A test of Democracy in the US

[anarres]

Bozo, you are acting with the kee-jerk reaction the anti-commies did in the 50's.

Just because someone is a muslim does not make them anti-USA, just as being a communist in the 50's didn't make you one.

Or maybe this is too hard for you to understand? I would have thought not, but you seem to be falling for it...

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Hmm..are you implying that the enfeeble masses of the Middle East is closely like the businessmen of the Royal families and other Middle Eastern elites are somewhat conniving to kill us?I highly think not.

First, are you aware that one time we had Osama targeted for assasination, but it was called off because members of the UAE royal family were with him, and would have been killed? Heres a link to the testimony of George Tenet, the then CIA director, when he appeared before the 9/11 Commission. Go to page 27.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing8/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-03-24.pdf

Isn't it true that the media have a habit of only showing certain aspect(the poor) of the Middle Eastern world and less of the international elites of that given region?

That may or may not be true, but the alternative is to not give any credence to news reports, and instead formulate opinions based on ones hopes and desires, rather than actual events.

 

[anarres]

If you want evidence of what people in the ME feel, regardless of whether theyre businessmen or not, I suggest that you read the news.

And by this I'm guessing that you think muslim=ME and ME="USA haters"?

Man you need to get a grip! Most people in the ME just want to get on with their lives like every other person on the planet, and a vocal minority are being whipped in to anti-western hatred by their politcal/religous leaders.

If you think this means every muslim hates you then you are living in fear and hate, and it's bloody irrational too.

3000 people were murdered by OBL and up to 50 or so acomplices. In retaliation the USA has invaded 2 countries, killed thousands of soldiers, thousands of civilians, and has sparked a civil war causing the death of up to 100,000 civilians.

And you have the down right audacity to say you now need to defend yourself from muslim allies?

Don't you ever feel your country is a little like the thick highschool bully? He gets a black eye one day from a kid he used to kick around, and in revenge sets upon everyone of that kid's classmates - even the ones that hated him??

Seriously, open your eyes to this Bozo.

 

[Danghis Khan]

Disagree. Saddam has openly supported terrorists for years. Removing him was just an operation in the overall war against terrorism. Punishing an ally nation's business just because they are Arab or Muslim is racism and xenophobism. Disgusting.

So all that false intelligence that served as a justification for invasion was actually true? And it doesn't matter that while none of the 9/11 hijackers had any connection to Iraq, but that some of the hijackers did have a connection to the UAE, yet the US will invade the former and trade with the latter. While I don't agree with the knee jerk reaction of the public and politicians towards the sale, I totally understand it. Bozo's right a lot of Americans feel threatened (rightly or wrongly) by Middle Eastern ownership of ports of entry. There is a limit to what businesses you should allow to be sold to foreign nations (ironically Canada has the highest rate of foreign ownership anywhere), vital strategic interests would probably fall under that category. Remember, the US is the country that is claiming it is at war, a reaction like this should hardly be a surprise.

 

[CartesianFart]

First, are you aware that one time we had Osama targeted for assasination, but it was called off because members of the UAE royal family were with him, and would have been killed? Heres a link to the testimony of George Tenet, the then CIA director, when he appeared before the 9/11 Commission. Go to page 27.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing8/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-03-24.pdf

I am aware of the public perception problem of the administration and the elites in the middle east on regarding the Osama Bin Laden problem.Carlyle group comes to my mind.

That may or may not be true, but the alternative is to not give any credence to news reports, and instead formulate opinions based on ones hopes and desires, rather than actual events.

Then if indeed that it is true,then how can we(common people of the Real grassroot level)know if anything can be true?

We,the worker bees of the world,have to rely on the media for informations on public and foreign policies which still give me the impression that we are still in the dark and ignorant of what is really going behind the international scene.I find this one of the most troublesome thought in my lifetime,and wonder how long have this been going on.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Bozo, you are acting with the kee-jerk reaction the anti-commies did in the 50's.

Not at all, Ive been observing developments between the West and the Muslim world and come to the inescapable conclusion that we're in a period right now in world affairs where the West and Islam are once again in conflict, and that it seems to be escalating. Theres nothing really new here, its an old story that goes back centuries.

Just because someone is a muslim does not make them anti-USA, just as being a communist in the 50's didn't make you one.

I agree. Many innocent people had their lives ruined in a senseless witchhunt ironically reminiscent of what was happening in Stalins USSR. However, having said that, taking into consideration the geopolitical situation in the 1950's, keeping an eye on the domestic Communist Party wasnt a crazy idea. We were involved at the time in something called the Cold War.

Or maybe this is too hard for you to understand? I would have thought not, but you seem to be falling for it...

Not everybody who disagrees with you on certain issues is dumb, anarres. Its possible for people to have different opinions about things, and not be mentally deficient in some way. Its hard to hold the high ground and accuse others of being intolerant, when one is himself being intolerant.

 

[betazed]

@Bozo: As you yourself say, you are reacting from the gut. But as you also (presumably) believe in the "centrality of logic" you must realize that a cool rational analysis of the situations is more probable in giving you a sounder pov. So lets see this rationally once more.

Here are two facts (now these are indisputable facts) :-

(a) Dubai is a city state modelled on the lines of singapore. To that extent it is the closest we have to western model in the middle east
(b) Dubai is fast diversifying away from oil-wealth. Right now only 20% of its GDP comes from oil. The rest is trade + investments + tourism (mostly)

Now as you claim we are not sure of how people in Dubai feel about America. Now I am not sure too. So I am not going to claim that they like America. But I am going to claim they like Dubai. And they see that there is a future for Dubai (unlike most other ME nations). A future in which they are integrated to the world economy. Now would you say that if you were a Dubai citizen irrespective of your feelings for America you will actually hurt Dubai's chances to spite America? if any company from Dubai supports terrorists and that can be proven then there goes their chances of integrating with the rest of the world.

Now, am I ruling out the remote possibility that some company of Dubai may actually help terrorists? No. It is possible. But no more possible than say a Bristish company or a Japanese company. Because all of them have teh same amount to lose. Just out of pure self-interest they will on the average behave exactly the same way. Love/hate for America has nothing to do with it. Hence, there is no additional risk in a Dubai firm financing US port operations.

But even apart from all that, since you believe (and I too believe to some extent) that we are in a low level conflict with Islam (which may spin out of control) don't you think we need as many friends on our side as we can get? Dubai is a perfect example of a friend. They may not be as cosy to US as say Britain - they may not be the ideal friend you would want - but they are the closest you got in the ME. They are capitalistic, they are progressing, diversifying from oil. If we cannot make them firends, - nay if we actually alienate them - then there truly is no chance of avoiding the civilizational conflict that you talk about and resort to guns in teh final analysis. Must we solve every problem with guns?

Lastly, you still have not mentioned why your gut tells you that this Dubai deal is dangerous and Citibank is not already a threat to the US financial system?

 

[anarres]

I'm being totally honest, I gave you more credit than jumping on the "every muslim's a terrorist" bandwagon that your country has setting in motion.

And TBH, I think you ARE dumb if you think that, and if you did that in the 50's for commies.

The world is more complex than mainstream US media would have you believe.

 

[CartesianFart]

@Bozo: As you yourself say, you are reacting from the gut. But as you also (presumably) believe in the "centrality of logic" you must realize that a cool rational analysis of the situations is more probable in giving you a sounder pov. So lets see this rationally once more.

Here are two facts (now these are indisputable facts) :-

(a) Dubai is a city state modelled on the lines of singapore. To that extent it is the closest we have to western model in the middle east
(b) Dubai is fast diversifying away from oil-wealth. Right now only 20% of its GDP comes from oil. The rest is trade + investments + tourism (mostly)

Now as you claim we are not sure of how people in Dubai feel about America. Now I am not sure too. So I am not going to claim that they like America. But I am going to claim they like Dubai. And they see that there is a future for Dubai (unlike most other ME nations). A future in which they are integrated to the world economy. Now would you say that if you were a Dubai citizen irrespective of your feelings for America you will actually hurt Dubai's chances to spite America? if any company from Dubai supports terrorists and that can be proven then there goes their chances of integrating with the rest of the world.

Now, am I ruling out the remote possibility that some company of Dubai may actually help terrorists? No. It is possible. But no more possible than say a Bristish company or a Japanese company. Because all of them have teh same amount to lose. Just out of pure self-interest they will on the average behave exactly the same way. Love/hate for America has nothing to do with it. Hence, there is no additional risk in a Dubai firm financing US port operations.

But even apart from all that, since you believe (and I too believe to some extent) that we are in a low level conflict with Islam (which may spin out of control) don't you think we need as many friends on our side as we can get? Dubai is a perfect example of a friend. They may not be as cosy to US as say Britain - they may not be the ideal friend you would want - but they are the closest you got in the ME. They are capitalistic, they are progressing, diversifying from oil. If we cannot make them firends, - nay if we actually alienate them - then there truly is no chance of avoiding the civilizational conflict that you talk about and resort to guns in teh final anaylysis. Must we solve every problem with guns?

Lastly, you still have not mentioned why your gut tells you that this Dubai deal is dangerous and Citibank is not already a threat to the US financial system?

I find making Dubai as a potential New York City of the Middle East as a great beacon of democracy and free-trade.

 

[Cuivienen]

*snort*

Democracy? In Dubai?

*giggle*

Well, if you want to see it that way.

 

[CartesianFart]

*snort*

Democracy? In Dubai?

*giggle*

Well, if you want to see it that way.

Sounds like a pessimist.Don't quit you day job or study international politics,you will have surely get wounded ambition.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

And by this I'm guessing that you think muslim=ME and ME="USA haters"?

Of course not. People are people, they just want to make money, pay their bills, raise their kids, and generally avoid trouble.

Man you need to get a grip! Most people in the ME just want to get on with their lives like every other person on the planet, and a vocal minority are being whipped in to anti-western hatred by their politcal/religous leaders.

As Ive said many times in similar threads, extremists drive the oxcart, they always have. While moderates everywhere are busy with their famlies and paying their bills, the extremists plot, and plan, and carry out attacks, and eventually the peaceful moderates on all sides are dragged into conflict. Thats what extremists do because times of crisis are when they thrive and can hope to impose their will upon the people. Right there, thats all of human history in a nutshell for you. Nothing has changed, and its unlikely to ever change.

3000 people were murdered by OBL and up to 50 or so acomplices. In retaliation the USA has invaded 2 countries, killed thousands of soldiers, thousands of civilians, and has sparked a civil war causing the death of up to 100,000 civilians.

Anarres, read what you wrote in the above quote. Doesnt that sound like a war to you? I agree, its a terrible situation, but what are we going to do, pretend its not happening? More people will die if we do that.

And you have the down right audacity to say you now need to defend yourself from muslim allies?

We have no real allies in the ME, except for Israel. What we have in the Muslim ME are not allies.They are a bunch of undemocratic kings and dictators who we keep in power against the will of their own people. Thats one of the legitimate reasons that the people have to hate us.

Don't you ever feel your country is a little like the thick highschool bully? He gets a black eye one day from a kid he used to kick around, and in revenge sets upon everyone of that kid's classmates - even the ones that hated him??

I do indeed. Thats how wars start.

 

[AngryPants]

Its all moot, apparently the Dubai company apparently pulled their bid, according to various sources.

 

[Adebisi]

How stupid and prejudiced to block that deal!

Bush showed some good judgement on this one...

 

[CartesianFart]

It is wise for any wealthy nations to invest into and help the middle eastern countries to diversify in other avenues of businesses instead of just oil.


It is sad that a rational thinking mind like Bozo Erectus is falling ill of xenophobia and the lack of understanding of what is statecraft really is.

 

[anarres]

Of course not. People are people, they just want to make money, pay their bills, raise their kids, and generally avoid trouble.


As Ive said many times in similar threads, extremists drive the oxcart, they always have. While moderates everywhere are busy with their famlies and paying their bills, the extremists plot, and plan, and carry out attacks, and eventually the peaceful moderates on all sides are dragged into conflict. Thats what extremists do because times of crisis are when they thrive and can hope to impose their will upon the people. Right there, thats all of human history in a nutshell for you. Nothing has changed, and its unlikely to ever change.

See, you start off by agreeing that moderates are being pulled along by leaders here (note: not leaders in Dubai, but several other ME states).

Anarres, read what you wrote in the above quote. Doesnt that sound like a war to you? I agree, its a terrible situation, but what are we going to do, pretend its not happening? More people will die if we do that.

And from that we get "WAR!"??? I mean WTH? You seem to be refusing to be a moderate who isn't dragged along in to hatred, and yet at the same time recognise it's happening to you????

What "war" is this, apart from one guy and his mates attacking the USA and the USA going nuts over it causing a lot more harm? The only "war" that can or will happen is when the USA decides to invade yet another ME country (this time Iran no doubt).

Do you still want to be the moderate who is pulled in to this or do you want to be the moderate who keeps his head and stands up for what is right?

We have no real allies in the ME, except for Israel. What we have in the Muslim ME are not allies.They are a bunch of undemocratic kings and dictators who we keep in power against the will of their own people. Thats one of the legitimate reasons that the people have to hate us.

I do indeed. Thats how wars start.

Again, you recognise the problem but then want to exasperate it and play in to the terrorists hands by reacting to all muslims as though they were terrorists?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

@Bozo: As you yourself say, you are reacting from the gut. But as you also (presumably) believe in the "centrality of logic" you must realize that a cool rational analysis of the situations is more probable in giving you a sounder pov. So lets see this rationally once more.

Here are two facts (now these are indisputable facts) :-

(a) Dubai is a city state modelled on the lines of singapore. To that extent it is the closest we have to western model in the middle east
(b) Dubai is fast diversifying away from oil-wealth. Right now only 20% of its GDP comes from oil. The rest is trade + investments + tourism (mostly)

Now as you claim we are not sure of how people in Dubai feel about America. Now I am not sure too. So I am not going to claim that they like America. But I am going to claim they like Dubai. And they see that there is a future for Dubai (unlike most other ME nations). A future in which they are integrated to the world economy. Now would you say that if you were a Dubai citizen irrespective of your feelings for America you will actually hurt Dubai's chances to spite America? if any company from Dubai supports terrorists and that can be proven then there goes their chances of integrating with the rest of the world.

Now, am I ruling out the remote possibility that some company of Dubai may actually help terrorists? No. It is possible. But no more possible than say a Bristish company or a Japanese company. Because all of them have teh same amount to lose. Just out of pure self-interest they will on the average behave exactly the same way. Love/hate for America has nothing to do with it. Hence, there is no additional risk in a Dubai firm financing US port operations.

Et tu Brutus? Everybody seems to be under the impression that I picture Arabs as demons, hungry to drink our blood and sup on our brains. That I gasp and dive for cover when a Muslim woman in a headscarf drives by in an SUV. The Dubai entity is just a company like any other, and its directors are just businessmen. I dont for one moment believe that the company is out to get us. But I do believe this: if a Middle East based terrorist organization wanted to smuggle WMD or operatives in the US, infiltrating a Middle East based company like DP World and getting access to its shipping containers would be a smart thing to do. Particularly since as we've all known for some time, the vast majority of the containers entering the country arent inspected. Could Al Qaeda infiltrate a German firm, or a UK based firm? Definitely. But obviously it would be alot easier for them to infilitrate an Arab owned and operated company. The last thing the directors of the company would want is to be involved in any way in an attack, on anybody, but I believe theres an elevated risk associated with a ME based company, for the reasons I cited above.

But even apart from all that, since you believe (and I too believe to some extent) that we are in a low level conflict with Islam (which may spin out of control) don't you think we need as many friends on our side as we can get? Dubai is a perfect example of a friend. They may not be as cosy to US as say Britain - they may not be the ideal friend you would want - but they are the closest you got in the ME. They are capitalistic, they are progressing, diversifying from oil. If we cannot make them firends, - nay if we actually alienate them - then there truly is no chance of avoiding the civilizational conflict that you talk about and resort to guns in teh final analysis. Must we solve every problem with guns?

Well, lets look at it this way. To what level would a US government owned company be allowed to operate in security sensitve areas in Dubai? Freely? Without restrictions? I doubt it very much. Does this mean the government of Dubai isnt much friendlier to us, when compared to most of their neighbors? Not at all.

Lastly, you still have not mentioned why your gut tells you that this Dubai deal is dangerous and Citibank is not already a threat to the US financial system?

I think Ive spelled it out above, but Ive been typing so long, I forgot already what I wrote all the way up there. Damn you pot! (shakes fist angrily at the marijuana gods)

 

[Little Raven]

But I do believe this: if a Middle East based terrorist organization wanted to smuggle WMD or operatives in the US, infiltrating a Middle East based company like DP World and getting access to its shipping containers would be a smart thing to do. Particularly since as we've all known for some time, the vast majority of the containers entering the country arent inspected. Could Al Qaeda infiltrate a German firm, or a UK based firm? Definitely. But obviously it would be alot easier for them to infilitrate an Arab owned and operated company. The last thing the directors of the company would want is to be involved in any way in an attack, on anybody, but I believe theres an elevated risk associated with a ME based company, for the reasons I cited above.

But Bozo, DP World already has all relevant information on security regarding shipping containers, as you would know if you bothered to do some research. In fact, the entire United Arab Emirates has our security information on shipping containers.

Why? Because the UAE is a part of America’s Container Security Initiative. (CSI)

CSI was launched in 2002 by the U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection. It allows the US and its allies to screen high risk cargos at each other ports. In other words, we tell the UAE which containers we're going to be searching, and they tell us which ones they're going to be searching, so that we can cover more ground.

So having DP World run the ports doesn't change our security situation at all. If Al Qaeda has infiltrated DP World or the UAE, then they already have all the information they need to smuggle stuff into this country.

 

[Ayatollah So]

In other words, we tell the UAE which containers we're going to be searching, and they tell us which ones they're going to be searching, so that we can cover more ground.

I hope that each country reserves the right to search a few random containers not mentioned on the list. Trust, but verify.

 

[Little Raven]

Little Raven for President! Betazed for Veep! Or vice versa.

Whoa! My first presidential endorsement! I'm so proud.

Now the tough question; do I shoot for the top tog position, or step aside and let Betazed hog the spotlight?

One the one hand, if I'm President, I get to have my knob polished in the Oval Office.



Hmm..well, nevermind that then.

On the other hand, if I'm Vice President, then I have to live in a super-secret fortified bunker, but on the flipside I get to cuss out stupid Congressmen that annoy me, and if I get tired shooting at flightless birds, I can always start shooting at something a few steps down the evolutionary ladder, like lawyers.

Not really seeing much of a downside, here.

Right, President Betazed it is!