A Suggestion: Better Chinese Map

[soul-breathing]

For a long time, I think about how to make the map of china area both more exactly and balanced. Some days before, some fans on Chinese Civ4 Forum talked about this topic(http://tieba.baidu.com/p/4510274970). At last we decide a possible plan and now I put it here.

In this plan, we don't add resources or land plots in Chinese mainland as far as possible. We just change the positions of some resources and land plots. Even if there are something added, it not breaks the balance as far as possible. Here below is the whole plan.

Northern China:

Spoiler :

#Turn the fish plot to grassland, enlarge the land of North China, to distinguish Shanxi,Hebei and Beijing-Tianjin region better.
#Move the original fish to 1 plot east.
#Move Beijing to 1 plot east. Actually it's more fit the real position of Beijing, Neither along the Yellow River nor the coast.
#Move coal on NE of Beijing to Shanxi.
#Move Aluminum of Hubei to Shanxi, it's the most important aluminum origin in China(No bad effect to game before Modern Era).
#Turn 3 plot in Shanxi from grassland to hill.
#Remove silk and incense along Yellow River.
#Move horse 1 plot north.
#Add iron at 1 plot NW of Beijing(Move from Shaaxi).
#Almost all plots north and West of Beijing turn to hills(Yanshan Mountains and Taihang Mountains).
#Original coal plot NW of Beijing, along Yellow River, turn to grassland/plain. City here is Hohhot(Yunzhong before Renaissance, Guisui after Renaissance, Hohhot after Modern).
#Turn the plot west of Hohhot to desert/flood plain（Hetao Plain）.
#Move the upstream of Heilongjiang River 1 plot north, more fit with the real position.
#Turn 1 north of iron from hill to desert.
#For food decrease in North China, turn wheat plot south of Beijing from plain to grassland, the added plot east of Beijing is grassland.
#Move silk in Shandong to some place south(Actually silk produced in South China).
#Add gold in Shandong, it's the most important gold origin in China(move from Yunnan).

Spoiler :

Eastern China:

Spoiler :

#Add island on fish plot east of Shanghai(Zhoushan Islands, the largest in China).
#Remove stone in Jiangxi, turn to copper, it's the most important copper origin in China.
#Move dye to Shanghai plot.
#Turn origin dye plot to hill/grassland, represent Taishan-Yimeng Mountains.
#Change two plot(grassland and coast) in Shandong, make it more close to the real situation.
#Add stone on this plot, move from Jiangxi.
#Turn sugar in Fujian to tea.
#Turn grassland 1 plot south of rice to hill/plain(Yellow mountain).
#Generally, food in SE of China decreases and production increases.

Spoiler :

Southern China:

Spoiler :

#Add banana on Hainan, move form 1 plot north of Guangzhou.
#Remove copper in Guangxi(move to Yunnan).
#Turn origin banana plot to hill/grassland/forest(Nanling Mountains).
#Add island on 1 plot south of Guangzhou(Hong Kong island).
#Move clam 1 plot east to Hong Kong to 1NE, for weaken Macau and strengthen Guangzhou and Taiwan.
#Add Penghu islands on clam plot.
#Add banana on south of Taiwan island, add fish on SE of Taipei, appear after 1900AD.(just for reality, in fact it's no effect to Chinese UHV)

Spoiler :

Southwestern China:

Spoiler :

#Add Minjiang River(Sichuan, at ancient time it's considered as the headstream of Yangtze River, and its volume larger than the Yellow River). It will make Chengdu and Chongqing more fit in with their true plot.
#1 plot more for the headstream of Yangtze River, 1 plot less for the Lancang-Mekong River, 1 plot less for Zhujiang River.
#Turn 2 plots in the west of Sichuan to hill/ice, for balance of this area.
#Move the coal to Guizhou, from south of Xi'an.
#Turn the plot of Kunming from peak to hill/grassland.
#Add marble on the plot of Dali, covered with rainforest, prevent from being used too early(in Chinese, marble is called Dali Stone because it was found here).
#Add tea in Yunnan, original this plot is gold(ancient Tea-Horse road).
#Copper in Yunnan, move from Guangxi. Yunnan is the most important tin origin in China, but there is not tin this game, replace by copper.
#Rice in Burma replace with banana, covered with rainforest, prevent city in Yunnan from too much population.
#Tea in Guangxi replaced with sugar.
#Some other changes reflected in this map.

Spoiler :

Tibetan:

Spoiler :

#Most hill/desert here turn to hill/ice(in fact most of them could be turn to grassland/ice, but not fit with the altitude).
#Add the Qinghai Lake(the largest lake in China, salt water).
#Turn Qaidam Basin to grassland/desert, add oil and river.
#The Grand Bend of the Yarlung Zangbo River move 1 plot west, because of the change of headstream of the Yangtze River.
#Add cow(represent yaks) in west Tibet, Lhasa can't use it.
#The incense move to 1 plot NE, because incense near Beijing is removed. Now this incense is at the boundary of Tibet and China mainland.
#The headstream of the Yellow River move to south.

Spoiler :

Shaanxi-Gansu:

Spoiler :

#Turn the plot of Xi'an to grassland/plain/flood plain, disappear to grassland/plain after 800ad(the fall of Tang Dynasty).
#Plots in North part of Shaanxi turn to hill/plain and hill/desert(Loess Plateau).
#Iron and coal near Xi'an move to the other place.
#The plot of Tianshui(1NE from Xi'an) turns from peak to hill/plain.
#The plot of Wuwei(2NE from Xi'an) turns from grassland/desert to hill/desert.
#Move oil to Qaidam Basin.

Spoiler :

Xinjiang:

Spoiler :

#Move cotton from east to west, along Tarim River.
#Add oil in Karamay(an important oil field in Xinjiang), this plot turns from desert to plain.
#The plot of Altay turns to oasis.
#Two plots of Tianshan Mountain turns to hill/plain, and add sheep here.

Spoiler :

Northeastern China:

Spoiler :

#Add the Ussuri River, it's the boundary river of China PR and Russia.
#Move the coal to 2E1S, this plot turns from marsh to grassland/forest.
#Add Liaohe River in Liaoning.

Spoiler :

Still I'm making a new CNM of China, the CNM of China now has some cities not correct, maybe I'll put it here some days later.

 

[citis]

Yaks should be accessible from Lhasa, else human player won't settle the historical city.

 

[Leoreth]

Oh it's great that you bring this up, I have been thinking about China a lot lately. Generally I trust your input on this, and I like that your changes are very conservative (i.e. mostly moving resources around instead of adding new ones and so on). Also great that you intend to work on the CNM, which really needs help right now. I'd especially love if you could make a map with the ancient city names and supply me with their names through the eras. China is probably the best place in the world where the game really could shine with changing names based on time but the current CNM doesn't really make use of that.

You know from the other thread that I'm currently focused on something else so don't get me wrong when I don't pick up on this immediately. I'm much better at evaluating terrain changes when I can take the time to test them out myself in the game itself. It looks like I'm behind most of what is being changed here, but China especially is tricky because you have to place resources in such a way that supercities get a little less super.

Some general feedback I can make just from the descriptions alone:
- agreed that Tibet doesn't need resources that cannot be reached from Lhasa, which should be the only viable city position here.
- I get what you're trying to do with the Shandong peninsula but it looks weird like this, not sure if it can be done better though
- usually resources are not placed on island tiles because it looks weird combined with the fishing nets improvement
- I think animal husbandry in Tibet is more about the wool than about meat, so shouldn't sheep be more appropriate?

All of those are minor points that could be easily included into your suggestions.

A more radical question though, what do you think about expanding the overall size of China? Compared to other regions of Asia, especially the newly enlarged India, it feels kind of smallish. Especially things like putting three cities on the Yellow River is something that should actually be possible. Not saying this is actually doable but expanding it one row to the east and one row to the south might be possible.

Similarly, what about independents or barbarians (Yue peoples) in Southern China to better represent the gradual expansion of Imperial China into the south?

 

[soul-breathing]

- agreed that Tibet doesn't need resources that cannot be reached from Lhasa, which should be the only viable city position here.
- Actually I add this cow only for representing yaks. Tibet has only a few population, 3.17 million with 1,200,000 km^2. So in my opinion there shouldn't be too many food resource in Lhasa's radius. Now Lhasa can keep 7-8 city ranks at most and I think it's enough, that's why I put cow(yaks) out of Lhasa's radius.

- I get what you're trying to do with the Shandong peninsula but it looks weird like this, not sure if it can be done better though
- For this area is too small to change, that's the only plan I can get to make Shandong Peninsula displayed. I notice it maybe effects Korea Peninsula a little, but I can't get a better plan.

- usually resources are not placed on island tiles because it looks weird combined with the fishing nets improvement
- Honestly I don't feel it strange with fishing nets on island, but nevermind, this 2 islands, Zhoushan and Penghu aren't so important. We can find a new way to improve production of Shanghai and Taiwan.

- I think animal husbandry in Tibet is more about the wool than about meat, so shouldn't sheep be more appropriate?
- Refer to the first question about Tibet, just represent yaks in Tibet. You can analogy it with sheeps in Andes, Peru, represents alpaca.

Ancient Chinese CNM, it needs time. Maybe I would bring up a new CNM of China in this weekend, but ancient one, maybe I need to discuss it with our other Chinese friends.

About enlarging the Chinese map and Yue People in South China, also we need to discuss. I will reply you it as soon as possible. You see I can only reply on cfc in this time every work day, at weekends I have more time. Please excuse it...

 

[Leoreth]

No worries, we can take our time.

Please convey my thanks to all Chinese players who have contributed here

 

[youtien]

Including me. I like the changes, but gold in Shandong may be too powerful in early game. And marble on Dali, I would simply settle on it in early game to get all those pantheon wonders.

 

[Leoreth]

Good point, it's better to deny marble to China even if it is geographically accurate. The gold could maybe spawn later?

 

[soul-breathing]

Maybe the marble can covered with jungle, and the jungle disappear in some year?

Gold could spawn later, I agree.

 

[Leoreth]

The jungle solution could also work, yeah.

 

[windman]

wow the modification is comprehensive and quite reasonable generally. Can't wait to play the new map as China

 

[BenZL43]

Back then when I still have time to modify CNM, I tried to change China's city name based on era and synchronize it with iOSI's Dynamic Civ Name.

Here's some consideration for you:

- It looks very messy and counterproductive because some Chinese city like Beijing change their names a lot and it's hard to be consistent on picking the names.
- Since I tied some name to techs, different tech route research make differences in the name order.
- Some dynasty only last for few turns in-game, but the name change happened there.
- Some city names also doesn't make sense if you skip one of the name because it evolves with time, but some are alright to.

As for now, I can only think of Guangzhou, which come from Panyu (there's only 1 change) yet still looks elegant.
Beijing's city name was a nightmare, and it's nowhere near Zhongdu -> Beijing as in-game

 

[Force44]

Why should the yaks in Tibet be workable for Lhasa?

So long as it is in the third ring of Lhasa and isn't buildable it gives some additional health and a tradeable resource when the third ring is reached by Lhasa's culture.

If cities in the first ring around Lhasa should not be viable options just link an UHV condition to the spot (like Babylon)

 

[youtien]

Dali could be jungle -> indy city found in 937 (Dali state).

 

[citis]

Why should the yaks in Tibet be workable for Lhasa?

So long as it is in the third ring of Lhasa and isn't buildable it gives some additional health and a tradeable resource when the third ring is reached by Lhasa's culture.

If cities in the first ring around Lhasa should not be viable options just link an UHV condition to the spot (like Babylon)

Generally, it is a good idea to make important cities good settling spots. For example if the player doesn't go for the UHV, then they will never settler Lhasa.

 

[Leoreth]

Back then when I still have time to modify CNM, I tried to change China's city name based on era and synchronize it with iOSI's Dynamic Civ Name.

Here's some consideration for you:

- It looks very messy and counterproductive because some Chinese city like Beijing change their names a lot and it's hard to be consistent on picking the names.
- Since I tied some name to techs, different tech route research make differences in the name order.
- Some dynasty only last for few turns in-game, but the name change happened there.
- Some city names also doesn't make sense if you skip one of the name because it evolves with time, but some are alright to.

As for now, I can only think of Guangzhou, which come from Panyu (there's only 1 change) yet still looks elegant.
Beijing's city name was a nightmare, and it's nowhere near Zhongdu -> Beijing as in-game

I don't think necessarily all names need to be represented, that would be excessive and probably confusing the owning player. But some cities do not change name at all. Selecting 3-4 names and changing them based on era is the best compromise.

Why should the yaks in Tibet be workable for Lhasa?

So long as it is in the third ring of Lhasa and isn't buildable it gives some additional health and a tradeable resource when the third ring is reached by Lhasa's culture.

If cities in the first ring around Lhasa should not be viable options just link an UHV condition to the spot (like Babylon)

But it's awkward to deliberately create a superior position and then force the player not to use it.

 

[soul-breathing]

@BenZL43
It's hard to summarizes a rule to discribe how Chinese cities' name changed with era, civic policies and so on. You can only do its CNM from history data. I choose Hohhot in Inner Mongolia as an example. In Han Dynasty, this city was named Yunzhong(云中 in Qing Dynasty, this city was named Guisui(归绥 Now this city called Hohhot(呼和浩&#29305. So the name change in game is "Yunzhong before Renaissance, Guisui after Renaissance, Hohhot after Modern".

This is a simple one, for some famous cities such as Beijing, Nanjing, the situation is more complex.

@youtien
Maybe it's a good advice, but Kunming, 1E to Dali, is more important than Dali in both history and now, and independent Dali is in Chengdu's radius, which will makes it hard to appear.

 

[wololo]

Shanghai definitely shouldn't be named so in the ancient era, as it was mostly under water back then. A better city to use would be Suzhou, which would be called Wu in ancient era, Kuaiji in classical and Suzhou later.
Beijing should be Jicheng in the ancient era.

 

[Qiu]

Shanghai definitely shouldn't be named so in the ancient era, as it was mostly under water back then. A better city to use would be Suzhou, which would be called Wu in ancient era, Kuaiji in classical and Suzhou later.
Beijing should be Jicheng in the ancient era.

Kuaiji was another city (nowadays Shaoxin). Suzhou's ancient name was always Wu, meanwhile Gusu in local language (RFCCW name). However, changing its name to Shanghai could be weird, since they are different cities. Enlarge the map eastward could solve this problem.

 

[wololo]

Kuaiji was another city (nowadays Shaoxin). Suzhou's ancient name was always Wu, meanwhile Gusu in local language (RFCCA name). However, changing its name to Shanghai could be weird, since they are different cities. Enlarge the map eastward could solve this problem.

Perhaps there should be an appearing grassland tile in the Yangtze delta to represent the coastline expanding, the coastline has expanded quite a bit in this area since ancient times: https://i.imgur.com/z1usoLW.jpg

Then Shanghai could be founded on this tile in the medieval era or later.

Might be a bit extreme, but it could be neat if implemented well.

 

[BenZL43]

This is a simple one, for some famous cities such as Beijing, Nanjing, the situation is more complex.

Agreed on Hohhot. But this Beijing and the likes are the real problem. It's unlikely that in-game China, player or AI, will settle Hohhot. Maybe we could start by deciding the names for cities that 100% always spawn in-game, like Xi'an and Beijing.

On Beijing, should Zhongdu be renamed? If so, should the city called Jicheng (Ji, 薊&#22478, Yanjing (Independent, 燕&#20140 or even Fanyang (Han, 范&#38451? I forgot what time the independent city spawn, but Zhongdu is a name from 12th century Later Jin Dinasty. After that, when the independent city is conquered, what should it's called as then? haha

If Suzhou and Shanghai is a different city, we shouldn't "evolve" Suzhou into Shanghai - as Carthago doesn't "evolve" to Tunis. This is just to maintain consistency. Also, in my opinion adding a new tile in medieval era won't be effective because we'd need a city on that region early. I think players are less likely to raze their Suzhou, Hangzhou, or any city there just so they can found Shanghai in a proper place.