A tough game.

[NuttyPenguins]

I'm a long time lurker. Been reading and watching the forums for the better part of a year. I probably still wouldn't have signed up, if it wasn't for this game I just got.

Spoiler :

This is our leader:

And here is our starting situation:

The start looks decent. We start with fishing and agriculture so we can improve both clams, the fish, and the wheat right away.

If you'd like a bit of a challenge, try this game. It's a world builder save, so you can set it to whatever difficulty you'd like. Just be prepared.

Edit: Fractal, no huts, no events, Standard everything else.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

What makes it hard? Just the poor quality start? War monger AI central? Some AI gets 30% of the world with no war? Also what difficulty were you playing on?

 

[Ataxerxes]

What makes it hard? Just the poor quality start? War monger AI central? Some AI gets 30% of the world with no war? Also what difficulty were you playing on?

I have the same question. I think I see three seafood and a Wheat. You don't have resource bubbles on so I can't be sure about the Wheat. The start actually looks pretty good. I might go WB first with this start. Nice to get a heavy seafood start with Fishing as a Starting Tech.

 

[NuttyPenguins]

I was playing on Monarch, and lost when my axe rush failed horribly I retried on prince, when I made the WB Save, and that game is going much better. Probably due to the lower difficulty.

Spoiler :

It's difficult because the neighbors are Toku, and Shaka, you have mediocre starting land, and you get blocked in really early.

Yes, there are 2 clams, a fish, and a wheat in the starting BFC. The capitol is really solid.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I was playing on Monarch, and lost when my axe rush failed horribly I retried on prince, when I made the WB Save, and that game is going much better. Probably due to the lower difficulty.

Spoiler :

It's difficult because the neighbors are Toku, and Shaka, you have mediocre starting land, and you get blocked in really early.

Yes, there are 2 clams, a fish, and a wheat in the starting BFC. The capitol is really solid.

Who did you rush, and what time did you rush? It matter a lot

 

[ABCDPuppies]

Who did you rush, and what time did you rush? It matter a lot

Yeah -- I actually kind of like rushing Shaka because if he does get metal he tends to build a lot of impis, which axes devour. Toku is another matter.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

I was playing on Monarch, and lost when my axe rush failed horribly

That... doesn't look like it was your best plan.

I think you have to recognize fairly early in the game that, protective archers or no, you need Kyoto under your control, and early. The good news is that for the same reason you need it (the alternative city plots suck), Toku can't really improve his lot much by settling.

After that, I think it's just a matter of technique, and some stubbornness. It'll be a while before your land is better than the AI leader.

 

[NuttyPenguins]

That... doesn't look like it was your best plan.

I think you have to recognize fairly early in the game that, protective archers or no, you need Kyoto under your control, and early. The good news is that for the same reason you need it (the alternative city plots suck), Toku can't really improve his lot much by settling.

After that, I think it's just a matter of technique, and some stubbornness. It'll be a while before your land is better than the AI leader.

Rushing Toku is so tough tho. Protective archers, and combat I on everything else... I'm not very good at rushes, so maybe thats why it failed so badly

@Zx Zero Zx: I rushed Toku @ about 1000bc. I know rushing Toku is normally not recomended but I dont see an option. Could try an earlier rush...

@ABCDPuppies: I dont think rushing Shaka is do able in this case. Distance seems too great.


Maybe when I get a chance I will try it on Monarch again, and post some saves. If someone else is successful at this map and wants to share that would be welcome

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

I agree, that axe rushing probably wasn't the best plan -- obviously because it failed. But I'm not sure how to go about staying competitive without rushing Toku. The land that you get around your capital is not very good at all.

@Zx Zero Zx: I rushed Toku @ about 1000bc. I know rushing Toku is normally not recomended but I dont see an option. Could try an earlier rush...

@ABCDPuppies: I dont think rushing Shaka is doable in this case. He is too far away for my taste, but I'm really bad at war pre-gunpowder, so I could be wrong.


Maybe when I get a chance I will try it on Monarch again, and post some saves. If someone else is successful at this map and wants to share that would be welcome

You rushed WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY to late. For an axe rush to succeed you need to be rushing them around 2200 BC. 1000 BC is time for a catapult rush not an axe rush.

 

[NuttyPenguins]

You rushed WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY to late. For an axe rush to succeed you need to be rushing them around 2200 BC. 1000 BC is time for a catapult rush not an axe rush.

You cant. You have to settle a second city to get a metal. And that city in on an island, so you need sailing for the trade route.

Choosing to axe rush was the problem.

Spoiler :

If you are smart and tech Animal husbandry, you find horse in your initial BFC. Had I done this my first try, I may have went for a chariot rush instead. Would probably have worked 1000 times better.

Your quote makes my edit much less ninja... haha

 

[learner gamer]

Following on from the point made by Zx Zero Zx here:

Who did you rush, and what time did you rush? It matter a lot

I’d add one question, which I’ll spoiler in case anyone else out there does indeed wish to try this map:

Spoiler :

Why did you decide to rush with axes here? I ask because, having played the first 30 turns or so, I’ve been able to confirm that:
(i) you don’t have copper in your starting BFC
(ii) the only source of copper available looks as if its on an island to your north
(iii) rushing with axes is therefore also going to require you to tech sailing, build a galley and transport your settler – along with any worker(s) and garrison – to the island; and
(iv) depending on where you settle, mine and road the copper.

With all that to do, I’m not surprised that you found axe rushing Toku a little difficult.

As it turns out however, I noticed that you have horses (I teched mining > BW > AH to find this out) in your starting BFC. With that in mind, I'd humbly submit that the map is set up very nicely for a horse archer rush...settle a couple of cities (such as (i) the cows / fish, (ii) marble and (iii) copper sites) and then kill Toku with HAs. To recover the economy, you can then perhaps leverage the marble and look to build The GL - depending on where Shaka is.

 

[NuttyPenguins]

@learner gamer:

Short Answer: I suck at this game. Haha.

More in-depth response:

Spoiler :

I simply didn't tech AH nearly early enough. I figured the cows could wait, because of the fish that is right there. I, then, seen the bronze, and having fishing already, it didnt seem like a huge deal to tech sailing.

In hindsight, AH is a much stronger option then what I did. And if I retry it, I will go that route. But amongst all the panic of being blocked in, it never occurred to me.

 

[Ataxerxes]

@learner gamer:

Short Answer: I suck at this game. Haha.

More in-depth response:

Spoiler :

I simply didn't tech AH nearly early enough. I figured the cows could wait, because of the fish that is right there. I, then, seen the bronze, and having fishing already, it didnt seem like a huge deal to tech sailing.

In hindsight, AH is a much stronger option then what I did. And if I retry it, I will go that route. But amongst all the panic of being blocked in, it never occurred to me.

I actually might have tried a Chariot Rush instead of Horse Archer. That boxed in, you want to get out of the box fast.

 

[learner gamer]

I actually might have tried a Chariot Rush instead of Horse Archer. That boxed in, you want to get out of the box fast.

Reply spoilered just in case:

Spoiler :

Funny you should mention that. I was thinking afterwards that perhaps anopther way of dealing with Toku might be to build / whip a few chariots with the intention of DoWing him, to perhaps take out a city and / or pillage his capital back to the stone age. Then take peace whilst building / whipping a few more chariots to finish him off. The idea would be to use chariots to turn the tables and box him in to one city / choke him befiore finishing him off. That said, I've found many times that HA rushing with 4 cities (the locations of which I've mentioned) has worked very well in other monarch games when horses are around.

 

[vranasm]

chariots are not good idea against prot archers except if you are Egypt ;-).

didn't check the save/map but if you have room for 3-4 cities then HA seems like very viable thing depending on land around.

 

[huerfanista]

chariots are not good idea against prot archers except if you are Egypt ;-).

Or persia.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Or persia.

Immortals are worse than WC. Persia just has 1 leader with economy traits. The Persians are actually worse at Chariot rushing. They have to tech 2 techs instead of just 1. The Immortals are just as over rated as Financial. They are good yes but not as good as everyone talks them up to be.

 

[Gwaja]

Immortals are worse than WC. Persia just has 1 leader with economy traits. The Persians are actually worse at Chariot rushing. They have to tech 2 techs instead of just 1. The Immortals are just as over rated as Financial. They are good yes but not as good as everyone talks them up to be.

What do you mean Persians have to research 2 techs? Immortals only require The Wheel for tech. It doesn't require anything else other than horse resource.

(EDIT: I see what you mean... Egypt starts with the Wheel already, so it only requires Animal Husbandry to reveal horses.... whereas Persia doesn't start with the Wheel, so it has to research both the Wheel AND the Animal Husbandry. On the plus side, Persia's starting techs are Hunting and Agriculture, which means that you get a slight discount when you research Animal Husbandry, if that means much)

As for leaders, Egyptian leader duo isn't so much better economically than the Persian duo. In fact, I actually prefer the traits for the Persian leaders personally, even if Hatty's traits are still great.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

A tough spot but not the worst I've seen by far.

You have horses, you have a good start with lots of food and you have room for at least 3 cities, maybe 4.

Also you have SHAKA! He can be bribed on Toku once you reach alpha.

Then you can backstab toku with horses + cats or something.

I didn't find any copper so I don't know about an axe rush, unless you have iron somewhere, I never teched that far.

The toughest part might be the lack of tech trading because both toku and shaka won't trade unless pleased.

 

[vranasm]

Or persia.

I take highers base str any day... I had some game with persia where I rushed Gilgamesh, he placed his cities on hills and oops... 6 archers almost unbeatable with 12 immortals...
otoh I had game with Egypt against WK and he placed some hill cities too and the ratio was more like 1.5:1 for success...

dunno has to be the higher str base and I think WC's are immune to FS?

in chariot rush there is no competition to egypt from my experience.