everything turned out differently: I never got to settle Alexandria (doing so wouldn't have helped much, anyway, I think).
In turn 92, after a begging-peace treaty ran out, I turned on Phoenicia and conquered Sur (Týros). They marauded the fishing grounds near Athenai, then were willing to make peace in t94 (right before their shock elephants arrived at the Nile... Phew.). With research of Philosophy ongoing, I was preparing the biggest war ever: Persia. Just one look at Shush kept me intimidated.
But luck would have it differently: Shortly after my victory over Phoenicia, Persia was busy leveling Yerushalim (Jerusalem) and the Hittite/Assurite barbarians in Turkey. Gee, thanks, but my military should be able to pick things up... um, right next turn! As he was sitting with a few severely wounded immortals in front of the Persian Qods (Jerusalem), I surprised Cyrus and destroyed his elite army within two turns. My swordsmen and a catapult were stationed at the gates of Shush, so he couldn't lead an attack on Babylon. The war was essentially over, except that I was broke and couldn't HOLD all the cities I wanted. So I camped at Qods, waiting out Cyrus' single militia there, and razed Shush. Cool city, but... nope.
You heard it right! If you play Greece in 1.15, China will invariably out-tech you, hard, regardless of your difficulty level. So, instead of failing UHV goal 1, you can start the 3000 scenario as China and totally ruin them.
I did this by moving the Chinese starting settler just a little to the west, and collected a few goodie huts on the way through Asia. By the time the curious Chinese settlers reached their destination, they had already collected 44 gold and 2 warriors as an escort. They then settled Tianjin at a funny crossing place between two landmasses and two oceans, at a good spot with much fish. Then, they built another archer, and were never (ever!) heard of again. Really mysterious.
Spoiler The Chinese are vanishing... :
So, founding order: Athenai (AI SiP) and Epidamnos. That same turn 51, I also changed civics to Despotism and Redistribution. In turn 52, Tianjin flipped, with two warriors, a scout and two archers. The scout was sent after European huts, the rest of the entire Chinese forces marched to Babylonia. Also, the single Huluganni and three Hoplites were ferried to the Levante coast. The entire army merged at the gates of Babylon, razed Ninua/Ninive in the northeast from there, and then stormed Babilû/Babylon, leaving only the Pyramids and the granary intact. Survivors included the Huluganni and two Hoplites, nobody else. That campaign ended in the early 60ish turns. Two units were ferried back directly to the Egyptian coast. Once there was a barrack (build order: archer, later swordsmen and hoplites) in the queue of Babylon, the remaining Hoplite was also ferried to Egypt, leaving Babylon defenseless for a few turns. Nothing bad happened.
In Egypt, the next campaign was conducted in the late 60ish and entire 70ish turns: There were three cities along the Nile. The northernmost Ineb-Hedj (Memphis) got a raze, increasing my instability. So the southern-most, Abu-Simbel was captured and released into independence a few turns later. [Razing it would have sent my stability rating to hell, causing me to lose Babylon!]. I had left the entire way between Simbel and their capital Niwt-Rst free, allowing them to recapture it. The Egyptians (five archers, one militia) weren't fooled and sat still in their besieged capital. I finally defeated them, when the reinforcements from Greece were ferried over - all three militiamen. Back in my three core cities, one single archer was left, in Babylon another archer was in the making. So it took ~10 turns and careful safeloading until I had Egypt defeated and Niwt-Rst was renamed as Diospolis Megale. They got me the Sphinx, too. Survivors this time, were the Huluganni General and the two elite Hoplites.
But the military aspect was only one part of my early game. Back at home, my workers (two start, three captured, two built) had improved the wine, the marble, the iron and the copper at Epidamnos, connecting them all with roads. These improvements were just finished when I finally conquered Egypt. I had built mostly granaries, work boats, but also barracks, pagan temples and monuments. To maximize whipping effects, I micromanaged build orders every round.
Tech-wise, I had focused on Bloomery (catapulting me into the Classic Era shortly after capturing Babylon) and on Construction (timing this with my building of the Oracle in Athenai, so I could snatch Literature and Concrete, for Collossus in Athenai). Next was Calendar (finished in t84), for Mathematics.
Spoiler So, turn 84, I had the following: :
The deadline for conquering Persia and Phoenicia is turn 119, so I figured it was time to finally build stuff up for at least 20 turns: Settle (rich) Alexandriapolis (Kem Kaisir) in Northern Egypt and (core) Halikarnassos in Ionia, develop population in the home cities as quick as possible to maintain a positive expansion balance, grow the core cities big and fat. Meanwhile, spam cottages in Egypt and Mesopotamia, connect the Egyptian horses, and whip up the armies that will conquer Alexander's Empire.
But everything turned out differently: I never got to settle Alexandria (doing so wouldn't have helped much, anyway, I think).
In turn 92, after a begging-peace treaty ran out, I turned on Phoenicia and conquered Sur (Týros). They marauded the fishing grounds near Athenai, then were willing to make peace in t94 (right before their shock elephants arrived at the Nile... Phew.). With research of Philosophy ongoing, I was preparing the biggest war ever: Persia. Just one look at Shush kept me intimidated.
But luck would have it differently: Shortly after my victory over Phoenicia, Persia was busy leveling Yerushalim (Jerusalem) and the Hittite/Assurite barbarians in Turkey. Gee, thanks, but my military should be able to pick things up... um, right next turn! As he was sitting with a few severely wounded immortals in front of the Persian Qods (Jerusalem), I surprised Cyrus and destroyed his elite army within two turns. My swordsmen and a catapult were stationed at the gates of Shush, so he couldn't lead an attack on Babylon. The war was essentially over, except that I was broke and couldn't HOLD all the cities I wanted. So I camped at Qods, waiting out Cyrus' single militia there, and razed Shush. Cool city, but... nope.
Spoiler Screenshots of the late Persian War :
Spoiler Goal fulfillment: :
Spoiler Alexander would complain... :
Sinsyne
Up is down,black is white
Instead of Halikarnassos settle two tiles north as your capital. With wet wheat, sheep, clam and two fish this city spot gets the most out of Redistribution and allows you to spam specialists.
Corinth is much better than Athens; the two extra production on the city tile is a huge boost in the early game and you get an extra fish in the BFC. Don't worry about Alexandria, you want as many food tiles worked by your core cities as possible to maximize your core population.
Corinth gives you six extra water tiles inside your core and only loses one that would be in Athens' BFC and none of your other core cities.
I have recently been contemplating using Athens and adding Sparta later but I think just Corinthos is the best route overall.
