A Way to keep Algeria?

[Ansar]

Was there a viable way to keep Algeria as part of France?

At what point did the sh!t hit the fan and there was no going back?

How could that point have been avoided?

What about Tunisia? Would it not have made more sense to keep it (I don't have any problems with Morocco being let go...) since it is small (and thus, I would imagine, manageable)?

thanks,
Ansar

 

[ParkCungHee]

You seem to be overlooking the problem that all those places were overwhelmingly Arabic and Islamic, not French.

 

[Ansar]

Yes, but just because they're Arabic and Islamic does not mean they will be radical and hostile.

 

[Tee Kay]

The land is not big enough for the two peoples. Pour in settlers en masse and force all the Arabs over the border to neighboring countries. It's their own damn fault for fighting for independence. The neighboring countries have similar cultures so the Arabs can just learn to assimilate.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Yes, but just because they're Arabic and Islamic does not mean they will be radical and hostile.

Who said anything about Radical? Radical Islam was not an important factor in the Algerian or Tunisian independence movements. The point is the only way to hold on to the province is through the way France got and held them in the first place: through Brutal Slaughter and repression.

 

[Masada]

The point is the only way to hold on to the province is through the way France got and held them in the first place: through Brutal Slaughter and repression.

Conversely, Galula is the exception to the rule. That said, the erstwhile separatists still had to resort to brutal slaughter and repression to achieve their goals -- including, for instance, the murder of Arabs known to be sympathetic to the French etc.

Yes, but just because they're Arabic and Islamic does not mean they will be radical and hostile.

I would have put nationalist in there instead but those were fairly important -- the former especially so.

The land is not big enough for the two peoples. Pour in settlers en masse and force all the Arabs over the border to neighboring countries. It's their own damn fault for fighting for independence. The neighboring countries have similar cultures so the Arabs can just learn to assimilate.

What?

 

[Tee Kay]

Algerian pirates attacked French shipping in the Mediterranean. The French had to respond to these provocations, and rightly so, to protect their citizens from Algerian corsair attacks. French withdrawal from Algeria would pose a security risk to France. Soon Arabs would cross the Mediterranean and outnumber the French in their own country. The existance of France as a democratic French state is threatened.

The Algerians forfeited any rights to their lands when they used violence against civilians. In any case, they're Arabs and they should be removed to the other Arab countries.

 

[Kraznaya]

The land is not big enough for the two peoples. Pour in settlers en masse and force all the Arabs over the border to neighboring countries. It's their own damn fault for fighting for independence. The neighboring countries have similar cultures so the Arabs can just learn to assimilate.

The Algerians forfeited any rights to their lands when they used violence against civilians. In any case, they're Arabs and they should be removed to the other Arab countries.

I see whut you did thar

 

[innonimatu]

Was there a viable way to keep Algeria as part of France?

By the time the war started, no.

At what point did the sh!t hit the fan and there was no going back?

1946. If the new french republic had deemed all algerians citizens of France, it might have remained a single country. But even under those (rather unrealistic) circunstaces, I have great doubts.

How could that point have been avoided?

I don't think it could, really. In democratic politics, politicians want above all to control their electorate. French politicians, who were the ones who held power in 1946, did not knew who to control the algerian voters, and didn't what to take the risk of letting them vote.

It's nearly a constant. When a government is faced with the need of either extending voting rights to the inhabitants of some colonial territory, or letting it go, they let it go. The exception (as it happened with France) are the very small territories where the number of additional voters are unimportant for the big picture.

What about Tunisia? Would it not have made more sense to keep it (I don't have any problems with Morocco being let go...) since it is small (and thus, I would imagine, manageable)?

No. Perhaps Tunisia wasn't big enough (in population) to risk keeping, under the circumstances I described above, but after the war in Algeria any attempt to do so would be viewed as keeping a last colonial enclave, and lead to cross-border raids sponsored by neighboring countries. The french would continue to have a war on their hands, and diplomatic trouble, and lose all influence over the independent Algeria (instead, they'd have it as an undeclared enemy) for very little gain.

 

[Dachs]

Algerian pirates attacked French shipping in the Mediterranean. The French had to respond to these provocations, and rightly so, to protect their citizens from Algerian corsair attacks. French withdrawal from Algeria would pose a security risk to France. Soon Arabs would cross the Mediterranean and outnumber the French in their own country. The existance of France as a democratic French state is threatened.

The Algerians forfeited any rights to their lands when they used violence against civilians. In any case, they're Arabs and they should be removed to the other Arab countries.

It's uncanny, dude.

 

[Verbose]

No. Perhaps Tunisia wasn't big enough (in population) to risk keeping, under the circumstances I described above, but after the war in Algeria any attempt to do so would be viewed as keeping a last colonial enclave, and lead to cross-border raids sponsored by neighboring countries. The french would continue to have a war on their hands, and diplomatic trouble, and lose all influence over the independent Algeria (instead, they'd have it as an undeclared enemy) for very little gain.

For getting out of them, it helped that Tunisia and Morocco were "proper" colonies, i.e. France had moved in and supplanted the traditional power structure, but these people were still hanging around. In these cases the French Republic in 1956, by the stroke of a pen, could pretty much just hand the keys back to the old ruling elites, and decamp.

Since Algeria had been an ongoing French project since 1830, formally integrated in the official administrative structure of France proper as two départements etc., things worked different there.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Conversely, Galula is the exception to the rule. That said, the erstwhile separatists still had to resort to brutal slaughter and repression to achieve their goals -- including, for instance, the murder of Arabs known to be sympathetic to the French etc.

Not saying the Nationalists were exactly wonderful, but the OP suggests that colonialism was in some way alright in the first place, and that there was just a point when "the hit the fan" and France lost it. The fact is, France never had it except at the end of a Bayonet.

 

[TheWesley]

Not saying the Nationalists were exactly wonderful, but the OP suggests that colonialism was in some way alright in the first place, and that there was just a point when "the hit the fan" and France lost it. The fact is, France never had it except at the end of a Bayonet.

Not true- as already mentioned, there were Arabs who supported French rule. As I understand it, there were even Arabs who fled to France when Algeria was lost.

 

[Ramius75]

The Algerian can move to France and The French more to Algeria.

 

[Masada]

Not saying the Nationalists were exactly wonderful, but the OP suggests that colonialism was in some way alright in the first place, and that there was just a point when "the hit the fan" and France lost it. The fact is, France never had it except at the end of a Bayonet.

That's not quite true. For the reasons listed below:

Not true- as already mentioned, there were Arabs who supported French rule. As I understand it, there were even Arabs who fled to France when Algeria was lost.

If anything the overreaction on the part of the French Government significantly exacerbated tensions and eventually rendered the situation untenable. If they hadn't managed to alienate such a large portion of the population so quickly, it is possible that it could have been retained.

 

[The Imp]

... killing lots of Algerians and plant little communist star's on the corpses?

 

[Agent327]

Was there a viable way to keep Algeria as part of France?

Short answer: no. (As De Gaulle very well realized, despite his "Je vous ai compris" speech to French Algerians.)

 

[Shaihulud]

If France would convert to Islam and call themselves the Republic of Algeria.

 

[Agent327]

According to certain people that is now likely to happen (although mathematically speaking it's not really very likely).

 

[Masada]

If France would convert to Islam and call themselves the Republic of Algeria.

France should have been Protestant... it went with boring ol' Rome.