A Nahua Geek's Issues With The Civ 5 "Aztec" Civilization

[KIEJ.MANIK]

I consider myself a bit of a Nahua geek, I read alot about the civilization people like to call "The Aztecs". As a byproduct of my research I've had some grievances with "The Aztecs" of Civilization 5 that I would like to address, and I hope some of you would agree with me

• First off, this is always a pet peeve of mine, not that big of an issue but I feel I should address it, they weren't called 'The Aztecs", Aztecs refers to the people of Aztlan which is where the Mexihca migrated from, Mexihtli told them not to call themselves that anymore after they left so they called themselves the Mexihca meaning with or by means of Mexihtli, although since the Tenochcas doesn't cover the whole of civilization in Central Mexico I would much prefer if the Civilization was called the Nahuas
• Second of all, I really think that the Jaguar Warrior should be a Classical Era unit, it is a unit of the classical era and the Mohawk Warrior is a classical era unit, I don't see how the Jaguar Warrior is a less advanced unit than the Mohawk Warrior, it should replace the swordsman, perhaps should be slightly weaker but keep the bonuses it had and should not require iron to produce, also, again not a big issue, why do they always do "Jaguar Warriors" it wasn't the only Warrior Order and certaintly not the highest, I would like to see them do Cuachicqueh for once
• I recall there being Calmecac instead of Floating Gardens listed as The UU before they developed the game on the Civ 5 site, that's something I'd have liked to see, illustrating that they weren't just a barbaric civilization they had arts and sciences and the first public education system, it would give a small bonus to culture, science and military experience since the Calmecac taught all these things, and they would be small bonuses as to not make it overpowered
• Sacrificial Captives was really cool, but then they did that patch that gave other Civilizations culture for killing barbarians after they adopt Honor, which is all well and good, my problem was them not adding anything to the Civ specific bonus for the Aztecs. Sure Aztecs also get culture for killing non barbarain military units but I still feel Aztecs should get another little bonus to perhaps even it out a bit
• Although I much prefer Motecuhzoma Ilhuicamina to Motecuhzoma Xocoyotzin as leader I prefer Tlacael I think he made much greater changes
• It'd be nice to see some semblance of the panketzalli as the flag, although I know it's controversial it's the best representation of a flag http://www.mexicauprising.net/mexicaflag.html

I know not all of these changes will likely be implemented although the change of the Jaguar Warrior to Classical Era and the change to the Civ Specific bonus isn't too much to ask. I'd like to see the game or Modders try to implemement these changes

 

[insaneweasel]

Be happy they used the "good" Montezuma this game
Expecting firaxis/2k to go in-depth in civ development is futile. These guys put Mao and Stalin in Civ 4, remember?

 

[CYZ]

Strongly agree with the position of the jag warrior in the tech tree. Especially compared to the mohawk their positions should probably be switched (mohawk to warrior, jag to swordsmen).

For all the rest, try playing a true-to-history game because those things are the last I'd want the devs to put effort in tbh.

 

[KIEJ.MANIK]

Strongly agree with the position of the jag warrior in the tech tree. Especially compared to the mohawk their positions should probably be switched (mohawk to warrior, jag to swordsmen).

For all the rest, try playing a true-to-history game because those things are the last I'd want the devs to put effort in tbh.

The other ones don't matter that much, that one I'd really like, also the Calmecac

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Moved to General Discussions.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Especially compared to the mohawk their positions should probably be switched (mohawk to warrior, jag to swordsmen).

Why? The height of Mohawk power was after the height of Aztec power (of course, it was also after the Dutch sold them firearms, so it shouldn't be a warrior at all, but leaving that aside for the moment).

 

[Revoran]

Why? The height of Mohawk power was after the height of Aztec power (of course, it was also after the Dutch sold them firearms, so it shouldn't be a warrior at all, but leaving that aside for the moment).

Both the Jaguar and Mohawk are somewhat in between a Warrior and Swordsman.

The Iroquois and Aztecs never progressed past a Classical Era level of technology anyway so the point is moot. Though to be honest the tech tree is very Euro-centric - this is understandable after the renaiisance as Europeans were leading technological development by then, however in the ancient / classical eras the rest of the world took some different paths and the tech tree doesnt really represent that.

Hell the Iroquois didn't even build cities in the traditional sense.

 

[Morningcalm]

KIEJ.MANIK, I agree with you on the Jaguar. The Mexica arrived pretty late in Mesoamerica's scene, and the jaguar should be a medieval/Renaissance Era unit, technically. The fact that it's so weak early game is rather insulting too.

Out of curiosity, can you speak/translate Nahuatl? There's a lot of stuff in Montezuma's Civ V speech that still hasn't been translated, and I was wondering if you could provide that for a Language thread (marked with a star, it's a topic in this forum).

 

[Louis XXIV]

Both the Jaguar and Mohawk are somewhat in between a Warrior and Swordsman.

So why should the Jaguar be ahead of the Mohawk in the tech tree?

 

[CYZ]

Why? The height of Mohawk power was after the height of Aztec power (of course, it was also after the Dutch sold them firearms, so it shouldn't be a warrior at all, but leaving that aside for the moment).

You're talking about dates in time. This is not relevant since their position in the tech tree is based on technological progression.

Mohawks were 100% tribal warrior that do not represent the level of organization (within the empire and the millitary units) of a swordsmen imo. The jaguar comes alot closer, and a weaker no-iron version would make sense to me.

 

[awesome]

KIEJ.MANIK, I agree with you on the Jaguar. The Mexica arrived pretty late in Mesoamerica's scene, and the jaguar should be a medieval/Renaissance Era unit, technically. The fact that it's so weak early game is rather insulting too.

i don't know about it being insulting that the unit comes early, but kind of i agree that it should be medieval. but you can kind of say the same thing about the mohawks and slingers.

 

[Louis XXIV]

You're talking about dates in time. This is not relevant since their position in the tech tree is based on technological progression.

Mohawks were 100% tribal warrior that do not represent the level of organization (within the empire and the millitary units) of a swordsmen imo. The jaguar comes alot closer, and a weaker no-iron version would make sense to me.

To me, swordsmen represent those who fought with iron weapons (ideally with swords if I can ask for that much). If neither side regularly worked iron for military use, I don't think there's really a good argument for either side on this issue. At least the Mohawk Warrior forces the Iroquois to be later than the Jaguar when it comes to dominance chronologically (although still not late enough). In reality, I'd argue the Jaguar should be a swordsman replacement, but the Mohawk Warrior should be a Musketman replacement. Of course, with the late development of corn as a successful cereal crop, there's no good way to peg everything into the tech tree.

 

[CivOasis]

I agree with you on the Jaguar's position (the Aztecs were consider a medieval civ, after all).
My major pet peeve, though, is the city names.
I've counted several civs in there:
Mexica (of course, they should be there)
Tarascans (rivaled with the Mexica)
Atzcopalcans (sp.) (Mexica lived under their rule prior to Tenochtitlan)
Tlaxcalans (Not only were they enemies, they were allied with the Spanish. The 6,000 warriors they gave to the spanish probably did a good deal of damage to the Mexica, too.)
Teotihuacan (What the heck? Wrong time, wrong civ.. They have more in common with the Mayans, and should probably be a CS)

I understand what they did with Denmark and Polynesia, but it not only was unnecessary, but illogical when it came to the Aztecs.

By the way, what does your signature say?

 

[Hustapha Thool]

I am a bit of a "Nahua geek" myself, but the bulk of my studies of America are more centered toward the Maya. That aside, I really want to agree with a change in the jaguar warrior as far as game play goes. They are really nothing special, especially post patches. The game is not designed in any way in which a warrior class unit is effective in any way other than to support archers. Warrior class is just to weak against much stronger starting cities. This is really evident at longer speeds, which I love to play. When I roll Aztecs, I will usually build a jaguar instead of a scout, but that is the extent of the use of this unit. I seriously doubt anyone builds many warriors, even jaguars on standard speed game-play. Most games I never build more than one, if that. Archers are the rulers of this era.

Calmecac instead of Floating Gardens? My argument is going to be a bit weak because it is still map and tile specific but instead of, or better, in addition to lakes, I would like to see a start bias toward marshes and have a bonus to them, at the very least, when worked, they are able to substitute for a lake, fulfilling the requirement for floating gardens. and in the later eras fulfilling the requirement for being camped by a river.

Sacrificial Captives? Not sure what I would change with this. My first thought would be some sort of advantage, probably cultural with puppeted cities. This was their true strength.


Last Note, Where is my Mayan CIV!

 

[Roxlimn]

Er, wait, what? I had been under the strongest impression that the Jaguar Warrior was one of the strongest UUs in the game. I mean, I have no objection to moving them elsewhere, but surely, they're quite buff, right?

 

[Louis XXIV]

BTW, I wouldn't change the name of the Civ. It's how it's established in English. I also wouldn't change the name of the Iroquois, Germans, or Japanese. However, it would have been nice if the voice actor for Montezuma had said "Mexica" or whatever, rather than "Azteca."

 

[awesome]

just to add to that last post, at least half of the civilizations in the game have a different name for themselves than the ones in english and most of them would just confuse tons of people.

 

[Babri]

I am a bit of a "Nahua geek" myself, but the bulk of my studies of America are more centered toward the Maya. That aside, I really want to agree with a change in the jaguar warrior as far as game play goes. They are really nothing special, especially post patches. The game is not designed in any way in which a warrior class unit is effective in any way other than to support archers. Warrior class is just to weak against much stronger starting cities. This is really evident at longer speeds, which I love to play. When I roll Aztecs, I will usually build a jaguar instead of a scout, but that is the extent of the use of this unit. I seriously doubt anyone builds many warriors, even jaguars on standard speed game-play. Most games I never build more than one, if that. Archers are the rulers of this era.

Agreed completely. The only reason why I build Jaguars is that when I upgrade them to swords, I'll get all those cool bonuses. They really need to buff warriors to make warrior rushes possible. Post patch AI loves warrior rush so that might help them as well.

 

[Roxlimn]

Babri:

Well, I for one, build Jaguars because they're more expedient for hunting down and killing Barbarian units for that sweet, sweet culture boost. And they're cheap, too. In a recent Aztec game, I built 8 Jaguars for just this purpose, for garrison, and to use for later. Never had to build any other mainline units - I just upgraded my 8 Jaguar through the centuries, and they kicked major butt.

Woodsman, vampiric jungle specialist Infantry are awesome.

 

[Uberfrog]

They really need to buff warriors to make warrior rushes possible. Post patch AI loves warrior rush so that might help them as well.

I scarcely think being wiped out in the stone age by a higher-difficulty AI with a ridiculous number of souped-up warriors is the satisfying tactical AI everyone's been after.