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A very late ALC attempt - II. Genghis Khan

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Choeimok, Nov 3, 2016.

  1. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    @Gumbo, Choei

    Spoiler :
    Good advice from Gumbo, but I would like to clarify something as far as city count. While generally you want more cities, his start situation was limited by the Peninsula and a very close Peter. There really was on 2 to 3 settable cities early on. I think the lack of BW early was limiting as well for chops and whips. Fish city in south could be been settled and used that for GW fail gold and Maoi slow build (not generally do I do that but in this case you don't need city to contribute early for war. Meanwhile Besh builds Mids with chops and Krak can build GLH at some point.

    ha..also..my gawd, there are a lot of roads. It may have been that without BW your workers ended up with not much to do for a while, but otherwise make sure they are doing some more important than road spam.

    Heck I would not even have bothered with Rice city at this stage, but settled that down S where the fish is to get it going. Rice city is completely useless right now
     
  2. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Also worth mentioning that BW / writing before HBR offer more to learn ;)

    Can have rather fast Pyras with stone, so many hammers + chops.
    Writing allows you to build library after, also gives foreign trade routes so it's a nice investment.

    Then you have Rep scientists and can tech HBR not much slower in total.
    (slavery + Rep switch can be combined, then library whip with 6 pop you gathered with so much food)

    Nice setup even with few cities, and a really strong base for higher levels too (where it's needed).
     
  3. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    Again so many different topics... (really enjoying all the help, suggestions and thoughts :))

    Tech prior:
    Yeah, the lack of basic eco techs before HBR was one off the things feeling the most off to me - while it helped making the rush (relatively) quick and painless, it got me stuck with roading (I did stop this after teching BW) and wonderspamming for quite a while. Writing definitely would have been great, but I only really thought about Representation after starting to tech HBR and realizing I might actually build the Pyramids. :crazyeye:

    GLH: Would certainly be nice on this type of map. I think it's not gone yet (don't have the game open right now, but I only remember ToA and a quite late Judaism going around the same time), but it's probably to late at this point, there's a good chance everyone has coastal capitals if the rest of the map looks the same... even if the land around the Teal guy looks a bit less snaky than the south.

    About the Fish city though, the Fish is in the second ring, so all it could do would be to work 2x Lighthouse-less coast or one single PH mine. I have no Mysticism and Ramesses' religion hasn't spread down to me yet. Is that really that much more appealing than the Rice city which will soon get at least a few cottages? I never really even saw the Moai city as a real option while lacking Mysticism.


    Teal: I think it's neither Korea (most saturated) nor Greece (most pale), which leaves Pacal, Darius and Cyrus... Darius would be preferable due to unit prob and likelyhood to build GLH since he's ORG, but Persia has Hunting and that guy definitely has Copper just based on both mine and Peter's land lacking it, so maybe it's not all that much better than Pacal. I'm going to want to wait for the next wave of Keshik reinforcements before declaring that war.

    Peter: I can take him out, then :) (unless I get unlucky rolls and every Keshik dies, of course). I will probably resettle the same spot Novgorod (even if it doesn't autoraze, it would contribute nothing as long as I can't generate culture, building a Library from its desert mine is not really an option) is in later, but the raze gold makes it less painful, at least.


    City Count: It's not the ADs yet, I can probably still get to the famous number of 6 cities in the remaining years until then... just barely, if Teal's cities are less raze and more keep.


    Tech next: Alphabet actually sounds great since I can use it as bait to trade all those missing basic techs from Egypt while attacking Teal. Maybe I will even trade HBR, depending on the situation. Just getting to Math will be difficult that away.


    Rep Scientists: I think the Library in Kara was my last build before end of the turnset :) So I could siphon some food off production there and employ scientists... maybe it's even not too late to turn my Great Spy into an Engineer or Scientist, would have to check. Gap between GW and Mids was 10 turns, and in the last screenshot, I get a Spy in 18... I don't know how much GPP the wonders exactly give (I think it's just 2 or 3?), but with 2 Scientists, that should easily be possible.


    Moscow: I don't need the Archer if I don't want to settle the purple city, and I probably actually don't right now - if I already reduce my hammer output by running scientists, I should not be interrupting my Keshik production as long as Teal is at least one foot in the grave. Since it has great food, I might actually be whipping it a bit unlike Kara&Besh whose "slow" hammer output make that unappealing. So production will go Barracks -> (Stable?) -> Keshiks, probably. Not sure if the Stable will be worth it since it's a further delay. Moscow does have lots of forest.

    Bureau capital sounds good long-term, Karakorum is both of on the far end of the continent and really more of a hammer or GP city than a classical capital, but the palace will have to wait until after the war, right now it's just a huge hammer sink.

    Economic Plan: I obviously didn't really have an economic plan beyond cottaging the Rice city (Turfan) and hopefully getting plunder gold and finding some better research land in the north until end of the turnset. :p The Library in Karakorum was kind of a "I don't want to be in Rep for nothing, do I?" build while I already clearly had enough troops for the ongoing Peter war, but these scientists will help.
     
  4. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    Spoiler Turn 97 / 450 BC :

    Novgorod burns, giving me gold, Keshik XP and a fancy shiny great General, and the same turn, I meet...

    it is Darius! Only 3 cities. Susa is on a hill, but defended by a single Archer. I wonder...



    He's not the only guy I meet, though.



    My Keshiks are still healing, so I'm scouting Darius. Only 2 Archers in his capital, too.


    Apparently this is what he was doing instead of building Archers... :drool: That's really lucky, considering both Ram and Asoka also have bonuses on building this thing and might very well be coastal...



    I also meet Mansa - quite the assortment of tech whores and peacenicks in this game... Even he doesn't have Alphabet.



    Double Horse, Elephants, no metal.



    I got an Engineer out of it - bulb would be Metal Casting... I'm thinking of settling him in Moscow (which is currently building a Library) instead, would make it a really strong capital later on.
    Chariot was a misclick I only noticed after already having half-built it. I'd make him a sentry, but he will be slow -> maybe he will just be city defender.


    I would have declared last turn, but Susa got a border pop at the most inconvenient time so I had to reposition. Now has 2 Archers. Pasargadae is also on a hill and Persepolis has a wall. :cringe:
    3 more Keshiks are on their way north... I think I still have the numbers required to win and take the prize, but this one will be bloody. Right now, I still have about double his numbers, of course he will whip out some more so that may not be sufficient.

    Things to do:
    - Finalize Engineer decision
    - My tile micro around Turfan and Beshbalik could probably be improved, I have 2 unworked cottages right now.
    - Persepolis and Pasargadae are definitely keepers, the latter one for being on the border alone, but it's quite resource-rich by itself. Susa... is kind of bad. But there's no point of resettling it either as the Fish is inaccessible without razing GLH and settling the horse tile. I guess it could build research at size 3 or something.
    Not sure if I should raze it.
    - Should I whip a wave of reinforcement Keshiks for the war effort in the heartland?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Spoiler :
    Susa would auto-raze anyway..good riddance

    Must get Persepolis asap. Honestly, I would have ignored Susa for the moment and positioned army 3 S of Susa so you can hit Persopolis in 1 turn. (Remember, mountains and forests are not obstacles for Keshiks)

    You can clean up Susa with reinforcements - it should fall soon though to open trade routes

    HIt Pers hard an fast..if you are lucky on units and health you may be able to get Pars right after. I don't see any but not that Immortals get defensive bonuses. Should be easy kills in open field, but tougher in cities/terrain.

    2 Cities available NW of Moscow. Old Novgorod can be resettled. - did not realize it had not grown to size 2 but it probably would not have for a long time anyway. I would settle clam cty first 1SW of of wheat (try to have WBs always at the ready for new cities that need them). That way wheat can be improved and worked later by Old Novgorod, which otherwise would be stuck with nothing to work for very long before fish. Cities aren't really urgent but sooner rather than later with GLH.

    Oh..another little tip on maps like this is to get out a scout WB. In this case after Moscow well I would send one West to remove fog, meet AI,and open trade routes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
  6. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Yup go for Persepolis first, totally agree with Lymo ;)
    Great chance for making use of your Keshik abilities.

    I would even do that with normal HAs, they could attack via the Jumbo tile (1 turn later than Keshiks, with moving thru the neutral forest first).
    Attacking hill archers in bad placed cities is not something you want to do, unless you really need culture falling away.
     
  7. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I believe someone learned from the Warrior Princess;)
     
  8. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Few thoughts.

    Spoiler stuff :
    Susa would not auto raze as it was size 2 in the first pic.
    Agree with my fellow Phoenixes that you should go for the capital first. Don't give him time to whip units for his capital. Susa is last city to attack.

    You might take that with the single HA to the west.

    Overall I want to see at least 7 cities by 1ad. You have such a strong UU here.

    1-2 chariots is fine but you want mainly KK here. So much stronger over jungle/forest movement wise.

    Don't waste the GE here. MC for a bulb is too low. 700 beakers is not enough. Maybe save for a golden age or to build a wonder? Although a settled GE would give some science too.

    GE this early are not brilliant.
     
  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Spoiler :
    Good eye on Susa, Gumbo. Seems odd that it went to 1 though if Darius is not at war. I did not think AI whipped like that at peace.

    You could also settle the GE in Moscow (I assume you are in Rep), or rush the Great Library in Krak.
     
  10. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    Spoiler Turn 104 / 275 BC :

    Rushing Great Library is intriguing, but also still a long way off... I dislike letting my first GP sit around for that long even if he's not a Scientist.

    Going Persepolis first costs one turn, but should be worth it if he can only whip once (direct attack is not possible). Kind of stupid choice to position myself near Susa in hindsight, even if it would have made for a clean line of conquest.


    Expectedly, Mansa is pleased with Darius... but so is Asoka, due to annoying peaceweight mechanics. Nobody has Alphabet so I don't expect any bribes there.


    Alphabet finsihes - I will start on Aethetics for trades and possibly GLib. But for now, slider will be at 0.


    Darius has one more defender than expected, but he's only an immortal.... my combat 3 Keshiks are getting >70% survival odds against the top Archer even with the walls. Withdraw 2 Combat 1 guy only has ~65% survival.


    I got absurdly lucky and won every single battle at ~70%. If my calculator doesn't lie, that's only a 24% chance! Then again, against the Immortal, my chance was higher, so perhaps better than 24%. Still lucky, bad Karma for wars to come.

    With 4 unmoved guys, I even have a chance of capturing Susa the same turn...



    ... which I did to save the later detour, this time losing a Keshik... but he was just Combat 2. I actually won the first battle at much worse odds (Withdraw guy destroying the Archer was like 25%), but the noob Archer after him had terrible odds and won. Justice, I guess.
    Medic will have to defend Persepolis. (edit: or so I thought, but I still had another Keshik with moves who could scout/block the path by stealing a worker)



    If Darius wants to be really annoying, he will whip walls in that hill city while I heal...



    I also did some trades to grab IW from Ram and those three cheap techs from Asoka (who is now pleased). Just hope Mansa won't whore Alpha from them, I'd rather trade it to him myself...


    He might trade it for Monarchy, but I still need 2 techs to get that... :sad: Interesting that nobody has Maths. Maybe I will also have to let HBR out of the bag.



    As shown above, there's Iron in Karakorum... and in this awkward spot right here. Not sure if it would make sense to settle a junk city 1S of the Marble, but I do have a good chance at GLib... Unfortunately, the only way to irrigate this godforsakenly dry region would be to settle the desert tile the Keshik is standing on right now, which conflicts with the purple dot.



    Alternative would be to settle these two yellow dots... and Moscow looks like it needs the whip. Just grew this turn.


    Border is completely walled off by Mali, and that's even scarier than a Skirmisher. I will have to settle a city directly on the pig.



    As expected, Mansa has Alphabet... but I'm not sure where he got it from. I think he may he traded it for Priesthood and Meditation from... either one of those guys.
    I notice Darius has 2 cities - an undiscovered one named Ecbatana. Keshiks will attack next turn.



    I have a guy. I will probably settle him around Moscow and get another one for the Pig city near Mansa in Persepolis once it stops revolting. For now, he will just march north.




    Aesthetics finishes as 2 religions are founded. Persepolis is out of revolt. I'd have to give away HBR for Medi+Poly if I don't want to self-tech these... not terribly appealing right now-
    Looks like Ramesses has Theo (AP cheese? :shifty:) and the last unknown (isolated?) guy has Confu.


    Again no losses :eek:


    Ecbatana is in the jungle and seems to ruin these pigs.



    The north at this point. If I want a Settler in Persepolis, the time to switch would be now. Lighthouse is also kind of a placeholder, but it seems like the best thing to do: I don't need culture since the city is Hindu, and I don't need a Library since it's so food poor. So I could either work those coast tiles to pay for the maintenance, build military structures (but Mansa doesn't exactly look like a nice target right now, even with his unit prob) or directly go for research. I think the Lighthouse isn't too bad, research after that when I have some more improvements. Working the empty grass is bad, of course.
    Pasa also has a Granary, and it does have food, so a Library seems good.

    If I do build a settler, I could settle in Mansa's face on the Pigs (only way to get that Fish), or that double Gold city, probably on the desert hill.



    The south, currently building workers and buildings. Maybe I'll queue up the Palace next in Mos, which went from pop :mad: to whip :mad: by now. LH in Karakorum is nice with 2x seafood and a currently unused lake.


    Tech. I have marked what I believe to be the 3 most logical options.


    Polytheism -> Literature -> Great Library (in Karakorum with NE?)
    Possibilities: 1. Trade Poly from someone for HBR or Aes (both monopolies, still can't trade anything else that's good), 2. Take Medi+Poly from Darius and kill him 10 turns later. Problem: Asoka is still pleased and Mansa is friendly with him.

    Directly currency, to improve income situation and prepare CoL. Only making 6 gold at 0% while Keshiks are in the field (but that should improve as cottages are being worked and trade routes are being established... I will have to remember getting OB with the new guys.

    Mathematics -> Currency. Nobody has Maths yet, I still have several forests, and it makes Currency cheaper. Highest risk of losing the library.

    I also have 3 Calendar resources, so that would also be a nice tech... after Math and probably after currency. If I want MoM (which is a nice wonder but also makes the tech awkward to trade for early), I'll have to risk the wait.

    So where do I put my eastern Settler, currently near Turfan? Purple or Yellow? Into the west near Mansa, even? Or maybe I want to grab the Marble?

    And there's Ecbatana - assuming that it's a generic jungle city and ruining those pigs - keep it and waste food or raze it and risk giving Mansa some green land? Keep it if it has Gems? Rush out another Settler to correct the wasted food?


    On the definitely bright side of things, I did get to 7 cities with an 8th, possibly 9th and 10th, on the way still in the BCs - Beshbalik settler, Ecbatana, possibly Persepolis settler. :) I think even at 10 cities I will be able to avoid the bankrupty and get techs with Representation until full recovery. Beyond that seems like a bad idea before Currency&CoL.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
  11. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Personally, I would have knocked out Maths and Currency first on this level. You have time for Aeths and stuff and you don't have marble yet, unless you do intend to save the GE for TGL.

    Spoiler :
    Did not realize iron was up there, but I'd still settle with wheat in first ring so it can be improved for city on Old Novgorod spot. You do have GLH so all coastal cities have value but dye city is pretty worthless at the moment.

    So did you tech IW or trade for it? Please tell me you did not tech it

    Currency is also good to trade old techs for gold and resources for GPT.
     
  12. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    @ Lymond -
    Spoiler Lymond :
    If you look at the screen shots you can see he traded for a bunch of techs using alphabet. You can also see he went alphabet to aesthetics. Poor choice really given conquest and GLH. On Monarch level these mistakes hardly matter. Up to 7 cities now.

    He needs to continue war with his UU. These units will be good for many more years. Even after that pults and his UU will still be effective.
     
  13. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    IW was a trade for Alpha, I think with Egypt :)

    The city remapping idea between Moscow and Susa was mostly because of the awkward irrigation situation and the otherwise wasted fish actually, not because of the Iron - I also have Iron in the capital. Still nothing in the suspicious plains tile from the settler's start - either that has to be Uranium, or it was just a wrong lead all along. Don't think you can get Oil on plains. Even then, purple is still not a bad spot, so I'm still indecisive here.

    Aesthetics a poor choice? I don't know, GLib is appealing in my situation with GLH or not - Engineer went to Moscow as future Oxford capital, but Karakorum still has a good bunch of mines and Marble is available even if in an awkward spot. Not an easy pick between it and Currency, but I would have thought if I can nearly guarantee buidling GLib (and getting money of stuff like Shwedagon later on), it wouldn't be a weak pick.

    Continuing the wars - the problem with this is that Mansa has Skirmishers and Spearmen, and Construction isn't really affordable right now. While I could probably easily cripple him with just my existing Keshiks, an outright conquest, even with him only having 4 cities at the moment, would be very bloody. If one of the other two guys is anywhere near Ecbatana, I may attack them instead - Mansa I'd rather block-settle (probably prioritizing the gold city, I can have it in like 5 turns), trade with, maybe spy on, and postpone the conquest to a time his UU is obsolete.
     
  14. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    Well, you took out 2 AIs completely and will have the most land by 1 AD, which is a good job :). You didn't crash your economy totally either.

    That being said, you can definitely win domination or at least come fairly close with just Keshiks. Spearmen and Skirmishers are not a big deal. If you can muster a stack of 15+ Keshiks, I don't think he could defend against that. An AI with 5 cities can't outproduce you. You could even go against Longbows. Pikemen are the first real problem.

    Of course you can sit back with your captured land, recover your economy and out-tech everyone by Liberalism at the latest. Aesthetics fits with that idea. But I wonder if going full military without distractions wouldn't be more beneficial. It's faster for sure, but apart from that, you would learn about gathering momentum and outproducing the AI with numbers, even if quality isn't in your favour. Later every (or 90%) of Horse Archer rushes you do will be against metal units.

    While recovering from a rush is an important skill, focusing on one aspect and dedicating all your resources towards that (in this case: steamrolling everyone) is also vital. On Immortal something like: Pyramids+Great Wall+Keshik rush+Aesthetics wonders ... won't work, so picking one route and sticking with that is important. You could already practice doing that even now, I feel.

    Game over should come at Engineering for your enemies in this game. Full domination.
     
  15. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Erm why build oxford here??? Your capital is not a science city. You have the GLH.

    With enough KK mansa will fall. He is not a unit spammer. Pillage any metal he has. His skirmishers get no first strike vs KK. 1-2 spears won't stop a large stack.

    Overall go for the conquest kill here and start beelining construction. Keep spamming your KK unit for now.

    Use your units to scout his land while you wait for more troops. If capital has 2-3 defenders 8-9 KK will be ample.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
  16. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    Well, I can try it - there still is one fairly advanced isolated AI left as a potential concern even if I do manage to roll over all 3 enemies. Still very concerned about the Skirms.

    Spoiler Turn 123 / 200 AD :


    Got another general. Not sure which my best city to settle him is, but since this one -is- production and already has Rax+Stable, might as well...


    Another historical Mongol victim is out of the game, autorazed. One of my best-promoted Keshiks withdrew at an 75% win 10% withdraw chance. Ramesses has Maths but won't trade.



    This Iron will not be easy to get rid of. Also, Mansa just built another settler. :sad: Timbuktu is not on a hill. I trade Fur for Clam with him to get rid of :mad: in Moscow.


    The Gold should make this city pay for itself... That border looks like Gilgamesh or one of the French leaders. Maybe Khmer? I think Khmer is lighter. Too blue to be Asoka.


    Looks like the end of the continent... other AIs have to be in the southern hemisphere.
    Only Kumbi is on a hill. Saw one Swordsman, those are also nasty.


    Other guys are south as expected. Taking the Barb city and settling the Gems should block them... but right now, Keshiks are the build priority.
    Mansa has at least two Settlers, so maybe he will do it.


    Gilgamesh is met. He could settle in my lands with a Galley... As expected, he is Confucian. I would rather have had any of the French guys than him...


    He has no horses. :) I also get Medi+Priesthood for it from Asoka.


    The Palace completes. Even during the unit buildup, I want to get a temple here...


    Starting the same turn Marble is up :) I have 15 Keshiks, but many are still on the reinforcement lines.


    With help of a few chops... :) Currently making a dash for Currency.


    Here's the battle plan:
    1. Main stack (15 units) takes nasty hill city of Kumbi Saleh first.
    2. Guy pillages Gao Iron.
    3. Guy steals Niani (Ex-Ecbatana) worker
    4. Push on Timbuktu

    Those two cities form his Core (Djenne is also big, but has little tile improvements), after that his unit production should go down. He has another city, probably in the jungle.



    Also still doing some trades. Looks like Ramesses built the Mausoleum? I could bribe Mansa onto someone, but not sure if it's worth it.
    On a second look, while he has built every wonder except Oracle and those I have, he didn't. Huh.


    Egypt actually has a ton of land, more than me... but he doesn't have as many backfill spots and no 20 Keshiks. :) (some still in route to the soon-to-be-frontline)
     
  17. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Spoiler thoughts :
    His capital had 2 defenders? Always go for the capital first. That is where his iron is Your stack needed to be 1 further north. Do you have enough troops to split your stack?? Will you need more than 2-1 units for his capital? Is Mansa even in slavery? What odds do the HA have on his capital?

    Trading away HBR is perhaps a mistake. Why give the AI HA?

    Currency before lit here made more sense with your focus on war. G lib is nice I guess but hardly matters when going for conquest.

    Pick a strategy and try to stick to it. Don't get distracted by unwanted builds. Why are you building a temple? Waste of hammers.

    No point leaving defenders behind for size 2-3 cities. They don't need defenders. The Ai won't be attacking them anytime soon. All KK to front line.
     
  18. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

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    Spoiler Turn 157 / 940 AD :


    Unfortunately, both guys (Gilga is still semi-iso) are pleased with the Mansa. Oh well.


    Single defender. I lost a WD 2 guy. Can't capture the worker stack unfortunately.

    His main stack appears to be in Gao - 2 Swords, a Spear and a Skirmisher. My pillager is likely to die over there - still, that's not a lot.


    Ouch! I think Keshik 11 had Combat 2 Shock, my Combat 4 guy is still alive.



    Just a Skirmisher and a Sword - that's pretty pitiful...



    I actually contemplated razing as there's nothing inside and it's off the river... but it's a better HE spot than Beshbalik and it's unlikely this game will reach Steam Power at this point.



    The battle of Djenne went... less favourably than previous engagements. Only 3 defenders (the lots of units in there are mostly workers), but I lost lots of units including my Supermedic at 90% odds that I should never have taken. Still 2 guys, badly wounded but so are mine. Can't take ceasefire, Mansa refuses to talk.


    So that was a really stupid setback, but reinforcements arrive as my new (bad) medic heals what remained of the original stack... and Mansa makes a mistake, removing a defender...


    Should have fogbusted that damn spot... :cry:



    At last! Only one more Keshik died this time. I'll clean up the north (still has metal), then go south. I get a new General out of the fighting.


    Gao is razed with some auxillary foot troops, but giving HBR to doent-have-horses-Mansa comes back to bite me (but I could snipe him with my healing guys in Timbuktu). Already 700 AD... :sad:


    Looks like Gilga wants to resettle Novgorod here... Not if I have a say in it. :p



    That was really close... :crazyeye:



    In a split attack, Walata and Niani fall in a single turn. I lost a Combat 4 Keshik at the former. Asoka and Ramesses both have Feudalism and several hill cities, so it seems to make sense to actually stop pumping units here and focus on my land advantage. Of course, Awdaghost (horse city) has to go first.



    The last city is razed because of all the yellow culture surrounding it and Mr. Tech Lead is out of the game. Much later than I hoped, but at least before 1000 AD...


    Gilga will give me MC and a Map for some junk. He's plotting, and the target will be me.


    The land, currently in a wave of civilian builds (I was running out of money and Mansa was running out of troops), apart from Susa (didn't notice before) and arguably Timbuktu. I still have 6 spots to settle, which will put me at 23 cities. Still far from domination, though.


    My stack. As mentioned, I had to use a few support troops like catapults against Mansa's later cities because the HA losses at Djenne were horrendous. It would be enough take out maybe the northern third of Ramesses' land, but not all. Not against Longbows. His capital is on a hill.
    Many units are still wounded. And of course I need to bring some of those captured workers down to Niani...


    The southeast, two Egypt cities are still undiscovered, one being Memphis, that floodplains site. Both have Longsbows and Elephants. There's also the Buddhist AP to consider.


    Mr. Giggles, plotting against probably me. His cities are small, cold and dry and he's behind in tech.


    Tech situation is not bad even after a long time of losing gold at 0%. I'm heading for Liberalism, Ramesses is 2 techs from Engeineering. Gilga appears to be beelining it.


    I can definitely get 40% by settling the remaining empty land I have secured, but 64% is a loooong way off.

    I don't know, I'm not that fond of the idea of slogging through the remaining half of the continent, I'd rather work a tech advantage out of this... Roosevelt war in the DG game was started around the same date against a similarly big enemy as Ramesses, and was really painful.

    If I had went south instead of going for Mansa, perhaps it would have gone better... but not really sure this way. In a war, I'd probably just take Akhetaten and his other border city (I think Hieranconpolis, according to his city list), raze 2-3 more to cripple him and peace out as my stack dies and WE shoots up (at least he doesn't have Zeus, India does). Not sure if that's really stronger than peacefully teching into the Renaissance (while defending against Gilgemesh's eventual galley invasion) given the circumstances.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2016
  19. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    22,202
    Location:
    UK
    Spoiler Thoughts :

    Looks like first 2 cities of Mansa went well. Then it all went wrong. Did you heal your stack before your attack on Djenne. Even taking a ceasefire would of been good. Using your super medic on a 90% combat was not wise. It's simply not worth the risk as 90% combats are far from certain. Only 99% odds normally mean you are certain of a win.

    How many units did you use to attack Djenne? All healed?? You wanted at least 2-1 ratio on units.

    I think just ignore Gilga here. You won't need his land. Catapults, phants and KK are ample for the final AI. None of them have engineering. Build KK in the cities too far away If you are truly worried beeline cuirs. I think reducing down Eygptians seems wise here. You have a really mice stack there and you plan to wait? Eygptians are not unit spammers. You could of taken 3-4 more cities by bombarrding defences. 1 more Ai to find?

    What are the costs in these cities you are building court houses?? Over 8-10 a turn?? If not I would not be building court houses.

    Yes gifting HBR was a mistake.

     
  20. Choeimok

    Choeimok Spreading the confusion

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2011
    Messages:
    197
    I think I had maybe 2-3 units at less than full health (but over 2/3) - I saw Djenne only having 3 units and thought I'd be easy since I still had around 10 units in the stack after taking the first 2 cities and attacked somewhat but not fully healed. Also to remove a flank for sudden attacks, Timbuktu was kind of pinched in his culture. When it came down to the Supermedic attacking, I probably should have just retreated. And then it started off with the first Skirmisher killing my first Keshik unscathed and didn't get much better...

    For Gilga: There's a chance is target is Ramesses, he's his worst enemy. I just don't think it's likely since they are extremely far apart. I can't completely ignore him as the city he would attack (Samarkand) is quite close to my capital and doesn't have good whipping potential right now. Still, he would have to have a lot of Galleys. I need to build a Trireme to take care of a barb galley (that chased Gilga's WB south from Tabriz for ~40 tiles and killed the hammer-waste of a Galley defending Karakorum's Clam I built specifically for this reason :mad:) anyway though. That happened before I had MC..
    My culture isn't advanced enough to scout him yet, but I could block his passage.

    Egypt attack: I don't have fully healed yet, before that I definitely don't want to attack. Transistioning into taking cities with a slow stack with Siege+Phants seems good, a pure horse attack would be very bloody. Even if I can't take Thebes outright, he will more or less be out of the game, right now he's still the last real threat. Got to peacefully settle 12 cities while building tons of wonders, I couldn't have done that without taking out both my closest neighbors...

    HBR wasn't a Gift, I think it was for... Calendar? Still very questionable even with Calendar being very desirable in my situation. (or was it Monarchy? Then it really was bad)
    I only lost one worker because of it though, after the initial surprise I had 1-2 well-promoted guys on patrol to kill of his occasional poorly-promoted stragglers near the end. Better he spends his hammers on that than on nasty Skirmishers.

    Maintenance in Turfan is 8.7 gpt, and that city is very close to my capital. Timbuktu is paying 8 even with a Courthouse - most of the western cities already have whipped them at this point, and it made quite a change to my economy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2016

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