A guide out of the swamp...

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Dogberry:
This is an interesting debate.. but it all rests on constructs that we as a society erect. In the "Natural World" the whole thing is quite devoid of meaning. We humans can imagine good.. therefore we can do it. We can also imagine evil & do it too. The choices are ours.. not that of any entity called "God" ... or by any names. Nor.. are the choices for evil defined by somebody called Satan... again these are mere constructs put there by generations of trial & error. We are still going through that trial & error period & most likely be doing so for the rest of humanity's existance.

So, you're Catholic, and you don't believe in either God or Satan? (I'm just checking.)

Originally posted by Dogberry:
The practice of Christianity is mostly good..the practioners are frequently something else. Of course they are mere men ( & women ) & given over to doubts & manipulation. However the the veil drops when you hear such things as "liberal-whacks", "commie/bastards" & yes .. even "right-wing, crackpots"... or calling fallible political leaders ... things like "Klinton" or mixing up the "Stars & Stripes" with the unfortunate racist symbol of the "Stars & Bars".

Never said I was perfect, did I?

Originally posted by Dogberry:
Telling little white lies about one's feelings about Capital Punishment ( a currently changing evangelical dogma ) .. causes the veil to drop a little further ..

Lies? Explain your accusation... I have renounced my support of a thing that I find unsupportable by my own arguments. I have denied myself the lie I liked, and embraced a distasteful truth. How is that a bad thing?

Originally posted by Dogberry:
Reverend.

Um, I don't have any sort of title. For one, the Bible doesn't allow them, Father, or Bishop, or Pope, or whoever you are.

Originally posted by Dogberry:
You might think that you are on a sacred mission here.. & the subject is worthy of discussion.. but I see the manipulation behind it. Tell me .. what is the worse ? The pedophile that rapes a child's body.. or the manipulator that rapes his mind ?

Ah, so I am a mind-raper who is lower than a pedophile because I feel that a strong moral compass is a good and wholesome thing. Interesting set of moral priorities you have there. Very interesting indeed.

Originally posted by Dogberry:
I recognise the need for these constructs.. but unlike the long lost worshippers of the Gods of Eygpt & Babylon .. I do not bow before them.

[sarcasm] Oh, that reminds me! I'm late for my Ra worship at the pyramids.[/sarcasm]

Originally posted by Dogberry:
Dog

Out of the swamps & into the jaws of Tyrants

Oh please already. Get off your high horse, pull the buggy off the Pretensiousness Turnpike, and get real.

I'd like the record to show that the demonizing personal attacks were begun by Dogberry.

[This message has been edited by FearlessLeader2 (edited June 28, 2001).]

 

[FearlessLeader2]

[quote-Originally posted by Magnus-]
Pop quiz time for Moral Absolutists:

You have shot a man and killed him - please state under which of the following conditions where this will be considered to be an Evil Act:

1. He was shooting at you[/QUOTE]

Ans: Good, (Self Defense) (DISCLAIMER: If 'he' was a cop trying to arrest or stop you during the course of you performing a criminal act, you are of course the person who needs to be stopped from doing evil, the cop is doing good by trying to stop you, and you are in the wrong to shoot back. (Then again, you're already doing evil, so I guess shooting a cop is no big thing for you at that point.))

[quote-Originally posted by Magnus-]
2. He was in the process of raping your wife.[/QUOTE]

Ans: Good, (Self Defense)

[quote-Originally posted by Magnus-]
3. He looked at you funny[/QUOTE]

Ans: Evil, of course(Unless you can prove that his funny look would somehow cause your death.)

[quote-Originally posted by Magnus-]
4. He was an enemy soldier invading your country and you were ordered to kill him.[/QUOTE]

Ans: Good, (Self Defense or Defense of others)

[quote-Originally posted by Magnus-]
5. You were inspecting a gun handed to you by a friend and it accidentally went off.[/QUOTE]

Ans: Neither. This is what is called an accident, not an action. No conscious choice went into this, so there is no good or evil involved.

[quote-Originally posted by Magnus-]
the answer? - ALL OF THE ABOVE![/QUOTE]
Remember to look before you leap, especially when jumping to conclusions.

[quote-Originally posted by Magnus-]
this is why M.A. is irrational and left to the simpleminded fanatics of the world. [/QUOTE]

I invite the audience to make whatever judgements it chooses.

 

[Magnus]

ahh but FL2, you are making relative judgements about each answer, because you are making comparisons - welcome to the fold of Relativism!

 

[Dogberry_Old]

If you are not manipulating & really sincere on doing a MA/MR .. comparision.. I apologise. I am sure that you know with your political "hot-talk" .. why I suspect otherwise. If you have sincerely changed your mind on the DP.. and this is not merely some tactical manuvuer as sanctioned by Pat Robertson & his crowd.. more power to you.

If you plan on eschewing the hate & fear messages, that I have seen posted elsewhere..then, why .. go ahead. You might even see me supporting your arguments, when I feel that your thinking is sound.

Of course I am not a Catholic in the strict sense.. but we ( Catholics ) all have a little of the Jesuit in us.

I have made you angry & with decent reason. Think of it as the thunderstorm that clears the dust & humidity out of the air.

Dog

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Magnus:
ahh but FL2, you are making relative judgements about each answer, because you are making comparisons - welcome to the fold of Relativism! <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/lol.gif" border=0>

Mrfle blibble noip? Welcome to the wonderful world of non-sequitirs based on outright lies.

Please tell me exactly where I made a relativist argument. You are making the mistake of thinking that because relativism agrees with a few points of absolutism, that those points are relativist. This is an erroneous assumption. They are merely points of overlap. Absolutism encompasses a great deal that relativism does not, and vice-versa.
Quit trying to cloud the issue with feeble, half-baked arguments based on faulty logic and disingenuity. I will call your bluffs every time.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Dogberry,
Thanks for the apology.

I am interested in a genuine debate, which is exceedingly hard to come by these days, with people like Magnus around(for a while there he was on Ignore, and he's rapidly approaching that state again, if he can't stick to actual issues and argue in good faith).

Feel free to read the entire thread, and see if I am serious or not. Take especial note of the MA/MR defintions of evil, as it pertains strongly to this thread.

 

[Dogberry_Old]

Magnus is alright..that fact that he bothers to respond.. shows that he is thinking about it. My advice to you, is to reply with as much charity as you can muster. If you can do this & still retain that strong edge that distinguishes those who are crisp in their thinking vs. the ineffectual .. consider it good training.

Dog

P.S. you must know that if I see any more of the hate talk & political hot-talk.. you & I will go to the mat. That is not to say that you cannot discuss politics.. just because the subject is philosophy & God. You surely can do better than sloganeering & trite, tired, right-wing catch phrases.

 

[Magnus]

Originally posted by FearlessLeader2:
I am interested in a genuine debate, which is exceedingly hard to come by these days, with people like Magnus around(for a while there he was on Ignore, and he's rapidly approaching that state again, if he can't stick to actual issues and argue in good faith).

LOL!

OK, go hide your head in the sand, FL2, I am amazed you are running from me. Some 'leader' you are. I always face my threats. I guess I am just too strong for you.

and yes, whenever you compare anything to anything else, it is making a relationship - thus proving that absolutism does not exist, as everything must be compared to something else to be validated. Nothing stands on its own.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Magnus:
LOL! <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/lol.gif" border=0> OK, go hide your head in the sand, FL2, I am amazed you are running from me. Some 'leader' you are. I always face my threats. I guess I am just too strong for you. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/king.gif" border=0>

and yes, whenever you compare anything to anything else, it is making a relationship - thus proving that absolutism does not exist, as everything must be compared to something else to be validated. Nothing stands on its own.

Provide a quote that supports your accusation, or quit making it.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Magnus:
LOL! <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/lol.gif" border=0> OK, go hide your head in the sand, FL2, I am amazed you are running from me. Some 'leader' you are. I always face my threats. I guess I am just too strong for you. <IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/king.gif" border=0>

Missed this part.

What? I'm supposed to stop the entire column, to swat at a fly that keeps buzzing in my beard? Puh-Leeze! Substance, man! Your arguments have none! Provide it, and I'll debate.

SIDE NOTE--
My challenge went unanswered for fourteen days. That speaks volumes.

 

[Magnus]

2 things:

1. I forgot about this thread.

2. I have decided it is pointless to argue about a belief system since belief is completely arbitrary and subjective.

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Heh. That's one of the more long-winded versions of 'Uncle!' I've heard in recent memory, but it'll do, pig, it'll do.

 

[Magnus]

I care not what you have to say. Your insults only serve to make you more worthless than I could have heretofore imagined. Have a nice pathetic life.

 

[Iroquois]

In regards to neurological insanity...

Isn't anyone who commits murder wacked?

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<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/Iroquois/Hi_angry.jpg" border=0><IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/Iroquois/SKULL.gif" border=0>
"I have brought the good tidings of Peace and Power from the Chief of the Sky Spirits to all people on earth. Bloodshed must cease in the land. The Good Spirit never intended that blood should flow between human beings. 'Yo-Hen. Yo-Hen." -De-ka-nah-wi-da

 

[FearlessLeader2]

Originally posted by Iroquois:
In regards to neurological insanity...

Isn't anyone who commits murder wacked?

No, not all of them, most are just plain evil.