A Primer on the ringi system

[Provolution]

Dear People

I have added a primer on the Japanese Ringi system for decision.making.
Even though some may not respect my humble proposals to make Japanatica more effective, I still hope that some people may consider the real Japan deal. Japan is beyond samurais as an UU, a militaristic and religious culture with some weird food traditions, karaoke and karate, also a Civilization with a very distinct decisionmaking culture that have been exported to the West.

So for those who wants to learn a little bit on the thinking behind such a system, please read on, if it takes to much of your valuable time, or it is to heavy and analytical for you, please check out this link for localized US colloquial translation at your behest http://www.asksnoop.com/



__________________________

The traditional way of Japanese organizational decision making is the
“Ringi System” (Ouchi, 1981). This system started in the 19th century, by
leaving the substantial job of policymaking to the lower-upper or uppermiddle
level members of the hierarchy, in order to make it possible for the top
to escape from taking responsibility, by imputing it to those who made the
drafts of the policies. The word “Ringi” means obtaining approval on a proposed matter through vertical, and sometimes horizontal,
circulation of documents to the concerned members in the organization. As an
administrative procedure, it consists of four steps: proposal, circulation, approval, and record. From this process, it is the middle management who take or are expected to take the initiative in making
proposals and making the substantial decisions, and the seniors manage political affairs to back up them. Under this Ringi
System many people including lower management automatically participate in the decision-making process.

In addition, the Ringi System also has some other advantages that attributed to the uniqueness of Japanese management system such as fewer aspects of the decision are overlooked, the trauma that accompanies change is reduced, participants feel committed to implementing a decision they have helped to formulate, and far bolder decisions can be made. There is no denying that the rapid growth of the Japanese economy after the War was supported by this
organizational decision making system.

 

[Black_Hole]

let me see if i get u correctly:
lets say the governor starts a proposal for a city site, this is then passed on to the domestic advisor who decides whether it would be in a productive area, then its passed on to the cultural advisor who decides if its boundaries would fit in good, then its passed on to the military advisor who decides whether it is strategic.

i got much of that from your last thread... then each minister votes on it b4 it makes it to the public right?
this would be optimal, but Im afraid there may not be enough time to do this all, considering turnchats are every 3 days

mayb if we could shorten it somehow...

 

[Bobby Lee]

Just let me say this...

TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME TIME...

ok now that I have gotten that out of my system...

We have to keep in mind that as great as this system sounds, and I will agree, it sounds very effective, it will take much more time. With turnchats every 3 days there is no guarantee that this can be circulated quickly enough. I applaud your effort but until I actually SEE otherwise I must condemn it as impractical.

 

[GenMarshall]

...karate...

Did I hear someone mention a sport that I do?

 

[Provolution]

let me see if i get u correctly:
lets say the governor starts a proposal for a city site, this is then passed on to the domestic advisor who decides whether it would be in a productive area, then its passed on to the cultural advisor who decides if its boundaries would fit in good, then its passed on to the military advisor who decides whether it is strategic.

i got much of that from your last thread... then each minister votes on it b4 it makes it to the public right?
this would be optimal, but Im afraid there may not be enough time to do this all, considering turnchats are every 3 days

mayb if we could shorten it somehow...

Hehe LOL


Ok, I will make a short version so you see how simple it is in reality

.1 Imagine, you Bobbie Lee, wants to propose a City and win everyone for your case. You can win it by fair reasoning, analysis, logic and patient convincing, or you can go for the quick fix bullying and condescending rhtoric
that I am right and you are wrong and you suck and so on.
That is the light side and the dark side.

1.
The light side requires you to assess the tile production in food, shields and commerce at least within the current government, and if you are capable, add bonuses with land development and new government. If the area is not explored, people is not likely to support you.
That is 50 % of the evaluation there, pretty easy huh?

2.
You submit that tile comparison draft to the President, VP and the 6 Ministers, as well as the Official Cartographer and the Governor.
This is easy, we are probably goinf to have a city proposal thread for that, directly linked to the Cities thread. These parties will all consider the planned location with their own departmental interests in it, and grade it partly on their assessment on the tile value, and partly on what the interest is in the city for their department. A city with many shields is better for the War Department, commerce for Science and Culture and food for Domestic.
These will give 0-5 for the tiles and 0-5 for their department interest.
A paragraph of 3-5 lines will follow to explain the grade 0-10.
Each of these will spend 3-10 minutes to do the job.


3. Then the Judiciary look at the proposal, consider the level of corruption in the city, may or may not recommend a courthouse or police station. They will also check quickly a list of criteria to see if it is a legitimate proposal, and grade it 0-10 points based on criteria which are not tiles. This review is done in 3-10 minutes, again with 3-5 paragraphs.

4.
The Domestic Minister will select and poll the top two alternatives of the placement of one settler to the Congress/Senate (Public Poll), where each Congressman/Senator/Citizen give their vote.
The Domestic Minister will be free to present his preferred alternative to the two to the congress (Public Poll), and will present both alternatives in full. The Domestic Minister and Governor will also be in charge of the naming process of the city, appointing a Mayor and the other duties related to administering cities,
The Domestic Minister may give some of these tasks to his Deputy, an Assistant or the Official Cartographer, who records the maps/docs.

In Practice, it will take you some 20 minutes to make a proposal with a printed screen with the city location marked and tiles counted for.
It will take the government and Judiciary less than 24 hours to handle your proposal, and if they do not handle it, their individual track records would make them look bad, and they would lose individual credibility. The Domestic Minister will then be able to present the two best options, in his opinion, with his personal recommendation in a poll. where the two alternatives are presented with maps, a grade of 0-100, and a short document of 3-4 paragraps stating the pros and cons and tilevalues of the proposal.
Then each citizen will vote publicly, with every opportunity to comment in the city proposal thread, on what they like best of the two offered options.
This poll will run as any poll, but would not have the problem with runoff polls, confueion of outcome, electoral fraud, creative interpretations of the polls and so on. There will be two options, plain and simple, one winner and one loser. If you spent 10 % of your energy attacking me and seeking holes in my argumentation in order to belittle me Bobbie Lee, and everyone did the same, this would work like a clockwork.

The briliant part is, no lazy, dumb or illoyal person can clog the flow of this system by not participating or placing blame, everything is transparent and everyone knows who is accountable for each part. This can also be applied to proposed warplans, in which I think you could do an excellent job, diplomatic plans and cultural plans. I hope you understand the vision better now.

A fast and fair system with accountable government and citizens.

 

[Black_Hole]

Hehe LOL


Ok, I will make a short version so you see how simple it is in reality

.1 Imagine, you Bobbie Lee, wants to propose a City and win everyone for your case. You can win it by fair reasoning, analysis, logic and patient convincing, or you can go for the quick fix bullying and condescending rhtoric
that I am right and you are wrong and you suck and so on.
That is the light side and the dark side.

1.
The light side requires you to assess the tile production in food, shields and commerce at least within the current government, and if you are capable, add bonuses with land development and new government. If the area is not explored, people is not likely to support you.
That is 50 % of the evaluation there, pretty easy huh?

2.
You submit that tile comparison draft to the President, VP and the 6 Ministers, as well as the Official Cartographer and the Governor.
This is easy, we are probably goinf to have a city proposal thread for that, directly linked to the Cities thread. These parties will all consider the planned location with their own departmental interests in it, and grade it partly on their assessment on the tile value, and partly on what the interest is in the city for their department. A city with many shields is better for the War Department, commerce for Science and Culture and food for Domestic.
These will give 0-5 for the tiles and 0-5 for their department interest.
A paragraph of 3-5 lines will follow to explain the grade 0-10.
Each of these will spend 3-10 minutes to do the job.


3. Then the Judiciary look at the proposal, consider the level of corruption in the city, may or may not recommend a courthouse or police station. They will also check quickly a list of criteria to see if it is a legitimate proposal, and grade it 0-10 points based on criteria which are not tiles. This review is done in 3-10 minutes, again with 3-5 paragraphs.

4.
The Domestic Minister will select and poll the top two alternatives of the placement of one settler to the Congress/Senate (Public Poll), where each Congressman/Senator/Citizen give their vote.
The Domestic Minister will be free to present his preferred alternative to the two to the congress (Public Poll), and will present both alternatives in full. The Domestic Minister and Governor will also be in charge of the naming process of the city, appointing a Mayor and the other duties related to administering cities,
The Domestic Minister may give some of these tasks to his Deputy, an Assistant or the Official Cartographer, who records the maps/docs.

In Practice, it will take you some 20 minutes to make a proposal with a printed screen with the city location marked and tiles counted for.
It will take the government and Judiciary less than 24 hours to handle your proposal, and if they do not handle it, their individual track records would make them look bad, and they would lose individual credibility. The Domestic Minister will then be able to present the two best options, in his opinion, with his personal recommendation in a poll. where the two alternatives are presented with maps, a grade of 0-100, and a short document of 3-4 paragraps stating the pros and cons and tilevalues of the proposal.
Then each citizen will vote publicly, with every opportunity to comment in the city proposal thread, on what they like best of the two offered options.
This poll will run as any poll, but would not have the problem with runoff polls, confueion of outcome, electoral fraud, creative interpretations of the polls and so on. There will be two options, plain and simple, one winner and one loser. If you spent 10 % of your energy attacking me and seeking holes in my argumentation in order to belittle me Bobbie Lee, and everyone did the same, this would work like a clockwork.

The briliant part is, no lazy, dumb or illoyal person can clog the flow of this system by not participating or placing blame, everything is transparent and everyone knows who is accountable for each part. This can also be applied to proposed warplans, in which I think you could do an excellent job, diplomatic plans and cultural plans. I hope you understand the vision better now.

A fast and fair system with accountable government and citizens.

i dont believe people bully now, they just dont make it as formal and time consuming as you would like to do

 

[Provolution]

Well, this is maybe formal, but not timeconsuming, and yes, we are a nation with a consitution, laws, institutions and unwritten laws, This is no anarchy.
If people cannot count up the measle 6-12 tiles around the city and submit that and a map screenie in a thread, then I would not recommend anyone to vote for that.
This system rewards well founded proposals, not yelling and impulses.

 

[Bobby Lee]

Being as I really don't much care about where the cities are, except that they generate large amounts of income and can turn out sufficient production that they are not useless, the system itself doesn't bother me. I have very little in the way of any intention to propose the location of any city ever. For that reason I must say, I don't really care what the process is for finding where to place it except that it works, doesn't cut people out of the process (for democratic reasons), doesn't bar people from political office (there are enough constraints as is), and (did I mention that it) works.

I also wish to say I don't much like your references to any kind of argument except one that presents numbers as "the dark side". There are many arguments on many issues that are not a matter of numbers but of principle.

 

[blackheart]

This proposal is too time consuming. We aren't full time government officials in the Japanese government. I really don't believe the Ringi system accepts change that much since conservatives run the gov don't they? This system would require a majority of the elected officials to have fast responses and vast amounts of time, which very few have. A noteworthy idea but not suitable for a demogame.

 

[Provolution]

Blackheart,


Well, you are right about it, Japan can be slow and connservative, and I can sense that it was too much information to be digested at once.

I see that many people do not understand that this will save time and guarantee accountability. The main problem is that people are not willing to change.

Yet I believe this simple little system may help on a lot of problems, and Blackheart, you have proven yourself bright and respectable in many forum exchanges, so there is not a problem, just add your own amendment to the process, as long as we work on improving the decision system for cities, and do not seek to preserve that system. Please give constructive ideas on how you want to see this work out.

 

[Provolution]

Vast amounts of time, to give 0-10 points and 3-5 lines? You definitively need some coffee. That is not much time at all. Plus, not the majority of ministers are forced to do it, it just becomes transparent who delivers and who does not deliver.

 

[Comnenus]

You might consider using some "honey", Provo. I realize you are very passionate and committed to your philosophy; however, you are verging on the point of attacking people, at times even your supporters when they present an alternative point. If you are dogmatic, you won't get your point considered, but if you bend like the willow... well, you know the rest.

 

[blackheart]

Provolution you have to remember we can't maximize the efficieny of all the cities and some cities are built so that they are just there and other civs don't claim that territory.

Why are the judiciary involved in the Ringi system? Isn't it the domestic minister and governor's job to decide what to built in cities? There is also a potential breakdown of the system due to bickering over where the next city goes. Some departments might want this and other departments might want that, which would leave the domestic minister in a tight spot to decide.

 

[Provolution]

Not really, we see the same debate in scinece and wonders, some departments want this and some departments wants that. Blackheart, you are right, but what the cities do and where they are located directly impact every departments job to do anything. In a poll, people would know what different departments think of city positions. Besides, this system is not only addressing tile values, a city of good tiles, but of no strategic interest
would not sore maximum, and that is where the Domestic Minister can overrule the score and point out these advantages with others.

The same pressure applies to FA, where we would have to appease the Trade people
by promoting luxury trades balanced to national security, science people to tech trades which is also delicate, declarations of war impacting the military people, our very procedural actions watched by the Judicial people. All departments are already politically put in a hard spot. We saw the first turnchat how pressed Domestic was, in an unstructured and chaotic way. Now, everyone will see what every Department and
institution wants, and support what the future role of that city will be in the polls.

Several discussions will not flare up to solve crisis upon crisis, and we will be able to discuss more of the fun stuff like national religion and so on.

I hope you are in on this one Balckheart