A small question - cotteges vs workshops vs windmills

[Handel]

From what I read the player should replace the cottages with workshops when the right techs/civics are researched. I understand production-wise the workshops are great (obviously) and they can give gold too, but how they can compensate for the lost research? I may make a mistake but isn't the commerce research multiplication much higher then the research which can be produced through the workshops?
Also later in the game the AI changes everything into windmills. And there comes the same question - the windmills are better food-wise but what about the research?

 

[lymond]

When I build cottages in a city it's cause I want that city to have cottages. I don't bulldoze them later for workshops/watermills. The only exception is if my research requirements are complete and I want to boost hammers in a particular city for UN or Space Parts.

Otherwise, if my game is going late like that workshops/watermills/windmills are far better improvements in new, capture and existing cities (but not bulldozing existing cottages). When you compare hammer conversion to wealth and research at that point in the game to new developing cottages it doesn't compare. At this point you have additional production modifiers like Factories/Plants in many cities, plus Mining Corp or State Property. Build wealth to the point you can run 100% slider and build research in other cities. The wealth building allows you to get the most out of your existing commerce/science cities (by maxing slider) and then building research adds on top of that. You can really pump out some serious BPTs in large nicely developed empires this way.

Note the bonus certain techs and civics give to workshops/watermills/windmills. That is the time to start moving to more of a hammer economy. (Although you can still prep tiles for these improvements such as pre-windmilling some riverside mines prior to Rep Parts or Electricity or laying down some workshops on some tiles that your cities will eventually grow into later.)

Windmills: Look at it this way. First, Windmills provide some pretty nice commerce after Electricity. They maintain good production after Rep Parts while increasing food and commerce on hills. The extra food means you grow onto even more high production tiles like workshops. Increasing the citizens in you city obviously increases that city's output whether it be hammers, commerce or great people.

Watermills are pretty nice too after all the bonus kick in.

I usually don't switch to Windmills until after Rep Parts, but I might pre-build them on existing mines prior to getting RP.

Next game you have that goes late, try building a city on a river somewhere with a couple of food resources and some hills. Build workshops, watermills and windmills and supporting infra, especially forges, factories and plants. Notice the hammer output of the city. Now build wealth in that city.

 

[Jerrymander]

This is only dependent on what each city is doing. If you have a commerce heavy city on a river with mature towns, it isn't worth it to bulldoze those towns and replace them with production buildings, because the city is focused on being an economic powerhouse. If, however, you have a city working a copper mine and horses with already respectable production, it will usually be worthy to replace a 4 commerce town with a 4 hammer workshop, because the city is designed for production.

So, should the player replace cottages with workshops when the right techs are researched? Yes, but only in those cities that you have designated as production cities. Of course, if you've reached the last technology you want to research (Rifling, as England, for example) you can destroy your economy in an attempt to win with one long war.

 

[Habitus]

The only points I'll add to lymond is that in captured cities in the later game, if its not matured to a town, or isn't likely be worked and become a town somewhat soon I often will then bulldoze over them, also if replacing mines/cottages (since AI likes to build them on hills too) with windmills do the non-riverside ones first if you have any plans for golden ages in near future as this then lets you get the commerce bonus iwth them aswell (riverside gets it anyway)

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

this is very interesting, I never thought about this, I will try that in some game

 

[Manco Capac]

There is one case I bulldoze my cottage city: when I reach the final SS part tech and convert that city to a really strong hammer city for building those SS parts. Often the capital too...

 

[iggymnrr]

Windmills and waterwheels are better for building workers than cottages. But then I'm usually playing the lower levels with space in (my) mind. 3+ to 4+ workers per city dictates not waiting for RP or electro to mass build workers. The maturity rate for windmills and waterwheels is unparalleled compared to cottages. (I might be the only person in this forum that builds too many workers. )

 

[simishag]

I will often replace some mines with windmills later in the game when cities have too many hammers and not enough food. I know, I know, there's no such thing as "too many hammers", but you have to look at each city carefully to make sure that it's working all its tiles, and that it's not stuck with unusable mines. Windmills aren't really worth building until the bonuses kick in, unless you really need food in a tundra city or something.

Waterwheels are nice but I find that if I don't build them early (ahead of the bonuses) I'll end up building a riverside Cottage instead, and then I won't want to bulldoze the Town later.

 

[Chase_2_Rabbits]

It's not something that comes up a lot, but I've bulldozed cottages for workshops after switching to State Property; although I left my most mature, riverside commerce city as it was.

 

[rfcfanatic]

Rep. parts + Electricity + Environmentalism makes windmills very powerful.

 

[CivNoobie]

so when i'm at the end stage of space race, do i want environmentalism or state property?

 

[lymond]

so when i'm at the end stage of space race, do i want environmentalism or state property?

you have to be joking...i'm hoping you are joking

 

[Handel]

so when i'm at the end stage of space race, do i want environmentalism or state property?

Do you ask what will give better final score *after* you finished and launched your spaceship?

 

[rfcfanatic]

so when i'm at the end stage of space race, do i want environmentalism or state property?

Good question. I cannot comment on higher difficulties though, but on Noble I can win space race using my standard late-game combo of civics: Representation - Free Speech - Emancipation - Environmentalism - Free Religion.

Env and SP both improve city growth. Env does it via health bonuses while SP does it via food bonuses. Why I prefer Env is because it saves my disease-rotten industrial cities from starvation. Less food lost to unhealthiness = more hammer tiles worked.

 

[CivNoobie]

you have to be joking...i'm hoping you are joking

how is this a joke?

let's see SP gives more hammer which is needed to build all those annoying parts

but environmentalism gives health and gold which are needed to grow the city bigger and gives a bit more commerce.

-------------------------------------

I'd run either hereditary rule/U.S. + Bureaucracy + Emancipation + S.P./Environmentalism + Free religion/Organized Religion

 

[ben-jammin]

Then your handle is appropriate. Environmentalism is easily the most useless civic there is in civ iv. Especially since it's a civic you would have to choose over three other strong civics. I mean...I'm confused as to how you could possibly think environmentalism helps you build SS parts.

 

[Apricottage]

Good question. I cannot comment on higher difficulties though, but on Noble I can win space race using my standard late-game combo of civics: Representation - Free Speech - Emancipation - Environmentalism - Free Religion.

Env and SP both improve city growth. Env does it via health bonuses while SP does it via food bonuses. Why I prefer Env is because it saves my disease-rotten industrial cities from starvation. Less food lost to unhealthiness = more hammer tiles worked.

I usually find that after I've traded for some health resources and built a little health infrastructure, that I usually am running out of tiles to work long before I run out of health. I think you're also neglecting to mention the 10% bonus to hammers from State Property, as well as the huge maintenance reduction. Even if in the very endgame Environmentalism is superior, State Property is better for a long, long time and revolting to Environmentalism will lose you a turn in most situations.

Could you explain your choice of Free Speech over Bureaucracy, and of Representation over Universal Suffrage (allows faster infrastructure buildup and gives more hammers to your capital)?

 

[vranasm]

In my history of games I remember only 1 game (gauntlet) where heading for Enviromentalism proved to be strongest strategy.

It was OCC settler space race G-minor...

in normal space race on noble I am sure iggy uses State property, not sure now if Pollina used state property in the current best epic noble standard space race, but I think he did (current best date is 1350 AD btw).

On Emperor+ I think best strategy is corporations (I think bcool regularly uses them and he just wins every emperor+ space gauntlet/challenge/whatever)

I can say from my experience that on noble workshops/watermills economy is very strong and you actually can prebuild workshops "everywhere" and use caste instead of slavery

if you go for space and if you don't...well you stomp landlocked map on HA's so why even talk about cottages x workshops?

 

[iggymnrr]

In my history of games I remember only 1 game (gauntlet) where heading for Enviromentalism proved to be strongest strategy.

It was OCC settler space race G-minor...

in normal space race on noble I am sure iggy uses State property, not sure now if Pollina used state property in the current best epic noble standard space race, but I think he did (current best date is 1350 AD btw).

Somehow the question posed by the OP inspired me to try an environmentalism settler game and a 4 1/2 year old record fell easily on a trial attempt. Small map at 490 A.D. with 25 cities and 100 workers. Only 7 towns total, all in the capitol. The heavy lifting was done by 201 windmills. At marathon on a highlands map environmentalism is natural. At epic speed and an inland sea, state property may be best. My philosophy is to sell your soul to your endgame civic. Windmill up with environmentalism and waterwheel up with state property. I'm somewhat tempted to try some kind of monarch game and see how environmentalism fares. At marathon, 500 A.D to 1000 A.D is 100 turns or 25% longer than 4000 B.C. to 500 A.D.

 

[rfcfanatic]

I think you're also neglecting to mention the 10% bonus to hammers from State Property, as well as the huge maintenance reduction. Even if in the very endgame Environmentalism is superior, State Property is better for a long, long time and revolting to Environmentalism will lose you a turn in most situations.

The bad thing about SP is that it disables the corps. Why should I run SP while I can get the hammers from Mining Inc? I'm still to learn the virtues of SP and very often I found myself pulling Communism via the Internet.

I usually try to time the switch from Free Market to Environmentalism with a golden age. Or postpone it until the completion of Cristo Redentor.

Could you explain your choice of Free Speech over Bureaucracy, and of Representation over Universal Suffrage (allows faster infrastructure buildup and gives more hammers to your capital)?

Free Speech vs Bureaucracy can be tricky. Not always I choose Free Speech over Bureaucracy. Sometimes the Oxford + Academy + Bureaucracy is such a powerful combination that it would require several high-commerce cities for Free Speech to be more beneficial for research than Bureaucracy. In the Saladin game of the Nobles' club it happened to me that the switch to FS actually reduced the number of beakers per turn. Next time I should do the calculations carefully before I plan to switch.

Unlike FS vs Bureaucracy, Representation vs Universal Suffrage is pretty clear to me. Without any micromanagement, I usually have a lot of specialists in my cities in that phase of the game. So why not let these specialists to produce additional beakers with Rep?

US only adds a mediocre amount of hammers to commerce cities, so there isn't much benefit other than getting the infra done a little bit faster. Universities and banks come early enough that they can be completed using a whip. If there's still a need to get anything done, I'll prefer slow-building a Levee to sacrificing my research.

I think that building the parts as fast as possible isn't everything. It also matters how fast you get the techs that unlock the parts.