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A strategy guide to winning noble

A strategy guide to winning noble

  1. Norzin

    Norzin Chieftain

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    Don't take anything Voice says to heart. If you take a look at a lot of his post he has bad manner with perpetual flaming. I'm considering muting him from my forum comments for this very reason. Seriously, the guy is pretty classless and does more harm than good.
     
  2. obsolete

    obsolete Chieftain

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    Ohhh.. I think I heard of that guy before on this forum. Thanks for the tip Norzin, I'll be on the lookout.

    As for this strategy guide, it KICKS ASS!!!!

    Hope I don't see any more of this stuff, or everyone will be kicking my ass as well. :p
     
  3. yanner39

    yanner39 Chieftain

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    I've gain alot more experience since I posted in this thread and I still like your article and find it useful. I do have a question as to when the Granary should be built.

    You mention that the first build should be a worker if he can work some tiles in the BFC, if not a warrior. Then, it's to build warriors until the capital becomes a size 5 city. Then, the capital pumps out settlers and workers.

    It's obvious that a granary is not built until the city is a size 5. Is this common? I usually try and get a Granary as soon as possible in order to whip my citizens. Now unless you are suggesting that their is no whipping done during this faze, then I understand.

    However, it seems I want to get my settlers out quickly because I don't want to miss out on some land.
     
  4. Calamity

    Calamity Chieftain

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    I liked the guide a lot, but I would also like to ask: when should I build a granary?
     
  5. Continental Op

    Continental Op Chieftain

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    Pretty soon after the last settler is out, I think. If I recall it rightly, the guide suggests that you whip only when you have unhappy citizens, and that normally never happens until the city is >5 in size.
     
  6. cracked

    cracked Wierdo.

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    I would disagree with this to a certain extent.

    I think the best time to whip is when:

    Food is in abundance but hammers sparse.

    When the population reaches a certain level. For the first 50 turns a city is in your possesion on noble this is pop of six.(I choose a sliding scale for this, so in older cities with better tiles worked and more infrastructure I won't use the whip as often if at all as they don't need to).
    The whip is best employed at this moment because the city will grow back more quickly and is often well within the happy cap on noble. (This allows for very aggressive whipping and thus very rapid development of infrastructure).

    When the city is suffering from poor health. (this is when whipping a granary or harbour really makes sense as it allows the city to grow more quickly thus allowing for more whips).

    When I have the means to keep the city from having problems with unhappyness (i.e. Hereditry rule or good resources). Whipping too early in the game when you don't have HR can really kill your economy.

    Using the whip alone to manage happyness is often counter productive, but can be used to knock out temples or theatres very quickly (again, you need to be able to build these items anyway).
     
  7. Psimon

    Psimon Chieftain

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    Argh.

    Well, I'm winning about 2/3rds of the games on Noble, but it's almost always due to starting placement. This guide helped, though!

    I'm playing Augustus, and the problem is, I just can't get out of the gate early enough, that is, with my Praetorians. By the time I'm developed enough to start putting out units at a meaningful pace, everyone has longbows and vassalage.

    Last game I drew Mehmed (AGAIN! four times in a row now) as a neighbor, and I was tempted to quit. I hate this guy. I said, what the hell, and played it, determined to take Mehmed quickly before he could start his usual wonder-and-GP/Golden Ages spamming.

    I was almost (almost!) successful, or at least I gave him hell. I couldn't crack his cities, because by the time I get even a small army together (like 2 Praetorians, 2 axemen, and one archer), they were either walled or on hills. I did make his life miserable, as I raced around with horse archers, mongol-style, destroying everything in sight (even roads), burning and pillaging. I got two of his outlying cities that weren't so well protected. All he had was archers. Hell, I didn't even see one "fighter" . . . .I wonder if the computer cheats that, because I had eyes on his capital at the game start and he had an archer in it, not a fighter.

    I lost mostly because of the inability to take other cities, and him convincing others to war on me. How he had all that gold with nothing but sea resources is a mystery. At the end, he vassalized himself to Stalin, I had three civs out to get me, and it was all over save for the shouting.

    Oh, well. It was fun while it lasted, I had fun driving him, Stalin, and Napoleon crazy with my blitzkreig horse archers.

    I need to find those threads on using the Praetorian rush . . . .
     
  8. AutomatedTeller

    AutomatedTeller Frequent poster

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    Praetorian rush:

    Research IW.
    Build a couple more cities while researching.
    Hook up iron
    build barracks while hooking up iron
    Build a stack of praets (4-6)
    Research other things while the praets go take more cities
    Keep building praets.
     
  9. yanner39

    yanner39 Chieftain

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    cracked, could you explain this? Is it because when you are whipping early, you don't have enough citizens working commerce tiles?
     
  10. Bostock

    Bostock Chieftain

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    yanner, with your first tile or two per city often going to tiles with just food or a food/hammer combo, and with a happiness limit of 4 for non-capital cities (assuming a garrison), it's already hard enough to generate enough commerce to keep your research from slowing to a crawl as it is; lowering it to 3 or even 2 via whip unhappiness makes the problem even worse.

    That said, if I'm really behind on workers (or if I'm in "pop 4 whip a worker" semi-auto zombie mode) I will often still whip workers in this phase, using another worker to stop growth while recovering. But I would only really recommend it if you don't yet have Ye Olde 1.5 workers per city.
     
  11. Continental Op

    Continental Op Chieftain

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    I agree with Bostock, one worker per city is not enough, except on water heavy maps.
     
  12. cracked

    cracked Wierdo.

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    Sorry for the delay in my response.

    What has been said already holds true. There is little point whipping until you can deal with the unhappyness generated, particularly when your cities are small as they will soon grow beyond the happy cap (five on noble for your capital, four for other cities). At which point you end up having to use the whip just to control your population or have idle people and this limits not just commerce from trade but hammers and commerce from tiles as well. you have to pay civic costs for unhappy people just as you have to for contented people. it's counterproductive. Things are a little easier when you're charismatic as whipping a granery then using the overflow to knock out a monument makes sense and will increase happy cap to seven in your capital and six in your other cities.

    On noble, working commerce tiles early isn't such a big deal. it's nice if you can do it, but it's not absoulutely vital on the first 0-75 turns. on higher levels, whipping when your city is working cottages is something of a no-no according to some (it delays the development of cottages to towns) and commerce from cottages is vital. you can get away with it on noble if you're whipping things that will boost commerce and beakers. again, till you run as monarchy it can be a bad idea. (if you get into trouble whipping you can garrison troops there to keep it under control).

    The time when it's most useful is when you've just captured cities. the whip can then be employed to knock out theatres, temples, graneries and courthouses to bring it under control quickly and keep it from being a drag on your economy. this is when i really agressively whip. I often find that as a result, captured cities can sometimes be much better developed in terms of infrastructure than even my first three cities after about 100 turns or so.

    it's a trade off. whip and the temporary reduction in your population and happy cap can harm your economy. if you have the hammers and little food, i question the value of using the whip. if you have loads of food and the means to pacify your population, whipping can keep your civic and maintenance costs very low while quickly developing your nations infrastructure to take advantage of the subsequent larger populations.
     
  13. yanner39

    yanner39 Chieftain

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    Thanks cracked and anothers. Yeah, that is what I thought. I sometimes don't whip simply because I don't want to lose the pop point. I usually gets started on my economy from the get-go and whipping always seemed counter-productive to me (even though I know it gives me useful hammers). But the synergy with HR makes alot of sense since I can control the amount of unhappies. Throw in a granary and whipping is very powerful.

    One thing I rely on more than whipping is chopping. I chop THEN I build my cottage or farm or mine. I figure I get the hammers quicker.
     
  14. cracked

    cracked Wierdo.

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    chopping before you build anything is quite smart. When my cities are small (i.e. aren't working that many tiles) it's worth chopping then not improving the land if you don't need to work that tile. There's a small chance the forest will grow back.
     
  15. Bostock

    Bostock Chieftain

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    The actual physical pop point is often the smallest problem, especially when you whip at small sizes. It's the reduction in potential useful population (unless you have HR) that counts.

    That said, I am again less afraid of the pre-HR whip than Cracked is. If I don't yet have something I need -- especially workers -- then I'll take the temporary hit and just build a worker at size 3 while recovering.

    I also tend to whip the granary itself (unless I can get it out in reasonable time via choppng) and, if desperate for culture, a monument.

    BTW and IMHO, Charismatic tends to justify Stonehenge if you can swing it, since Stonehenge puts monuments everywhere, and as CHA you literally do want monuments everywhere.
     
  16. cracked

    cracked Wierdo.

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    I think it largely depends. Let's say I get gold or furs or the like nearby where I start and get a religion as well. Then the useful pop limit (as you state) is increased anyway. Then whipping quite early isn't an absolute no-no. So it's situation dependant. As a rule, I don't aggressively whip unless I have HR. The exception is favourable resources.

    Truth is, I won't build a granary unless I'm whipping in that city and I whip it first. (sure I said that elswhere).

    I personally don't like whipping workers or settlers on noble (come on, it's not really that necessary). food is not carried over into the next build afaik, Only reason (it's a waste of food basically). Besides, your cities aren't going to grow so quickly that you'll end up working un-improved tiles that early less you have high food yield resources in your fat cross. more than one worker per city isn't entirely necessary.

    I'm much more inclined to build other things apart from stonehenge unless production is really fantastic and nobody is nearby (with close neighbours I'd favour early rush/harassment over stonehenge). I prefer oracle to code of laws slingshot, and monuments built indiviudally aren't that expensive.

    stonehenge = building 4 monuments, so you need at least 4 cities to make it a good ROI on this scale. On some maps you may not get that type of space if you go for stonehenge when you can build it first (within the first 50 turns to gaurantee getting it). I'm normally busy building other items during this period (to ensure I can build those four cities and more). Get the oracle within the first 75 turns and you'll be able to pop borders without expending manufacturing (caste system and artists) quicker than monuments (by about seven turns even with stonehenge), then build the monuments after a granery whip. (really handy if you're spritual and can swop between civics painlessly).
     
  17. Bostock

    Bostock Chieftain

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    On Noble, nothing is really that necessary. Of course, a Deity player would say that about my level too. :lol: But the mythical typical Noble player (mythical, since typical people don't exist) underappreciates both workers and whipping.

    While I'm frankly not certain whether food overflow from worker/settler builds is converted to hammers or converted into extra food for the next turn, but the fact is it's immaterial here, since whatever happens here, it will be happening regardless of whether you go over the top via whip, chop, both, or purely "naturally." So it's not an argument against worker/settler whips, and it's not a waste of food.

    If your cities aren't growing quickly enough to renew working of resources after a whip, you may have settled them in an area without enough food. If they've got lots of food and they still spend a lot of post-whip turns not working high-yield tiles, then yes, the whip was unwise (the old guideline says simply, "Don't whip away resources" -- this handles most such cases). If they don't have enough food but they have enough hammers and they need to be where they are, then once again sure, don't whip.

    Regarding Stonehenge: It definitely has its place in an opening strategy in a lot of starts, just like in a lot of other starts it doesn't. If you almost never build it, you should try building it in a few games where you otherwise wouldn't, before finally swinging back to a happy medium.

    4 monuments isn't many monuments, and too little space for 4 cities post-Stonehenge is a really cramped start... if things are really that bad, then yeah, definitely rush instead. But what I was really getting at is specifically the synergy of CHA and Stonehenge -- besides the usual culture, monuments give CHA a +1 happiness, so you really do want them everywhere, unlike normal civs that might use religion, libraries, etc. for the pop instead after the first few monuments.

    Rushes and harrassment vs. Stonehenge. Once again, I like rushes, rushes are good, when the opening situation is rush-friendly... but it often isn't (but this is partly a Noble/Monarch difference... and here for once I can actually from recent experience, as I spent some fun hours practicing Noble warrior rushes recently). I don't find harassment too effective in most cases, but where it *is* effective, I'd be fine with making do with my starting warrior or maybe one more until Stonehenge is done, if the starting position and my traits favored Stonehenge.

    One thing you seem gloss over in the whole discussion is that Stonehenge produces its own culture, leading to a quick second capital pop, and that it produces GP GPP that can easily give you Theo or CoL, or a settled GP to fund your REX recovery. Don't treat Stonehenge as just a monument in every city, as that's shortchanging it!

    Oracle for CoL (before I can afford the hammers for courthouses, and at the cost of not taking MC and not taking the no-Oracle option) to run Caste System just because it gains me the ability to run artists?! No thanks! If I've skipped Stonehenge (and I do skip it often), I'll send in a missionary or build the monument (an easy whip or chop) by hand, thank you! The handful of saved hammers from running the artist isn't worth running CS that early. CS is not really competitive with slavery until much later on -- until either Guilds or the time when you've set up the food end of a GP farm.

    Also note that it's worth developing the skill of settling in ways that don't require quick pops, and this helps a Stonehenge strategy, since Stonehenge takes its time, as much as it does a "patchwork" strategy where each city gets its own solution.
     
  18. echosfolly

    echosfolly Chieftain

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    very informative guide. I learned quite a bit.
     
  19. cracked

    cracked Wierdo.

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    As you said before Bostock, stonhenge is good for charismatic IF you can swing it. It's pretty good on most map starts IF you can swing it. The operative word here is IF. This is the primary reason I seldom go for that. If manufacturing isn't that strong, then I wouldn't expect to get it anyway, and while the gold is handy, I'd rather have the wonder than the gold.

    I'm not shortchanging stonehenge (the second border pop is nice, and does make it easier to secure territory around your capital). I'd be lying if I said I never bothered with it. Oracle is a more useful wonder (the culture from it is brilliant and you still get gp points as with stonehenge).

    Caste system is useful for popping borders. But that would not be it's primary use if I'm intending to use it. I'll often opt for caste system ahead of slavery if I'm philosophical for example (with oracle in the city that's first GP in 10 turns, second in 20 turns. 3rd in 30. All from one city. That's four extra techs gained quickly irrespective of starting position, and much better than using the whip). Being able to pop borders without infrastucture quickly just means I don't HAVE to build monuments and can still place cities in the best place for the long term. If you're spirtual, then swopping between civics is painless anyway (5 turns as CS then swop back to slavery).

    I take the view that hammers saved are hammers spent on other things. E.G. Pop borders with artist so that you build courthouse/granery first.

    It's not that hard to chop or whip courthouses particulalry if you're organised or playing as the aztecs (sacrificial altar is the ultimate whipping UB), and they reduce not just distance maintenance but number of cities cost, which makes them handy for rexing, as new cities then don't drag as much on existing cities. Even on noble, you'll start to really notice this once you've built more than seven or eight cities. The espionage points can be handy as well.

    Harrasment is effective if space is limited and manufacturing not quite strong enough to build enough troops quickly enough for warrior rushes, precisely because of the mentality of the AI on noble (it will tend to sit garrisoned in its cities not atacking the unit, nor expanding more importantly). even more so if you can hem them in because of their location.

    I fully admit to playing the vast majority (2/3) of my last few games on medium and small with random Island settings. Good production is often a luxury you're not afforded and staring positions often favour the AI heavily. (to the point where I may only build one wonder in the first 100 turns, nor more than 5 by the 250th turn). With outposts built on surrounding islands to secure resources, COL and courthouse are a strong advantage that can help secure a tech lead.

    Again, it's all situational. Not just the map but your chosen civ as well. Soemtimes it's better to forgo all of these and beeline pottery straight for the cottages then go straight for literacy. Sometimes it's better to use oracle for metal casting (really strong with financial civs or industrial). Sometimes ToA is better. With expansive civs, it's got to be Great lighthouse first (then use the merchant to bulb alphabet or metal casting).

    What I would say is that in 95% of my starting positions, I can get oracle out within the first 75-85 turns on noble regardless of traits or available resources. with stonehenge, unles I start building it within the first 25 turns or get stone early, I wouldn't expect to finish it. If I do this on some maps, I'd be hemmed in way too quickly to make it count.
     
  20. DanaLea

    DanaLea Chieftain Supporter

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    So whats Ctrl+R?
     

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