A Spy Has Been Stumbled Upon (Penalties, Retaliation and Double Agents...)

[agoodfella]

I think its a major flaw in the new Espionage function that we are not able to retaliate for exposing another Civs spy operating in our territory (whether friend or foe).

There should be a function in the Diplomacy screen for some kind of concession or penalty (particularly given that we get penalized for having our spies exposed).

Thoughts?

 

[greggbert]

It's up to you to retaliate! I always ask them for tribute right after this just so they know I'm ticked off. Sometimes I'll just outright attack them!

 

[Mattzc7]

I agree with agoodfella, you should be able to ransom them or just get payment.
Right now there's nothing you can do, as the AI won't tribute you 'cause one of their dumb spies got himself caught and killed.

 

[agoodfella]

Yeah, that is the crude way of retaliation which is always an option.

But for a build and conquer by culture folks like me, it would be nice to have a sophisticated option for sending a strong message.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

It's up to you to retaliate! I always ask them for tribute right after this just so they know I'm ticked off. Sometimes I'll just outright attack them!

The problem is "diplomacy".
You can attack them, but no matter how many of your poeople they killed with poisoned water or how many buildings they sabotaged you will be regarded as the agressor and retaliation will give you negative diplo-modifiers for atacking somebody's friend and will trigger defensive pacts.
There should be an option to tell them "do something like this again during the next x turns and we will regard it as a declaration of war" after one of their spies has been caught and identified.
In this case the nation who sent the spy will be responsible for the war, get negative diplo-points and have their defensive pacts canceled.

 

[agoodfella]

The problem is "diplomacy".
You can attack them, but no matter how many of your poeople they killed with poisoned water or how many buildings they sabotaged you will be regarded as the agressor and retaliation will give you negative diplo-modifiers for atacking somebody's friend and will trigger defensive pacts.
There should be an option to tell them "do something like this again during the next x turns and we will regard it as a declaration of war" after one of their spies has been caught and identified.
In this case the nation who sent the spy will be responsible for the war, get negative diplo-points and have their defensive pacts canceled.

This is what I'm talking about. I think these are good options (i.e. having to choose from):

- Declaration of war for next offense (serious strong message)
- Appeal to AP / UN for sanctions (trade sanctions for XX number of turns)
- Negative diplomatic points

etc.

anyone else come up with any good alternatives as penalties?

 

[mrt144]

subtract a huge amount of espionage points if they are caught (you uncovered other spies in their network, fed disinfo, assassinated them, etc) . they wont do that again, or at least be able to.

 

[agoodfella]

being able to convert them into a DOUBLE AGENT!!!

Think about that folks. This is what 007 / Jason Bourne / Espionage is all about. The left hand doesn't know what the right is doing at times. Anyone see the movie Syriana?

- Feed them disinformation
- Have them sent back to Capital and automatically get all the information from that city
- Have them sent back to Capital to influence civics / religion
- Have them sent back to Capital to steal treasury
- Have them sent back to Capital to sabotage production or building

 

[mrt144]

couldnt you send spies to get caught to become double agents working for you under the pretense of them being double agents for them?

 

[Infantry#14]

perhaps a penalty for caught foreign spy would be +100 cost for that foreign nation in the next 20 turns since you are alerted of their activities

 

[Sephlock]

If you have a source of Uranium you should be able to kill enemy spies with Polonium.

 

[JFLNYC]

If you have a source of Uranium you should be able to kill enemy spies with Polonium.

Too far-fetched. It would never happen in real life.

 

[Otto von B.]

Too far-fetched. It would never happen in real life.

It did happen in real life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko

 

[DrJambo]

I think it would be good if they got a diplomatic penalty against other AI civs that were currently at 'pleased' and 'friendly' relations with you. Plus, it might be nice if catching a spy would award you some free EPs toward that civ, thereby allowing you to retaliate with espionage, either passively or aggressively.

 

[Maestro_Innit]

It did happen in real life: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Litvinenko

I think you missed the irony in his comment

 

[Feyd Rautha]

I like the idea of adding a pop up screen with some options of what to do about this guy...

A spy has been discovered operating near XX...
*Publicly Execute him (Nationalist sentiment causes a "We Love the XX" Day to occur in this city and 1-5 others)
*Interrogate him (Spy is killed and a 40% chance of gaining name of his government in addition to 50-250 espionage points.)
*Imprision him (Spend 200 Esp points with his nation to gain national allegiance and give his nation a -1 diplomatic relations penalty with all nations that count you as "friend")

A XX country spy has been captured operating near XX...
*Publicly execute him (-1 relations with his nation, +1 relations with his nations enemies, nationalist sentiment results in "We love the XX" days in 3-10 cities)
*Interrogate him (40% chance of gaining 200-500 esp points with his nation, 10% chance of flipping his allegiance and gaining 50-250 esp points and a new spy unit)
*Imprison him (+1 relations worldwide for fair treatment, -1 relations worldwide for nation of record)

Something like that...

 

[Maestro_Innit]

I like all of the abiove ideas ^^^^^

 

[Littlelisa]

Maybe an option for penalties or Other actions, but only if the spy was caught trying to do something within your lands.

If you catch a spy just traveling it shouldnt mean anything, if you catch them failing to blow up an improvement, it should.


My current game, im in the middle of a medium sized continent with 6 other civs around me, im catching 1-2 spies per turn every turn, though im sure most are just trying to get to other civs

 

[Littlelisa]

Some other ideas

If a spy is caught it should also have a % chance to tell you who they belong to, with deception as well.
60% - Interrogation failed, unknown civ.
39% - They reveal who they work for.
1% - They trick you into thinking they work for another civ.

If the enemy spy moved before you caught them, they count as traveling.
If the Civ they belong to is friendly or neutral they are sent on home. (They respawn back in their capital)

If the spy belongs to an annoyed or Hostile civ, they disappear on the road. (They lose the spy)

If the spy didnt move, they are counted as caught in action.
You can then decide to Release them, or Detain them.
If Released you gain 5% of your current espionage points to that civ to show you have info on their spy network. (they also get spy back)
If Detained you gain nothing but they lose 5% their points towards you to show they lost a valuable spy.

If the spy is caught in the act of sabotage, revolt, poison or one of the proper spy actions, there should be real demands made, But only if you know who sent them. (Otherwise they just killed)
Demand they pay you gold, or give you one of their resources for 20 turns or something.
Other actions could be using it to set up diplomacy, you gain +1-2 points with that civ.
Or could have an option for you to gain, or make them lose a good amount of espionage points.

If the spy tricked you (1% chance) and you make demands of wrong civ, it should cause a diplomatic penalty towards you, -2 or such.

 

[civspain]

im glad agoodfella brought this up this is a problem with the whole spy system,i remember when i use to play civ 2 for playstation 1 if your spy was caught there would be an international incident the civ would have the option to declare war on that civ and reputation of the civ would be tarnished with the rest of the civs,hopefully they can do something about this with a patch,because just seeing a spy just been stumbled upon in such and such city is feels incomplete.