A test of Democracy in the US

[Little Raven]

I hope that each country reserves the right to search a few random containers not mentioned on the list. Trust, but verify.

It's voluntary measure. We're under no compulsion to tell them everything that we're going to be searching, so there's no need to reserve any rights. But the UAE has been a staunch ally to us in the Middle East, and they have no reason to want to see terrorists take us down.

As I pointed out earlier, less than 5% of containers coming into the country are screened in any way whatsoever. When security resources are that sparse, you have to make the absolute most of them. And the only way we can do that is cooperation.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You seem to be refusing to be a moderate who isn't dragged along in to hatred, and yet at the same time recognise it's happening to you????

Do you still want to be the moderate who is pulled in to this or do you want to be the moderate who keeps his head and stands up for what is right?

Moderate, peace loving people who are dragged into war by extremists leaders, are still in a war, whether they want to be or not. Pretending they arent doesnt change any thing. There were plenty of moderates in the trenches in 1914.

Again, you recognise the problem but then want to exasperate it and play in to the terrorists hands by reacting to all muslims as though they were terrorists?

I recognize the problem, and understand that there isnt a blessed thing I can do about it. And no, for the billionth time in, I dont think all Muslims are terorists. How many times do I have to say it??

 

[Bozo Erectus]

But Bozo, DP World already has all relevant information on security regarding shipping containers, as you would know if you bothered to do some research. In fact, the entire United Arab Emirates has our security information on shipping containers.

Why? Because the UAE is a part of America’s Container Security Initiative. (CSI)

CSI was launched in 2002 by the U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection. It allows the US and its allies to screen high risk cargos at each other ports. In other words, we tell the UAE which containers we're going to be searching, and they tell us which ones they're going to be searching, so that we can cover more ground.

So having DP World run the ports doesn't change our security situation at all. If Al Qaeda has infiltrated DP World or the UAE, then they already have all the information they need to smuggle stuff into this country.

It's voluntary measure. We're under no compulsion to tell them everything that we're going to be searching, so there's no need to reserve any rights. But the UAE has been a staunch ally to us in the Middle East, and they have no reason to want to see terrorists take us down.

As I pointed out earlier, less than 5% of containers coming into the country are screened in any way whatsoever. When security resources are that sparse, you have to make the absolute most of them. And the only way we can do that is cooperation.

You seem to be saying that we may as well have let DP World operate in the ports, because no matter what, we're wide open, and terrorists can smuggle a nuke into the country at any time regardless of what firm is bringing them over. Is that right?

 

[Little Raven]

You seem to be saying that we may as well have let DP World operate in the ports, because no matter what, we're wide open, and terrorists can smuggle a nuke into the country at any time regardless of what firm is bringing them over. Is that right?

More or less. There's certainly no valid security reason to keep them out.

At least by letting DP World run the ports, we show moderate Muslim countries that the Western world will accept them when they make efforts to modernize. Not to mention we avoid giving Emirates Airlines a compelling reason to favor Airbus over Boeing, or Dubai a compelling reason to re-examine it's policy regarding the US Navy in Dubai ports.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

More or less. There's certainly no valid security reason to keep them out.

At least by letting DP World run the ports, we show moderate Muslim countries that the Western world will accept them when they make efforts to modernize. Not to mention we avoid giving Emirates Airlines a compelling reason to favor Airbus over Boeing, or Dubai a compelling reason to re-examine it's policy regarding the US Navy in Dubai ports.

Well, first you seem to say we have nothing to fear, because Dubai is a member of CSI, but then youre saying that we're wide open to attack anyway. So if CSI is irrelevant, I find it even harder to believe that a US bound containers point of origin has nothing to do with the threat level. Its as easy to get a nuke into a container in a UK port as in a Dubai port?

As for the business interests that could be threatened, I know, its a shame, and I hope they arent. We sure could use those jobs that big airplane orders would create. It seems apparent that there are some very real problems between the West and the Islamic world, regardless of how we'd like things to be. Its like a new Cold War.

 

[Irish Caesar]

Only because we choose to think of it like that. There's no reason for this to be anything like another Cold War, and USA just wasted a perfectly good opportunity to nicen things up with the neighbors. Thanks for nothing, Congress.

 

[Little Raven]

Well, first you seem to say we have nothing to fear, because Dubai is a member of CSI, but then youre saying that we're wide open to attack anyway. So if CSI is irrelevant, I find it even harder to believe that a US bound containers point of origin has nothing to do with the threat level. Its as easy to a get a nuke into a container in a UK port as in a Dubai port?

The CSI isn't irrelevant, the CSI makes the Dubai port deal irrelevant.

You're worried that if the Dubai ports deal had gone through, Al Qaeda could have inflitrated Dubai PW and gotten security information that would have allowed them to smuggle bad stuff into the country. I don't deny that.

I'm just pointing out that if Al Qaeda inflitrates Dubai PW, they have security information regardless of whether Dubai PW runs our ports or not. Since the UAE is a member of the CSI, DPW already gets all the security information Al Qaeda would need to smuggle bad stuff into the country.

Damn, that's a lot of acronyms. Maybe I should join the military after all.

It seems apparent that there are some very real problems between the West and the Islamic world, regardless of how we'd like things to be.

Amazing. It's like a watching a man smash out his windows with a rock, then complain that his house is getting drafty, regardless of how he'd like things to be.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Only because we choose to think of it like that. There's no reason for this to be anything like another Cold War,

Why are there less reasons for this Cold War than for the first one?

and USA just wasted a perfectly good opportunity to nicen things up with the neighbors.

I dont think turning over our ports to foreign governments is a good way to make friends and influence people around the world.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

I know its a complete waste of time, but Id like to say something to everybody who likes to jump into threads, call people names (in this case, xenophobe and racist) and then run away. Thats very easy to do. Without thinking about an issue, without offering alternative viewpoints, without communicating in any way in the thread, you very quickly identify yourself as a fair person with an open mind, who has nothing but love for all of mankind. Its too easy, and IMO reveals a weak minded person with little or no convictions, or an ability to articulate and expound upon whatever convictions he may or may not have.

So let me explain something to the herd minded non thinkers who contributed nothing to the thread but childish name calling. Rightly or wrongly, the common people, both in the US and in the Middle East, understand that theyre involved in low intensity war with one another. They might not sit around thinking "Holy crap, we're in a civilizational clash!" but they understand instinctively. Thats why the vast majority of the American people reacted at a gut level to the idea of a Muslim country operating our major ports, and demanded that the government reverse course and reject it. When people are at war, they dont like having the enemy in charge of their ports. That doesnt mean theyre racist or xenophobe. Understand that, try to get it into your head: you may disagree, but we believe that we're at war.

Some people, like myself, only come into the thread during times such as breakfast, lunch, etc. as we are busy the rest of the day, so don't take my in and out and 'running away'. I strongly believe what I say and use such harsh words because I'm a student of history. The Japanese attacked the US in WWII, so we put Japanese Americans in internment camps. People had a 'gut feeling' about ALL Japanese then. I think that was wrong and xenophobic. Now we were attacked by radical muslim (also arab) terrorists, so we punish legitimate company because it is owned by people who happen to be Muslim and Arab. I stand by my statement. I understand we are at war. I've been involved in a few operations against our enemies and spent MUCH time away from my family doing so. But during those operations I've also entrusted my life to Muslims and Arabs who hate the terrorists more than I do. I believe we must fight this war, but need to understand who the real enemy is. If we make all Muslims and Arabs our enemies then bin Laden has truely accomplished one of his objectives.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

I dont think turning over our ports to foreign governments is a good way to make friends and influence people around the world.

But one of the core beliefs we keep espousing is free trade. We want others to open their markets to us, but we then close our own markets?! That is disingenuous and hypocritical. Many of our ports are run by companies from other nations.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

You're worried that if the Dubai ports deal had gone through, Al Qaeda could have inflitrated Dubai PW and gotten security information that would have allowed them to smuggle bad stuff into the country. I don't deny that.

I'm just pointing out that if Al Qaeda inflitrates Dubai PW, they have security information regardless of whether Dubai PW runs our ports or not. Since the UAE is a member of the CSI, DPW already gets all the security information Al Qaeda would need to smuggle bad stuff into the country.

Sounds to me then that CSI is a much bigger threat to our port security than Dubai.

Amazing. It's like a watching a man smash out his windows with a rock, then complain that his house is getting drafty, regardless of how he'd like things to be.

You cant be meaning to suggest that everything was fine, but we had to go and ruin everything by cancelling the Dubai deal. Its been drafty for a long time, long before anybody in the US even knew Dubai existed

 

[Little Raven]

Sounds to me then that CSI is a much bigger threat to our port security than Dubai.

I suggest that it sounds that way because you know very little about how our ports work.

We barely search anything. Until that changes, and there's no evidence that it's going to change any time soon, cooperation is the best hope we have.

You cant be meaning to suggest that everything was fine, but we had to go and ruin everything by cancelling the Dubai deal.

Of course not. But cancelling the Dubai deal makes things worse, not better. And what's really, really stupid about it is that it makes things worse for absolutely no gain whatsoever.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I suggest that it sounds that way because you know very little about how our ports work.

Probably, just like most of the people talking about it here and on TV.

We barely search anything. Until that changes, and there's no evidence that it's going to change any time soon, cooperation is the best hope we have.Of course not. But cancelling the Dubai deal makes things worse, not better. And what's really, really stupid about it is that it makes things worse for absolutely no gain whatsoever.

Sometimes things need to get worse before they can get better.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Some people, like myself, only come into the thread during times such as breakfast, lunch, etc. as we are busy the rest of the day, so don't take my in and out and 'running away'. I strongly believe what I say and use such harsh words because I'm a student of history. The Japanese attacked the US in WWII, so we put Japanese Americans in internment camps. People had a 'gut feeling' about ALL Japanese then. I think that was wrong and xenophobic. Now we were attacked by radical muslim (also arab) terrorists, so we punish legitimate company because it is owned by people who happen to be Muslim and Arab. I stand by my statement. I understand we are at war. I've been involved in a few operations against our enemies and spent MUCH time away from my family doing so. But during those operations I've also entrusted my life to Muslims and Arabs who hate the terrorists more than I do. I believe we must fight this war, but need to understand who the real enemy is. If we make all Muslims and Arabs our enemies then bin Laden has truely accomplished one of his objectives.

I couldnt agree more. Like Ive said a few million times, I dont think all Muslims are terrorists.

But one of the core beliefs we keep espousing is free trade. We want others to open their markets to us, but we then close our own markets?! That is disingenuous and hypocritical. Many of our ports are run by companies from other nations.

I think this DPW affair is a much bigger deal here than it is in the ME. The countries of the ME have no high regard for unrestricted free trade. They take similar actions themselves, and worse, all the time.

 

[eyrei]

But Bozo, DP World already has all relevant information on security regarding shipping containers, as you would know if you bothered to do some research. In fact, the entire United Arab Emirates has our security information on shipping containers.

Why? Because the UAE is a part of America’s Container Security Initiative. (CSI)

CSI was launched in 2002 by the U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection. It allows the US and its allies to screen high risk cargos at each other ports. In other words, we tell the UAE which containers we're going to be searching, and they tell us which ones they're going to be searching, so that we can cover more ground.

So having DP World run the ports doesn't change our security situation at all. If Al Qaeda has infiltrated DP World or the UAE, then they already have all the information they need to smuggle stuff into this country.

To add to this, a government owned company located in the UAE also provides service, logistics and security for much of our naval fleet around the world. If you really want to talk about security concerns, check into that rather than a corporation who has nothing to do with port security wanting to make some money operating in the USA.

The reaction of most of this country to this entire scenario is xenophobic. I will stick to that statement.

The UAE had every incentive not to screw up and let some terrorists infiltrate using their network. First and foremost is that, the company in question is state-owned, which means if they screwed up, it would cause a diplomatic crisis and not solely a financial one. Second, the UAE is trying to boost its tourism revenues by appearing as a western-friendly oasis, and implication in a terrorist plot against the USA would certainly hurt that image. Third, the UAE is not a hotbed of fundamentalism. In fact, I would be willing to bet that 99% of the sociopaths in who did reside in that country have left for Iraq at this point. Fourth is the purely financial loss if some terrorist were to use the Dubai companies, as the US kicked it out of the country, and put pressure on other nations to do the same. Not to mention that the contract by another state-owned UAE company I mentioned above would likely be voided.

Gut reactions by people that know little about the subject matter (which is a good description of popular opinion in the US) are not to be trusted to be logical or fair. For once, President Bush is right. We need arab allies, and insulting them because of the knee-jerk paranoia of arabs is not going to help that cause.

I just don't understand why anyone thinks that any other company would do a better job handling transactions at our ports than one who has a diplomatic incentive in addition to a financial one. The only thing I can imagine is that people in the US do not trust arabs, no matter the scenario.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

The only thing I can imagine is that people in the US do not trust arabs, no matter the scenario.

Thats a fair question, but its only half the story.

Do Arabs trust Americans?

 

[eyrei]

Thats a fair question, but its only half the story.

Do Arabs trust Americans?

I'd imagine not very much. All they get to see are our armies rolling through their cities, and all we get to see is them blowing themselves up on the news.

Will you agree that both attitudes are gross generalizations?

Anyway, trade has historically brought different cultures together by helping them learn about each other. Trade agreements are also generally beneficial to both sides, and provide a chance to build trust. We just made sure that the US will not be trusted. We have also probably hurt the US companies who have a lot of dealings with the UAE, particularly Boeing, who is working on a contract to sell a whole bunch of airplanes to a growing UAE airline.

 

[Little Raven]

Does Dubai trust Americans?



Gosh. I dunno.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

I'd imagine not very much. All they get to see are our armies rolling through their cities, and all we get to see is them blowing themselves up on the news.

Will you agree that both attitudes are gross generalizations?

Yes, absolutely.

Anyway, trade has historically brought different cultures together by helping them learn about each other. Trade agreements are also generally beneficial to both sides, and provide a chance to build trust. We just made sure that the US will not be trusted. We have also probably hurt the US companies who have a lot of dealings with the UAE, particularly Boeing, who is working on a contract to sell a whole bunch of airplanes to a growing UAE airline.

I honestly dont think this will have long term negative repercusions in Dubai or the region. Ultimately, the airline is going to go with whoever offers them the best deal for the airplanes, and anyway, have we forgotten the cartoon hysteria already? I dont think because of this they'll be tripping over themselves running to an EU company.

 

[eyrei]

Yes, absolutely.

Then what are we so scared of?

I honestly dont think this will have long term negative repercusions in Dubai or the region. Ultimately, the airline is going to go with whoever offers them the best deal for the airplanes, and anyway, have we forgotten the cartoon hysteria already? I dont think because of this they'll be tripping over themselves running to an EU company.

I wouldn't count on it. The same people we just slighted by backing out of a deal because we are scared of arabs likely have a great deal of control over the airline as well. Americans obviously aren't going to flock to Dubai as tourists, since we don't even trust them to handle boxes. Maybe developing closer ties with the EU is the better decision...