a lightweight discussion of WW2 aerial ops and the like

[r16]

even in the later years there was no reason for the rift to be an abyss . Apart form it was fashionable at the time , the importance of the Maginot Line was a concept both Petain and de Gaull could agree on. The First World War had cost France dear , the 1917 mutinies had hown there was cleary a limit to what an army could take , and Germany would still be there, right on the doorstep . France needed a solution for the second one which was sure to come . ı am sure there will be many people to remind here that the Versaiiles treaty was expressly meant to prevent "the second time" , by stripping Germany clean . Well , Paris had it from grim experience that Continental Europe was too big for one state to control ; Napoleon was a genius yet his Armee Grande , while a glorious instrument , did not survive the decade when France believed world domination was finally at hand .

on the other hand the English way of getting people squabble , fight and die to let 3rd parties in was obviously a good principle to apply . The English way , not because Les Anglo-Saxons invented it or monopolized it , rather they were the best practitioners .

a resurgent Germany was inevitable , the problem was which way der Adler would fly once it took wing again. Surrounding the Bosche with "powerful" states was obviously a good idea , depths of Europe had kept Napoleon immensely busy and allowed England to bide its time . The near brink of war in 1921 over the spoils of war 1914-18 was a sharp reminder how lethal this waiting for time could be and how things could repeat themselves with distressing regularity , say the British warships on blockade duty sailing around with insulting serenity in the Manche .The English way France had never had a solution for . Keep home safe , keep the enemy at bay , keep the enemy attrited by allies .For a moment air power was considered , and the British were sort of terrorized as with the shopkeeper's instinct they had massively economized on their airdefences , whitling it to a single fighter squadron in Britain . Airpower , yes , it's no accident that it was a Frenchman who first proposed 1910ish that 100 pounds of dynamite placed on the bridge by a suicide plane would do away with any dreadnought . Then the British potential in economics and by extension US was remembered , a fight against the Anglosaxons would not be exactly a help to keep the Saxons at bay anyway .

so the wise English way , which exploited geography admirably , could not be imitiated with France having River Rheine to perform as a moat , England and USA opposing it seriously . The Rhein clashed with the English ideas of keeping France somewhat unsecure and Germany semiaffluent so that the English way could remain in action keeping the continent on the edge yet pacified .

the semi-affluent clause was particularly relevant . It is always France that gets blamed but the war reperations on Germany was quite acceptable to all allies . Americans playing good cop to the French thug were particularly active . It is just natural that Germans in 1929 owed more than they did in 1919 . While at it , the distinct yet not so discreet bragging about how the crash of '29 was engineered to bring Nazis to power , make them start a world war and make America number one is yet another proof ; among those who rule the world amnesia is endemic . Rockefellers of this world were all about a small correction , to get rid of the bubble . In the land of the free , where people were born equal , elevator operators had no right to make a killing on the stock market . Their job was to say to say 'Good Morning' and operate the elevator , their place was to remain deferential to their bosses . Who made the good times roll on German slave labour ...

they certainly were not monopolizing Adolphe , as the French intelligence files called Hitler in their usual spelling of the name .

 

[r16]

now that extented borders were not available and Anglosaxons ate their word on continued alliance against Germany with the failure of US to ratify Versailles and the British offer being conditional on American participation , France had to better use its new allies , the new nations of Europe . France was the largest power in the new Europe , if the new nations cooperated with Paris , a nascent Germany would be crushed in a two-front war . Before it could become a threat . The Poles and the Czechs no doubt felt no choice but being wary of Germans whom they shared borders . Whatever France did with regards to Germany , they would have to follow . And they kind of did . To ease the tensions to get more viable British guarantees , the Western borders of Germany were guaranteed by the Locarno treaties , which said nothing about the Eastern borders , where the Germans were most likely to demand and do something . Czechoslovakia and Poland had seperate guarantees from France , in a full demonstation by the West of where that two nations belonged . An hierarchy where they were under France . So happy with the result the French FM was that he is reported to have said : " We have here talked in European , that is a new language more people should learn ."

me taking quite a few cues from Wikipedia , the French now began the work to defend themselves . Petain was himself among the people who had wanted a fortified line on the border with Germany in 1922 . In the first place there was a grave shortage of troops , a situation that was to a problem for years to come ; too many men had died and it was projected birth rates would suffer . The war had also caused lots of financial expenditure , meaning there would be no industrial effort for immediate re-equipment . So taking to war to Germany right from the start was out of question . The initial effort would have to be defensive . Petain had made a name in elastic defence , he was never afraid of giving up slices of Belle Patrie to the enemy to decrease the effect of prepatory bombarment and the initial assault . Even if unpopular with a few of high ranking colleagues , it was elastic defence that made him a Marshall . Yet conducting such operations on the border would have risked the industrial zones France would need to produce the new arms it would use in the new war . It seems to this poster that he was also wary of his colleagues like Foch , who could twist the concept to tactical attacks irregardless of the situation , just like all those fruitless operations of the Great War .

the carnage of the trenches had turned a great deal of the French population against the military . Probably further fueled by a tradition of resistance that regularly saw the troops and the civilians duking it out on the barricades , the army was seen as a threat by many . The "famous" military indoctrination which turns "free willing human beings into order-following automatons" takes time to convince the conscripts by enduring all the physical challenges and some tremendous pyschological hazing , they become something more than the common man , they are not sissies . On this subject , the story of a notably quarrelsome Turkish journalist on the Left can be relevant . Being educated and a firm believer in anything non-military , when made the sergeant of a squad or platoon he treated his underlings "humanely" , there was no excess , no nothing and definitely no objection from his troops . Yet when the time came for the soldiers to leave the barracks for good , back to the civilian life , there was much affection from the "oppressed units" fo their tormentors , and nothing of the sort from his charges . He attributed it to the militarism in our Turkish bones , though he had denied the chance to become men through ordeal to his unit and they felt it throughly with sarcasm from those who were once "suffering" . Too much military life can "brainwash" people and since military values regularly coincide with " reactionary" views it was a priority for some political parties to shorten the military service . For the generals this meant even less troops on the firing line , in case of a surprise attack . In the Kaiserschlacht , Germans had regularly moved massive amounts of troops and weapons to catch the Allies unawares time after time . A fixed line was particularly suitable to absorb such an eventuality . If it covered the entire front , and if defended stoutly it would stop or delay the attack to give France time to mobilize or counterattack in a decisive style . To repeat once more the Maginot Line did everything that was expected of it .

whereever it existed . Only one fort fell to the Germans before June , and ı have it somewhere that it took a division 4 days to destroy an isolated location , abandoned by mobile forces . The Germans were likely to be 100 to 1 superior in numbers ...

naturally all the explanations still disregard Adolphe ...


...have been somewhat lazy , couldn't bring myself to finish it . If ı survive that long a discussion of that May to June period will follow to explain my view .

 

[r16]

these two posts stem from a discussion in this thread on Italian contribution to war in North Africa and supply problems :

ı have only a few books , one of them the Brute Force by John Ellis is sort of a regular reference when it comes to WW2 . Taking the numbers from there it appears the Italian merchant fleet has been consistent in deliveries to North Africa surprising even the Germans with the feat . On page 251 von Thoma is mentioned , he was a German officer closely related to the development of the Panzer Troops and a sort of expeditionary warfare expert as he commanded the armour detachment in Spain . He was sent to North Africa in October 1940 to assess the possibility of sending German troops to that theater .

the supply problem was the decisive factor - not only because the conditions of the desert, but because of the British Navy's command of the Mediterranean. I said it would not be possible to maintain a large German Army there as well as the Italian Army. My conclusion was that, if a force was sent by us, it should be an armoured force. Nothing less than four armoured divisions would suffice to ensure success - and this, I concluded, was also the maximum that could be effectively maintained with supplies in an advance across the desert to the Nile Valley... I said it could be only done by replacing the Italian troops with German. Large numbers could not be supplied...

this was a at a time airpower was proving to be revolutionary and while the RN had a quite justified reputation , the British had only a few Gladiators they ferried on a carrier from base to base , country to country to give an impression of aircover for their holdings around the Med . While the numerically impressive Italian Airforce was in pains to learn monoplanes were deadly to the biplanes they were largely equipped with . After a poor showing against the French a contingent of Italian warplanes were sent to take part in the Battle of Britain , their second engagement saw a feeding frenzy among RAF fighter squadrons with the one in actual combat refusing to report the location so that kills wouldn't have to be shared with other units . Bill Gunston , the noted aviation writer , says "... Italian airpower, like Italian power on sea and land, was quickly regarded by Britain as a joke, a welcome light relief from the stern business of fighting Nazi Germany." A conviction no doubt given much boost when , as ı understand it , a single Hurricane squadron practically defeated the entire Italian fighter force committed to their timid general offensive in Eygpt . Conducted under the feeling of "nakedness" against airpower the operations of both sides were limited in scope , if one can call O'Connor's consequent devastation of the Italian forces arrayed against him in such terms . His success was though a liability , convinced that they had found the magic formula , the British rushed to Greece while Rommel and initial elements of the Afrikakorps were rushed the other way . The Germans had substantial experience of armoured operations and a comparatively small Luftwaffe grouping , the FliegerFuehrer Afrika , was more than enough to add to the aerial struggle . They kept their end of the battlespace and then ı understand nobody has ever found fault with the courage of the Italian merchantmen , they would be in the seas doing their bit until the bitter end .


so there was a large group of troops that needed supplies and the Italians delivered it . The book makes the calculations on a basis of 12 divisions between 1940 and 1943 to reach the conclusion that each division's worth of daily supplies landed in ports was something like 800 tons . Nothing to be scoffed at , since US Armoured divisions happily raced into Germany on 600 tons per day and German divisions in Italy stalled the Allies -kinda forever- on 300 . Yet Rommel was always restricted by his supplies . In the first (?) El Alamein he ordered the Italians to exploit the breakthrough :

...the...Littorio Division was advised to make ready for a pursuit to Alexandria in two hours' time. An Italian officer's note pencilled in the margin of this order 'suggests, however, the Italians still maintained an unromantic grasp of reality: "Littorio," it ran, "has fuel for only 20 km. To Alexandria - 150km!"'

there was no breakthrough as British tenacity in straight defence had never been doubted and the Axis units didn't have the werewithal to outmanouvre the Allies . With Montgomery in charge the 8th Army methodically prepared for the attack . When it began , the Germans could not move their armoured reserves because if they did they would use all their fuel stock ; though the fearful "crumbling" of their forces afterwards meant they could have enough to start the retreat to Tunisia . By December while falling back to their hinterland , the Axis forces could receive only 152 tons of petrol per day against the required minimum of 400 tons , 16 instead of 50 for ammunition and 12.5 instead of 50 for general supplies like food . Once again the numbers are from Brute Force , with the relevant sentence paraphrased and they were meant for the entire sum of forces , the 12 division thing . The book immediately solves the puzzle ...

 

[r16]

for the supplies landed in ports had to be transferred forward and the main port was in Trablus , Tripoli in English . Of other possibilities , only Bingazi and Tobruk were available and they were either in British hands or totally vulnerable to interdiction operations . In short , a dangerous place for the vulnerable freighters . Indeed it is odd for a moment to read that up to 1943 Italians had 7000+ shipping movements in convoy to Albania and Greece compared to 4000 odd to Libya and Tunisia . It is probably that the Italians would choose more capable ships for supplying their main combat theater and slower or smaller ships would be in safer Eastern Med . Considering there were no railroads worth mentioning in the area and coastal shipping were equally in danger from British efforts all the supplies had to be transported on trucks . Before delving deeper into trucks' stuff , the coastal shipping thing requires a mention of Duce and his post victory dreams . Because he wanted to have a fleet in being , he declined to commit the Italian Navy , which then robbed the Axis that slight chance of victory . For Germans never had enough aircraft in theater to do all the stuff they had to do . Once Rommel defeated the British forces , forcing a big retreat to Eygpt and the roads were packed with soft transport , "ideal Stuka bait" as one book has it . Though at the same time a supply convoy was fighting its way to Malta and the entire German airpower was directed against it . The British army got out , dug out its foxholes and waited for the Germans , while Malta had a breath and as soon as the pressure on it was relaxed the RAF bombers in the Maltese airfields went on sinking the merchantmen carrying supplies to North Africa . The Axis needed at least double the amount of modern planes they had in theater . For the Germans that could mean upto 50% of their fighters . Or the Italian Navy could have challenged the British ...

now the trucks . We have seen Trablus was the only possible place to unload for the majority of the duration and it was between 900 to 1300 miles from the front , depending on the date . A German study had decided a motorized division operating 300 miles from the base would need 1250 trucks to maintain the flow of supplies . Taking the 12 division basis it makes something like 15000 for the entire Axis forces in North Africa , which never had more than 10000 . Of which 35% was in repair or maintenance and at least 20% was with the fighting formations as troop transports and in-unit supply carriage . Math says "half the needed amount yet triple the distance." So in January 1942 , Rommel wanted an extra 8000 trucks , "a ludicrous demand" as the 4 equivalent German armoured groupings in Russia fighting for dear life at that moment were averaging 3500 trucks each , for a total of 14000 trucks . The 8000 also works out as 15,6 % of all trucks produced in Germany in 1941 .

as the book moves on eloquently to underline this was not the end of the story : some 30 to 50 percent of all the petrol landed in North Africa is estimated to have been used for moving the rest or otherwise lost in the transport between Trablus and the front . A forward port would have been nice and a study was made about an advance to Tobruk in late 1941 and the Afrikakorps alone was calculated , probably on the assumption that Italians were to fend for themselves . 3500 trucks would be necessary to carry the supplies and those trucks would have needed about 5800 tons of fuel for themselves each month . Rear area supply trucks only . The actual deliveries for every kind of land vehicle in Rommel's forces averaged less than 4900 tons at the time .

 

[r16]

( yet another chapter outline in the 20th Century History tome ı will never finish . ı am planning to use this post as a reference in a discussion about present day , so it has a reference to a joke that's on me . And the general leaning of the post takes it beyond WW2 . )

states actually don't have much power to shape things ; they have to convince other actors to act on their behalf to realise their plans . In this context , the plan back in the day was essentially the same as today , a mere proxy state . Then for the Colonial Powers to hold off the Russian Communism away from the ever burgeoning oil fields of the Middle East , hence the coffers of the Seven Sisters . The year was 1944 and Democracy was coming to Turkey .

despite the 2012 presentation that he was a British puppet , it had been necessary to remove Mustafa Kemal after the unsubtantiated claims that we intented to bury the Italian Fascism in Ethiopia . Ankara in 1938 eagerly looked forward to 1942 , when the London-Paris Axis confidently expected that industrial mobilization , economic blockade , attrition and the inevitable Nazi-Commie fight would weaken the "hostiles" enough to allow the good plan of the day work like clockwork . Hovering around Kemal's deathbed , the then elites were looking at maps to decide where we would simply march and grab .

didn't turn out that way . The bug of easy conquests had spread to military from the politicians ; when 1942 came a little extra was needed to keep us out of WW2 , incredibly as an ally to Germany already doomed with the full entry of America to the war . The intentions were no doubt good , people talked of marching to Bakü to save Turkic brethen from the yoke of evil Communism , and certainly not to liberate a few oil wells...

actually the reversal of fortunes for Moscow was a blessing ; it increased Ankara's bargaining chips . The confusion stemmed from America , the new boy on the block as a global military power , instead of the former economic powerhouse that never strayed too far from London's decisions . Though nobody actually believed that it could be done until Hiroshima , America showed sings of challenging the status quo . Intent on replacing the Colonial structures with economic / cultural domination America would have been nice to play off against naked Communist expansion and ever whining yet bloody European Colonialism .

it was not to be . If ı can find it , there will be a picture below showing the discomfort of 1943 discovery that the Tiger had 8 centimeters of armour , proving this country was well below the curve in military tech and overall intel and it certainly didn't bode well for the future . If Russians could defeat the German Panzers , they could prove to be unstoppable for a foot infantry army and the Turkish one was undoubtedly so . The Inönü goverment was uneasy and felt very lonely . Probably not concent with the construction going on on the Moon , with the command post as the first priority , Ankara was relieved to see America had the atomic capability and happily accepted it as the immediate problem solver .

meanwhile across the Atlantic Eisenhower had enough clout ; as the examplary Coalition builder he forced it on a reluctant Anglosaxon thinking that we would be less of a problem if we were fixed into position with legally binding deals . One must remember 1945 was a year when it was obvious that Germany would be finally defeated at huge cost and the European Colonial Powers had been bled white in the process . Despite the shows of defiance like De Gaulle being ready to fight the US Army in Europe or the British for Syria , it was not easy . The so called inventors of this New World Order , the British were hard at work to stop the Indian Subcontinent gaining freedom and short of defeating the US in open battle they didn't know how . In such a vacuum we could just re-establish control in the upper reaches of the Arabian peninsula and secure it with Russian or American cooperation . So there we were , a thorn in the side of people in the pre-planning of NATO in 1947 - even less desirable than a re-militarized Germany . It would take the demonstration of the Russian nuke in 1949 to make NATO a reality , capable of absorbing the evil Turk .

not that widely disseminated in Ankara . While the new elites of the day were busy "bringing back the religion" since we had to be Muslims to rule over the Arabs , they also simply felt that we should take part in Korea , sending a Brigade to battle for the Free World . Unaware Ike had already sealed to deal to get us in into NATO no matter what . Our membership in NATO has always been an hypocracy . We were meant to defend the West from threats while they were already plotting to get us out even before we got in . Military and economic aid were no doubt beneficial to an extent . Yet they were counterbalanced by the invasion of this country by experts and stuff , closing down or neutralizing any kind of industrial effort that wasn't closely controlled by the Western countries . Making this a country a colony in kinda practical terms , again .

the country wasn't exactly heaven on earth and a certain infusion of modernity was necessary . We were behind and it led to some situations . Lack of information breeds excess , the information gap had to be closed . When the first jet aircraft for the Air Force were flown in by Turkish pilots trained abroad , they found the airbase empty with nobody in sight . Believing the jet engines sucked anything in front and burned anything in the back for miles , the troops were kept behind buildings until all the engines were turned down . Yeah , something to catch up with . Yet when the West decided what we needed was just highways and no railroads at all , this country sent students to America to study road building . According to the story they were taught only the "California grade" which then was copied anywhere in Turkey for decades , icing up horribly in winters . American instructors were so busy instructing the world , they had no time to explain that it snowed in the US as well . ( ı guess a winter type road is somehow more angled to let water clear the pavement by gravity , but then this is a story told on TV some 20 years ago ; ı might be wrong about quite a few points of it )

had this country been a neutral , it would still be supported by the West as a bulwark against the Russians and considering it was a NATO member that took the highest percentage of economic aid the Soviets gave , development rate could have been at least similar , if not greater than the real life example . For a protection that did not and does not exist Turkey lost a few options .


edit : the picture finally found . The lighter colour uniforms are ours visiting the Eastern European Front in 1943 , in the meet the Tiger day .

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Is this your personal manifesto thread?

 

[Dachs]

Is this your personal manifesto thread?

r16 rants are great. Some of the best comedy on CFC, in my opinion.

 

[Ajidica]

r16 rants are great. Some of the best comedy on CFC, in my opinion.

Personaly I found Christos to be better. Then again, I do enjoy trolling ethnic nationalists whether they be Greeks, Macedonians, FYROMians, or Poles.

 

[Dachs]

They're not even similar kinds of people. r16 knows what he's talking about and isn't an idiot troll; his comedy is self-aware and intentional.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

They're not even similar kinds of people. r16 knows what he's talking about and isn't an idiot troll; his comedy is self-aware and intentional.

If I could get through the broken english and conspiracy theories, I might agree with you. I actually did start reading this thread out of curiousity. Then he jumped to panzers

 

[r16]

Is this your personal manifesto thread?

the only thing ı ever claim to be true is that ı will be the next commander of the Starfleet and there is a bet going on whether my orderly will manage to bring a cup of coffee before ı manage the start the orbital bombardment of the US . Otherwise this thread serves , if that's the word , as a summary of the History of the 20th Century ı had always wanted to write but most unlikely to be finished .

 

[r16]

it is now 1955 . There is so much bluffing going on in the world , and one of them , the unstoppable nuclear armed bomber has kept the fighting in Korea to a limited war in which the Russians and Americans fought each other without acknowledging the fact . Stalin has died and his replacement Khruschev is trying a new approach to make his own undelilable mark in the Stalinist empire , driving a wedge between Peking and Moscow . In time the indivisible parts of the monolithic Communist Bloc will be sabotaging each other .

in the US Ike is the President , he is taking advantage of the American nuclear superiority to cut down defence expenditure and American conventional arms overall are also in a better condition , ready to take advantage of the missile revolution just around the corner . Though this missile revolution will also fizzle and will be a part of the reason why he will become wary of the way Americans do business . On top of the misgivings he already had .

we have been to Korea and back , leading to membership in NATO . The Menderes Goverment is trying to figure out why the Middle East is not rushing to the neo-Ottomanism of the period . One reason is the good old Nasser and his take over in Egypt , the Arab Awakening of the day . The potential gains and risks from Nasserism are among the reasons the West treats Ankara well . This year will see the Turkish Foreign Minister speaking Americanese to the World Neutrals at Bandung , Indonesia .

regarding Neutrals , their numbers increase yearly as the Colonial Empires crumble . The Brits have it much better that the French who just last year saw the defeat in Dien Bien Phu ; Indochina was a paradise for the veterans of the French Army , before it was turned into an hell by people clad in black pajamas . North African veterans of that war are now already in rebellion back at home . Despite now having a Nuclear deterrent , the British can see it plainly that the Sun is about to set on their empire .

divide and Rule has been the golden rule for millenia , in the East as well , just like it was in the Orientalist West . The British having lots of problems in lots of places see an opening in Cyprus , to create a rift between fresh NATO members , Greece and Turkey . Both of these two countries are very loyal to America . And Enosis is also very strong a feeling and Enosis obviously will turn into a justification for a payback for 1922 . Otherwise Turkey is useless for the role it is supposed to play ; "protected" by Article 5 it is too much threat that can punch and can not be punched back when it comes to the denizens of the Middle East . As such , it was long the Turkish State policy to claim that there was no Cyprus question . America the new owner of the country was all for squezing the Commies into a corner , so that they would fall with internal dissent . There was no need for internal troubles in NATO that would allow a breathing space for Russians .

though a defining change in the Middle East is Israel and my examination of them has to go to into spoilers for this thread as the thing is apt to be coloured by nationalist cynicism for which ı am kinda famous .

Spoiler :

so far ı have claimed there has been a provoke / protect system at work . The establishment of Israel and its transformation from an European outpost to global influence can be gainfully studied within this context .

the West has been anti-Semitic during practically its entire existance . Due some process ı haven't yet studied the Industrial Revolution accelarated a trend where people were respected for their wealth , without much concern for the background . By 1917 the Jews were even considered as human in well developed / morally responsible countries . And the Germans were well advanced in their plans to break up an ally of theirs in the global war where they were supposed to be in mortal combat with their enemies . A Jewish state to be formed in the Ottoman lands could get some sympathy from the Diaspora which then could maybe prevent the US getting fully involved , making it an Anglosaxon crusade against Berlin ; London was trouble enough on its own .

don't rush to check your copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion . The Germans were also kindly creating an Arabia , free of the Ottoman yoke , to be realised after we were all dead fighting Kaiser's battles for him . The British had to pre-empt Germany on both counts . First by supporting the Arab Rebellion of 1916 , despite the misgivings of the officers in theater and the Balfour Declaration was presented as a sign of gratitude to an industrious supporter of the war effort , to block opposition from any British elites not wholly converted to the idea .

the idea being a state or -more truthfully at that stage- an entity of Israel . The myth of the conspiratorial unity and excellence of the Zionist movement suffers readily from the events of Versailles 1919 . Where it was shown Paris had its own Zionists and London's Zionists could not agree with them . Naturally ...

still by 1920 , Palestine and its restructuring was an excellent idea for the West . Britain who now controlled the area allowed more emigrants every year and the new arrrivals needed a place to live , which they took from the Arabs , by purchase or by pistols . Oh yes , it was big trouble for Palestine but the British holdings in the Middle East wasn't limited to Palestine . Disapproval of the Jewish settlements channelled anti-British sentiment to the support of disturbances in a compact area where a committed group of people stoutly defended themselves in fortified compounds while their opponents were open to the whole bag of tricks of the British intelligence and Zionist attack / counter-attacks . Holding large areas populated by people who don't like your ways often requires disheartening such people .

basically as anti-Semitic as the British themselves , the rest of the world didn't have much qualms for such affairs . The Communist upheavals of 1917 and beyond had shown the social order was at risk . People who are oppressed or at least unable to prosper because they don't fit in with the society tend to concentrate on a good education for their children if they can . Which might be harsh on said children if they too can not find credible opportunities leading to their protests , if they can . Emigration to Palestine to live in farming communes under continious risk removed well educated / determined Jews with mostly Socialist beliefs from their "native" countries , decreasing the chance that they might someday somehow start a rebellion in someway .

1933 and Adolf Hitler would certainly mean there would be no more determination issues , after and if one survived the Concentration camps . Though it is gross to suggest the Holocaust was a Zionist plan to get more emigrants to Palestine , involving Germans in such a thing would be only possible if the Zionists were all fools to totally disregard Germanic throughness and dedication to whatever they do ...

however ugly to say , the Holocaust and the terrible suffering did a lot to overcome dislikes stemming from millenia and Israel had the support of lots of people . Continueing with the Socialist theme the first combat aircraft of Israel were Me-109 fighters - modified versions of the planes as flown by Hitler's Luftwaffe - sold by the Czechs , by Russian permission . Strangely enough , Israel also wanted to produce Panther tanks , possibly because the design belonged to a defeated country that was unlikely to be able to ask for patent rights and stuff , though the French had already stolen a march on them in a quest that wouldn't bear fruit in the end .

up to 1955 , Israel was what it was supposed to be , a constant threat to Arabs nearby who suffered if they talked too much and a foil for the distant -oil producing- countries : if people didn't follow the command of the King and questioned the expenses on Rolls Royces instead they might just break the cohesion of their country to fatally weaken it , at a time where evil Jews were expanding by ethnic cleansing and stuff .

the defeat of the French in Vietnam - and America was blamed for it by not committing to a new war with the Red China a year after Ike had managed to get out of Korea - put Entente Cordiale in a perilous position . As already mentioned in a post somewhere in this thread states don't have much power to actually coerce but have to act to convince other actors to fulfill a need or desire . In this light London and Paris had lost their attractiveness and the capability to impose fear .

american military thinking at the time concentrated exclusively on nuclear warfare , and diplomacy followed suit by getting bomber bases whereever possible . Despite the new B-52 offered the possibility of strikes from mainland US , there were far too many B-47s that could be used in surprise attacks , coming in less defended borders after taking off from bases nearer . And all those bases also needed support from secondary bases in the logistics link up . Morocco had the interesting situation where safety of the American airbases were provided somewhat by air policing by Soviet flown MiG-17s . Not that far fetched then , if one presumes neither Moscow nor Washington had much trouble when Britain lost Eygpt with the coup of 1953 . Russia had millions of impoverished masses to export Revolution to ; America had enough nukes to turn everybody into dust . Both could co-operate at the expense of the European Colonialism . It is not just Polish and East German revolts that pushed Khruschev to a Detant .

nasser on the other hand was playing for leadership of all the Arabs , he needed victories . The Aswan Dam -the American angle - was defeated by a vote in Washington , of all the lobbies and pressure groups the most powerful is the one run by London . Which left the weaponry from Moscow as the only bet , a victory over Israel would be a poignant reminder to all that Nasser was the Greater , probably he would have left Greatest to Almighty God Himself in a future-mostly of pious Muslim country that streched from the Atlantic to the Gulf .

might be irritating to some that ı appear to make the Red Menace less than it was . But this was a time when Russians were once again in awe of American weaponry , the hundreds of MiGs they transferred to Nasser's Egypt was not for fighting a war but offering a credible force structure to survive incredible quantitive attrition , the culprit being the Sidewinder and the mid-50s American trials . The USN version of the story says the coinflip decided the Navy would be first in the joint exercises and comparative field tests to fly , so they just loaded a missile and immediately destroyed the target . The USAF had to work 3 days to repeat it with their missile , the AIM-4 . Russians were so impressed by the 'winder and the tales that it failed in its initial trials , all 12 missiles missing or failing someway or the other that they thought it was a super weapon . One that needed to be tested under extreme conditions to see what its limits were , for it was already proven that in normal conditions it would be lethal . Any MiG in front of a Sidewinder armed jet would be shot down ...

( as such when a Chinese Fresco returned with an unexploded missile stuck in the back from a clash with the Chinese Nationalists in 1958 , the Russians were thrilled , they could just go forward 10 , 20 years in electronics with its examination . The Sidewinder was a heartbreak , a crude pipe with nothing worthy of mention in it . Russians thought this was a scam , a trick by the Americans to mislead them , to make them drop their guard by suggesting America was not that good and research money on missiles could be diverted to civilian projects . Anyhow , in 1961 3 civilian guys or two guys and a gal working for the KGB stole a Sidewinder from an airbase in Netherlands , rolling a carpet around the missile body and putting it to the back of the car they had arrived , all in broad daylight and sent it piece by piece in ordinary post parcels to Moscow . When the '61 'winder proved that it was the real McCoy , Russians actually copied it to become the AA-2 Atoll , it being still better than they had so far achieved in IR-homers . For the interested , and unfortunately for those uninterested as well , the last Soviet jets were also designed with AIM-7 F/M in mind , just in case they were acquired somehow . Just in the way their ground refuelling systems were compatible with NATO ... )

so this was the situation when two European states and their proxy in the Middle East saw they might have to fight soon . And if you think this is a new anti something here is my litmus test . ı didn't give up watching Star Wars films and the cartoons after ı learned Nathalie had once written to the editors of a few magazines defending Israeli actions and decisions . ı learned it from Wikipedia , which ı had referred to after reading she had a baby boy ; ı had wondered what they named him ...

 

[LightSpectra]

the only thing ı ever claim to be true is that ı will be the next commander of the Starfleet

sums up this forum as a whole really

 

[hobbsyoyo]

...Otherwise this thread serves , if that's the word , as a summary of the History of the 20th Century ı had always wanted to write but most unlikely to be finished .

Then try using more relevant thread names. Your name choice is almost deliberately misleading.

 

[r16]

ı guess true , maybe a moderator would change the name ? Though the thread started a year ago and the title was quite relevant for the first posts ...


it is now 1956 and ı want use the opportunity to correct a few things in the previous posts - caused by lack of recent study of the period . The coup of Egypt is of course in 1952 and Nasser took over in 1954 . Have been advised he could be reasonable in those days ; the "megalomania" hardened over time to be acutely visible in 1970 . At a time when he was engaging Israel , he was also supporting a civil war against King Hussein of Jordan simply because he hadn't toppled any Arab monarchies yet . Distressing in the days when Israelis had not yet discovered even with America on their back they were not invincible .

governing is a tough business and many politicians have been lured by the potential of external success to gloss over internal failures . Getting people find bread to buy everyday isn't as exciting as invading a foreign country in any case .

nasser's Egypt was a on standart programme designed to keep the population content with leadership of the Arab world while improvement of the daily life would necessarily take ages . And that leadership could be quickly gained a few victories in any field , considering Egypt's dominant position within the Arabs . If the required success proved elusive even an illusion of achievement over Israel would suffice . Despite their blood-thirsty anti-Semitic rhetoric the politicians of the Middle East were still to grasp the fundamental part . The transformation taking place in the world through the dissolution of the Colonial Imperialism was to have a strong long term effect in the area , with Israel's own change ...

nasser's Panarabists naturally didn't like the Baghdad Pact of 1955 , an agreement of the Anglosaxons to share Middle Eastern oil wealth on a 50-50 basis and "to protect the status-quo with profligate expenditure of Turkish blood whenever necessary" . Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi elites might have seen the pact as a life threatening development in view of their feuds with the Hashemites ; something even ARAMCO might fail to defend against . For Cairo it was yet another limitation for their "expansion" . They had failed to unite with Sudan , to their West France would fight to death to keep its colonies in Africa and the British while resembling a now toothless dragon were still capable bringing in new players in the form of the spectacular America and us , the former hegemon of the area . To a person of the 21st Century this desire to expand , a new form imperialism where Nasser's photographs had to be hung in the best places in preference to the president or king of that Arab country might seem foolish and pointless ; to the people back than it certainly wasn't . Trying to explain and a contrast to 21st Century practice can certainly turn this thread into a political statement , best avoided ...

still the Egyptians had not even considered turning their backs to the West . Looking anti-West , lots of actors have prospered , at least initially . The elites of Egypt had long lived with the British , many of them owed their family wealth to their forefathers' acceptance of whatever London wanted . Even for the new generation of the officers that toppled King Faruk , the prestige and power of the UK was a fact ; incidentally they might have all seen Montgomery in Cairo once or twice before he chased Rommel the Desert Fox all the way from El Alamein to Normandy and now commander of NATO .

israel during all these developments was an European outpost , that could be safely engaged to pressure Europeans , or one that could be made to stop with reaching a deal with London or Paris . And the Palestinians were an easy target to convince to chant the greatness of Nasser . One way or the other the clashes between the two countries took an upswing in 1955 . The Palestinians perhaps understandably didn't take well to be removed from their land by force , they were attacking and in cases counter-attacking Israel and the Israeli Army was doing likewise , entering Arab territory in raids . In the light of this escalation ( Israel would make 3 invasions involving a Brigade in 1955 ) Cairo asked for weapons from the UK and the US . Not to fight off Israelis , since they already had enough to do that but as as a leverage to pressure Tel Aviv to act in restraint . The Baghdad Pact was not working well enough ; because Arabs were prone to be suspicious of the British , the deal had been originally done between Turkey and Iraq with America's matchmaking visible in the background . When it became obvious that the Arab resistance to the Pact would be insurmountable one way or the other London officially joined it to kill it in a way , April 1955 might be the time that the British decided to take their chance against the solidifying domination of their former colonies . America would respond with bringing in Pakistan and Iran to make the treaty CENTO , a rather weakened form of NATO .

the Soviet response to this was the offer of an arms deal in May 1955 , which wasn't agreed upon until September as the Egyptian preference was for an American sale . Russians got the deal only because they had a better offer financially . Payment in cotton and rice instead of the American demand for cash . With this reminder that he could play the Russian card if necessary Nasser was still for keeping the West in the game . For the Aswan Dam , America was preferred despite the offer of a Russian loan still to be paid back with agricultural products . And Washington formally announced in June 1956 the deal was on , only to be scuttled by Senate on the pretext that Egypt had recognized the Red China .

nasser didn't like to be refused , it was hurting him politically , or maybe it was simple impatience for grandeur . Instead of exporting cotton and rice to the Soviet Union for the next 30 years in return for a loan to build the dam , he just went on to nationalise the Suez ... For the Europeans appeared to be in decay , uncapable of standing up to him . He wasn't aware that the British had lots of misgivings about the rapidly increasing MiG force on the Egyptian airfields . The RAF had a window of opportunity in that the bombers they had were expected to be capable of avoiding interceptors yet they could be at risk if this new MiG-19 Farmer made it to Middle East . War was then on the basis of now or much later ...

 

[r16]

when the war came it was "normal"; a 21st Century armchair strategist wouldn't have been surprised at all . The aggressors had everything planned for PR , to steal legitimacy after the deed was done . Israel would strike first , to protect the innocent ships passing through the Suez from becoming colleteral damage of pointless Middle Eastern fighting the humanitarian West ( UK+France )would kindly ask both sides to stop fighting and withdraw a few miles back as a confidence increasing measure . Considering the Israelis would be deep inside Sinai and the Egyptians would be supposed to defend their country , refusal of this good intentioned offer was surely enough to brand Cairo as the agressor and start the bombing ...

the military side of the planning reflected this . Initially the mass of Israeli armour , limited though it was , was supposed to conduct a raid to Jordan to distract Cairo. ( This was cancelled after strong protests from the commander of the unit and European diplomats concurred that it would be too much aggression . ) At the same time an Israeli parachute unit was to jump "ahead" of the Mitla Pass ostensibly to search and destroy Palestinian training camps in the area . They would make themselves seen and the Egyptians would react . By moving troops from the environs of Suez City , itself the target of European paratroopers later in the game -had certain things had not intervened . Other large Egyptian troop concentrations would be fixed in their positions in Northern Sinai by the mass of Israeli Army . The operation would look like a regular Israeli raid until the Europeans entered the fray with their "calls for peace" , Egyptians would react with action against the Israelis at the Mitla Pass to knock them out before any probable Western action , such a success could discourage the Europeans , compelling them to stop before intervening .

so taking a page from the Germans' book , the "Allies" planned to capture favourable terrain in a strategic attack to fight defensively on the tactical level , until the enemy could no longer field a competitive force due attrition . All the caves in the Pass would negate any temporary Egyptian air superiority and the ground features would channel any vehicles or armour to predictable axes . Meanwhile in the North , the Israelis would attack with the whole of their air force , the aerial defence of that country proper entrusted to 36 French jets deployed there in Israeli markings . Just like Egyptians were having problems with their MiGs , with lack of trained pilots and groundcrews , the Israelis were also having a massive influx of new aircraft and were unable to cope , so that one squadron had 16 pilots for the 52 jets it had . No problem , Paris had pilots available for them in addition to the two "fake Israeli" squadrons deployed .

"legit" history suggests it was France that came up with involving Israelis into what was previously an Anglo-French only operation , planning of which in various versions involved occupying Cairo to topple Nasser . And it took a month for the British to accept and 3 weeks passed before Israelis were invited to the discussions in Sevres - now that's some locale we Turks don't like . Legit history even suggests if Israel attacked Jordan , the UK would deploy fighter jets to Amman in Operation Cordage to bomb Israel . To the extent that the aerial armada deployed to attack Egypt would also take out the Israeli air bases . The British officers were briefed on both operations and didn't know which country they were going to attack , until D-1 . Let me say in the r16 way that Cordage was the cover for the Musketeer in case the other branch of the Anglosaxon family tree figured out what London was up to . And it also fooled Nasser Inc. to believe that London was inventing an Israeli invasion scare to prop up Jordan so that King Hussein would be impressed by the might of RAF to re-introduce British officers he had just sacked under Cairo's pressure . And triple-planning for some eventuality apparently started in January 1956 . That Israeli officers were asked to leave the joint HQ after their planes attacked HMS Crane mistaking it for an Egyptian ship is similarly a smoke screen trying to silence their cousins across the Atlantic ...

in any case the plan was air heavy . A two day gap would be enough for Egyptians to leave their barracks to engage the Israeli offensives in the Sinai meanwhile their aircover , the all important jet aircraft that perforce needed long hard runways fixing them to geographically known , numerically limited airbases inviting a strong debilating blow . The RAF bomber force would bomb those airfields knocking out them "at once" destroying EAF on the ground , meanwhile the Anglo-French tactical jets in combination with Israelis would catch the Egyptian Army on the move , on roads across a flat terrain with no cover . A turkey shoot was in the making .

any exercise of this kind requires some checking . Why all these stuff , instead of going for the kill immediately ? Well , EAF had to be bombed first and thus alarmed the Egyptian Army could well decide to defend the Canal , fortifying in the cities . It might take ages to remove them from there . Even if Russians were so busy with Hungary ... America would not start a war on some Arab country wronged , but could hurt economically . Considering the financial ruin of the WW2 was not still that away in Europe , Paris and London needed a decisive success comparitively fast .

 

[r16]

it was not to be . History says an Israeli reconnaissance flight spotted a group of men on the location where the airdrop was to take place . In Civ III , that perfect representation of life , if you airland on an enemy held tile you die ... Instead of risking a bloodbath , Israelis landed "before" the Mitla Pass instead of "ahead" . After the war it turned these men were not soldiers per se but a "road repair gang". Luckily ı am not writing history , or it would have been tar and feathers for the sentence that it was actually a French RF-84F and the pilot saw what he saw and "the tracked vehicles identified" would be practically useless in road repairs , apart from creating a need for road repairs in the first place .

the Egyptians were also surprised . They would expect an Israeli operation on behalf of their European masters , even the Europeans invading themselves . But the landing didn't make sense in the location , it was giving Egyptians time to reinforce the Pass and defend it against a lightly armed hostile force . Radar cover being newly constructed they didn't spot the second wave in which French transports dropped vehicles and anti tank weapons ; nor was the trucks carrying the rest of Ariel Sharon's command to the pass from the border were correctly evaluated . Nasser declared his own confusion by saying the Israelis were "fighting the sand". Egypt had reasonable forces in the Sinai , as it was obvious the Mitla operation was a toothless ruse , a diversion , Cairo decided to remain in the Canal Zone .

more surprises to follow . Now in 1956 , Canberra was obviously the best tactical bomber in the world , been sold to USAF as the B-57 and stuff . It was pertinently expected that no planes in Egyptian service could climb up to the altitudes where the Canberra could operate , and this was 5 years after the appearance of the MiG-15 in Korea where it surprised the West with its exceptional altitude performance . Duly on the morning of October 30 , 4 RAF Canberras flew over the canal zone in a reconnaissance tasking ; had they not Egyptians would have been alarmed !

now considering ı try to keep my posts in this thread within reasonable limits , ı won't delve into the reason that the war started on the 33rd anniversary of the declaration of the Turkish Republic but here you are , observing 4 planes serenely flying over Egypt , looking for targets that will be bombed by similar planes soon . Out of reach , out of danger - barring a malfunction that might force a plane down to lower altitudes . Hey , wait . Two interceptors , MiGs MiGs ! One Canberra damaged , and an apprehension in the Allies ... Not anything like panic ; it has been observed in Korea that there is not much standardization in Russian aviation manufacture , build quality changes from airframe to airframe and there are some Super MiGs that outdo the rest of the MiG-15s -it seems- effortlessly ; and by sheer coincidence they tend to be flown by the "Czechs , Hungarians" and "American mercenaries flying for Red China" . The thing to remember this is the days of the atomic deterrence , no bomber can be shot be down and atomic destruction of your cities are inevitable if it ever comes to war , so don't ever cross those glorious states that have the bomb and the bombers . Loss of a single bomber could turn this into an obvious fallacy and could have hurt goverments politically ...

one single pass and some bullet holes in a Canberra forced the change of plans , there were some 100 bombers detached to take part in the operation , and they were proven to be vulnerable . In daylight ... The new plan was a night attack and this wasn't 1940 anymore , the experience of the painful campaign against the Reich had been taken to heart and the RAF was suitably kitted up for the task at hand . Cairo was still believing it was just a bluff by the Europeans , despite the fact that the Israelis had broken through at Gazze life was normal at the Capital , no blackout . Even the presence of American passenger planes at a Cairo airport to evacuate American citizens -in the fittingly named Operation Cover- had not convinced Nasser that those 120 ships closing on the Mediterranean end of the Canal meant war with the Entente Cordiale . It wouldn't have made much difference to RAF , with blackout or not , their pathfinders would precisely navigate , confirm targets by radar and drop marker bombs , bright lights hanging in mid-air to enable those following bombers to drop their payloads accurately . By the end of the war in Europe RAF at night was more accurate on average figures than the USAF which bombed in daylight . Slight loss in accuracy yet total protection from the enemy . The one that might have hurt ... MiGs didn't have radars to fight in the dark .

yet another surprise in the morning and this was uncomfortable . Though first of all , yet another bomber this time a Valiant , the first type in the trio off strategic jet bombers RAF had ordered , was fired upon . Much surprising it must have been as the Egyptian night fighters were British built Meteors which had to be unable to climb to 13000 metres the RAF bombers flew , with their 12000 metre service ceiling , not in the time available . More to come after the post strike recon photos came in . Instead of the devastating knock out blow that was to behead the EAF , only 14 planes were discovered to be destroyed . One RAF squadron had turned back early as their targeted airfield had American airliners on it . Not to worry - in some weird sense - another squadron had missed its own target to attack this airfield and luckily had missed with every bomb ... Now some particularly bad thing said about Winston Churchill is that he knew Germans had a night navigation system that could guide them well enough to bomb city centers and they just intented to hit Coventry particularly hard and he as the PM of the British Goverment just allowed this to happen , so that the fact that they had cracked German codes could be kept secret . Though there was no more need for this kind of stuff in 1943/44 period where feeble Luftwaffe and V-1/2 attacks were spoofed by all means necessary . Americans in later days would be even blunter .

 

[r16]

they had to be . Nasser had the layman's misjudgement of airpower . He had watched the RAF attacks all around Cairo from the roof of his home , he knew he had lost the game of bluffing . Even had he been aware of the black magic duel taking place up above in the sky where the American black boxes were handling the English ones pretty roughly , he knew sun would be up , so soon .

a decision was necessary , a choice of the direction to go as he stood at the fork of the road . And it was taken , a safe path that couldn't hurt that much . Reports by telephone didn't move him one inch . Had he been an airbase commander himself he too would have lied , wouldn't he ? He would make a sacrifice that didn't involve him personally . He would sacrifice the air force which obviously had to be already destroyed ; and the ineffectual remnants would be vigourously hunted down with the daybreak . Any plane that survived had to be left where it stood , no flights , no fighting not even dispersion around the airfield . As the post strike pictures "stupefied" the RAF commanders and the recon pilots warily recounted how MiGs got up to them and damaged one Canberra after one pass - again , the flights and human intelligence confirmed the EAF was on the ground , planes parked neatly wingtip to wingtip . As Anglo-French tactical air and Naval aircraft were launching to catch the MiGs before they took off , Nasser was making his decision heard , he was a man people could make deals with . To make it sure , a general order was issued to the Forces in Sinai , a withdrawal to the Canal Zone .

american reaction was swift . On at least 3 occasions during the war , the British and French planes had to abort their attacks as USN fighters took firing positions behind them . The French took pride in forcing an USN submarine to the surface in the middle of their task force , it was more likely the boat had already "sunk" the carriers . USAF B-47s and USN jets flew nuclear attack profiles on Malta and the airbases on Cyprus . There were constant forays from the American planes around the Anglo-French shipping , forcing them to launch interceptors greatly disrupting naval air attacks against the Egyptians . On November 3 , USS Coral Sea , launching and recovering aircraft , travelled through the British task force which was doing likewise ; it must have been a traffic jam to see . Though the reports USN commanders wanted permission to attack the Europeans are not 100% correct , they wanted to strike land targets in Sinai , don't colour them friends of the Arabs or anything like that . Ike himself said no , guessing "anti-Semitic" ops would hurt Egyptians more - now that the Arabs were retreating on the same 3 roads where the Israelis were pursuing closely .

the Russians too were displeased . There is much talk on the stupidity of the Arab soldier . Not exactly . A practical intellect sharpened by incessant clan struggle in peacetime and perfectly attuned with a keen interest in conspiracy , "the Arab of the Israeli Wars" follows the general trend whatever that might be , is reliably "fit to survive" . If Nasser saw it to his benefit that resistance was bad , his commanders would do likewise , hence the Flak was weak ... It was quickly all over the place . The Israelis had 14 of their P-51s lost or damaged on October 31 , the next day with the Anglo-French attacks and the beginning of the retreat they lost only one . Allied losses would begin only after they started attacking Army targets in preparation for their invasion of the Canal Zone . Nasser needed the Army to survive post war , and the Army Commanders were now targets themselves , in contrast to the Air Force Chiefs safe inside Cairo . Besides , the absence of the air cover would mean slower Allied aircraft could be employed , which increased the chances of dumber Arabs to hit something . And the first British loss was a jet that mistakenly flew over a flak battery and hit the ground while evading the potshots , they had to fire as the neighbourhood was watching ... The second would be a turboprop attack aircraft shot down by Russians .

it was July when Soviet diplomats first hinted some minor Israeli success against Nasser would not be opposed strongly . This get the Arabs defeated then re-arm them for more influence mode is supposedly was a favourite of Kremlin ; anyhow the date matches the upheaval in Poland and a need for media distraction . October 20 , decision for the start of the Sevres talks equals Gomulka taking over in Warsaw with a mild "in your face , Russia" declaration , a relief for Moscow after weeks of unease . Entente Cordiale and Israel decided on a full scale operation after the rebellion in Hungary took hold on the 24th . By 29th , it was even "possible" for Russians to be kicked out of Hungary as the rebellion widened and rural areas were mobilizing to march on Budapest . Just before the RAF bombers were taking off the Russian tanks were investing the Hungarian capital . This was the end of the Russo-Anglo-French deal and the beginning of a shot-gun marriage of the White House and the Kremlin .

for America was not necessarily against a Nasser that was controllable , later US Administrations have done good with bloody feuding between two NATO members to cause lots of mischief in the upper reaches of Middle East , Greece was some kind of Damocles type instrument as we had to watch Washington rearranging the place and sabotaging the solution of a certain issue which involves a group of people who live in our Southeast . Destruction of Egyptian military potential could radicalize the area , taking the control from America and boost the Colonialists' standing enough to curtail Atlantic Charter "spirit" where America was to replace the European influence globally with one of its own . Israel defeating Egypt was one thing , they had done something similar in 1948 and the planet had not stopped turning , Europeans invading the Suez Canal to the sound of trumpets was another . Russians simply felt betrayed ; Paris and London were not providing the promised counterweight against agitations of Washington through Gehlen's network in East Europe . Poland talking against Russia was one thing , they still had Germans to their West and remembered it was the Red Army that liberated the country one way or the other . Hungary , there were actually Nazi collaborators in action all over the country ...

russian advisors in Egypt had tried hard to get the planes moved around or flown out of country though they were not always succesful , as the Americans postured to get the Europeans stop November 1st had ended with the destruction of half of EAF . Human eyeball is still extremely efficient in daylight . Egyptians had at times cooperated , at times didn't . Even Pearl Harbour wasn't like this ; though Clark Field / Iba makes an alluring match . MiGs wingtip to wingtip on the runways , to be blown apart ; if you attribute this to the shock of some unexpected attack on November 2nd , French jets attacking Luxor deep in Egypt would find two rows of Il-28 bombers boxed together to make a more compact target ! Making one long line could tempt the Allied pilots to make a long strafing run on a predictable path along the axis of the runway . ( In 1991 this predictability contributed to the 5 losses of RAF Tornados . )

hence even if November 3rd opened with the regular fixation of MiGs MiGs and one Canberra damaged , this time over Luxor , Russians didn't have the planes to fly for effect and their lethal contribution was limited to the single shoot-down already alluded to and they didn't claim the victory until 1990s . They were ready to attack Budapest though . ( Regarding the everyother day show , apparently there were no Canberras on the Fifth , so it must have become strafing runs against the British airdrop at the Gamil airfield , though the single account moves it to the 6th and reports a single MiG-15 . No other sources refer to it . )

 

[r16]

nasser was doing allright . The Anglo-French air attacks had come at the right moment , Israelis having broken trough in Northern Sinai . Instead of losing to hated Israelis , a defeat in the hands of Europeans who were strolling in the streets just a couple of years ago as the masters of the country was much better . Propaganda machine talked of great victories against Tel Aviv , ruined by perfidious aerial attacks , the stab in the back . Wikipedia itself is full of negativity against Nasser and "the non-existent "Stalingrad which was Port Said"" .

russians were somewhat out of the woods , Red Army was their trump card and it would steamroll over the Hungarian uprising . This is how despite their inability to influence the events in Egypt , they considerably toughened their language with the Allied airdrops . Entente Cordiale could never ever remain true to any kind of promises ; Premier Bulganin must have relished threatening the Great Britain with a letter that said :

How would Great Britain would act if she was attacked by stronger Nations that had every kind of modern weapons for destruction? Such Nations will not only send aircraft carriers to the shores of England, but might also use other weapons, such as missiles. ( Personal translation to English from the Turkish source )

germans were not happy , they saw their assets were specifically hunted down . To make up for the influence they lost in Europe hence in Washington , they would establish a rocket programme for Nasser , infiltrating Egypt for CIA (besides re-developing their aviation industry) to be balanced by the transfer of American supplied tanks to Israel in the 1960s .

eisenhower knew he had the election but still unhappy , especially with the fact that the set of photos taken by the U-2 that overflew Cairo on November 1st had reached London before it had been to Washington . The sole rationale for CIA to have an air reconnaissance arm was to stop the likes of Curtis LeMay from interfering with intelligence gathering to justify this "pre-emptive" nuclear strike on the Russians and the spooks apparently had trouble deciding for whom they were working . ( There are lots of totally credible sources that record Eisenhower had signed the papers for the Powers flight of May 1960 , but that is getting ahead of the present story - to the days when he was losing control . )

the French discovered they had a brotherly love affair with the Germans , considering the immediate U-turn of London as America showed teeth , they had nobody else to trust .

as for the British the week long preparation for these 4 posts has been tiresome and Wikipedia has lots of suggestions to look for , though it omits one . The MiGs MiGs case contributed somewhat to the defence review the British were preparing at the time . The future belonged to the missiles as the unstoppable vector of nuclear weapons , research work on them would ineviatably mean the curtailment of similar work on aircraft , which were so easy to intercept with anti-aircraft missiles in any case . With great fanfare , London would declare the end of manned aircraft in 1957 . Russians fell for it , considering Khruschev was just about to shake the planet with the launching of Sputnik , in the end he cashiered thousands of fighter pilots and scrapped a multitude of tactical jets . The next MiG was practically state subsidizing of the Mikoyan Gurevich Design Office , and the -21 lacked a proper weapons system for years - would hurt the Soviets in the end . Americans had an ace in the sleeve , the F-4 Phantom and it survived as an all missile interceptor for the aircraft carriers which lacked the depth of land based radar nets and SAM belts . Considering the USN needed the carriers firstly as atomic attack instruments for political reasons in their semi-existantial fight against the USAF and later as escorts to Polaris submarines with comparatively shorter missile range , Phantom was just about to signal the American dominance of military aviation industry . The French , who refused the British approach probably only because it was British came up with the Mirage series sold to anybody who couldn't buy American and loathed Russians at the same time . Considering it was a brisk business for the French and not the UK , the noted aviation writer Bill Gunston had quite a reason to slam the 1957 Defence Paper whenever he could ...

in the end when the Russians survived the peril they were facing -Eisenhower apparently believed that Hungary would have been saved and ergo Warsaw Pact crashing to the ground with eventual dismemberment of the Communist threat , but for the collusion of Paris , London and Tel Aviv- and the Soviet influence spread to the Middle East , the British had extra chances to rewrite the history . They now had Ike complaining on why they followed his desire to stop , while logic and reason dictated they should have continued . Though on firmer ground with Dulles , the US secretary of the State who , quoting from Wikipedia ,

During a visit by the UK Foreign Secretary, Selwyn Lloyd ... asked, '... Why didn't you go through with it and get Nasser down?' A surprised Lloyd replied, 'If you had so much as winked at us ...'. Winking can become laborious at times , if not difficult ...

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

Not to sidetrack the narrative, but...

Going back a few posts, how does Turkey effectively maintain neutrality during the Cold War without being dominated by either camp or drawn into a fight with xyz neighbor at some point?