About a Mac version: Some numbers from (yes) Steam

[Helmling]

you should have taken it to Apple to fix that problem, they are only supposed to eject half way

Note: use a student discount and upgrade RAM and HDD yourself (save them in the Applecare box) so when you sell it you break even (Apple overprices their upgrades except 512GB SSDs ) and the next one is basically free!
If you don't buy student discount then buy refurbished, same warranty, went through higher quality control process and sometimes free upgrades

He said it was in a computer lab. If he'd taken the iMac in for service, then he'd have been arrested.

 

[civ_king]

He said it was in a computer lab. If he'd taken the iMac in for service, then he'd have been arrested.

then he should have told the people in charge of the lab, either way it should have been serviced

 

[Helmling]

then he should have told the people in charge of the lab, either way it should have been serviced

Congratulations, I certify that you have no sense of humor.

 

[civ_king]

Congratulations, I certify that you have no sense of humor.

_NOOOOOOOOOo

well actually you are correct

 

[PieceOfMind]

you should have taken it to Apple to fix that problem, they are only supposed to eject half way

Why must life be so complicated? Next time I went into that lab I just used the PCs. Sure, they were cheap and crappy Dells but they "just worked". Besides, the only reason I was using the iMac on that occasion was that all the PCs were taken.

Note: use a student discount and upgrade RAM and HDD yourself (save them in the Applecare box) so when you sell it you break even (Apple overprices their upgrades except 512GB SSDs ) and the next one is basically free!
If you don't buy student discount then buy refurbished, same warranty, went through higher quality control process and sometimes free upgrades

Thanks for the advice but it sounds too complicated for me. Except for the laptop I have, I already build my computers from scratch and have no trouble finding parts that are good value. You might be paying a slight premium when you buy a Mac in the US, but the price gets ridiculous down here in Oz.
There are two main things that have stopped me or discouraged me from buying a Mac:
1) Price.
2) Closed design. To me, a desktop computer needs to be basically an open workbench where I can easily change any part at will. The ATX form factor has always served me well.

As far as I'm concerned, their OS X might be even better than Windows, but if I have to use a Mac machine to use that OS then it's not an option to me.

 

[civ_king]

Why must life be so complicated? Next time I went into that lab I just used the PCs. Sure, they were cheap and crappy Dells but they "just worked". Besides, the only reason I was using the iMac on that occasion was that all the PCs were taken.



Thanks for the advice but it sounds too complicated for me. Except for the laptop I have, I already build my computers from scratch and have no trouble finding parts that are good value. You might be paying a slight premium when you buy a Mac in the US, but the price gets ridiculous down here in Oz.
There are two main things that have stopped me or discouraged me from buying a Mac:
1) Price.
2) Closed design. To me, a desktop computer needs to be basically an open workbench where I can easily change any part at will. The ATX form factor has always served me well.

As far as I'm concerned, their OS X might be even better than Windows, but if I have to use a Mac machine to use that OS then it's not an option to me.

If you do Windows, Building>Buying,

Mac Pro

looks like what you want, plus the dual CPU version is priced basically the same as a dell/hp/whatever


MacBook Pros are lightweight and long battery life (plus you can upgrade RAM and HDD easily, or you can swap the Optical for another HDD/SSD)

 

[bjbrains]

Plus the dual CPU version is priced basically the same as a dell/hp/whatever

What? The dual CPU version is 3.5K! Stop spouting propaganda and untrue statements. I don't care how much you claim they're 'lightweight', they cost a ridiculous amount of money.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Um, the cheapest Mac Pro for sale here is 3500 AUD (about 3130 USD)

http://store.apple.com/au/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro?mco=MTAyNTQzNDQ

Sure, the parts might be the latest and greatest, but I never buy the latest and greatest because of the premium price tag.

By the way, if I had a budget of 3500AUD to build a new computer (which I don't ), I could easily build something a lot more powerful.

 

[bjbrains]

Um, the cheapest Mac Pro for sale here is 3500 AUD (about 3130 USD)

http://store.apple.com/au/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro?mco=MTAyNTQzNDQ

Sure, the parts might be the latest and greatest, but I never buy the latest and greatest because of the premium price tag.

Considering you could spend about half that to get an equivalent windows computer, I wouldn't even consider ever buying a mac.

 

[PieceOfMind]

A possible build for $3500:

-Doesn't include the mouse and keyboard

(prices are in AUD)

Spoiler :

Prices from PC Case Gear (except for Win7 OS)

I'm assuming the 750W supply is enough but I haven't thoroughly researched the power drain of those components.

And this is the Mac that costs $3499 AU.

Spoiler :

The CPU is way overkill by the way, but I wanted to at least match the one the Mac Pro had. Oh, and the motherboard is an overclocker's dream.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Guys, I realize waiting for the demo is boring, but we've been through this before in this thread.

You don't buy a Mac for the hardware (unless you are a design freak). If all you want is a bunch of chips and plastic, yes, it is overpriced. I built the server in our house myself, based on Ubuntu, because it was far cheaper than buying an OS X server. You buy a Mac for the complete package. And this package doesn't save money, it saves time. Lots and lots of time. Because, and we have pointed this out before, too, it just works. Linux doesn't "just work" (I've been using it since my 386DX, don't flame me), and Windows XP doesn't "just work" (don't know about Win 7, the people I know who dual boot it say it's getting there).

One difference we seem to have here with some people is simply age and, uh, where you are in your life's history. Those of you who have more time than money because they are young, free, and single, yeah, I can see why you buy a less expensive, but more troublesome computer. You have the time to screw around with it. I did once, too. For those of us who have more money than time, a Mac is so worth those few dollars (euros) more, it isn't even funny. What do you think I would rather be doing, installing and maintaining some anti-virus program, fighting in DLL hell, or playing with my children?

PieceOfMind correctly points out that Macs are not great to expand, except for the top-end model. However, the desktop PC is on the way out as a "personal" computer anyway -- the big sellers are laptops. And at least in my case, no laptop, be it ThinkPad or MacBook, survives for longer than three years anyway. Then the case is cracked (white plastic MacBook, don't buy them), the hinge breaks (ThinkPad), something like that. It's rough being my laptop. I don't care about expanding, because the most I do is install a larger HD and more RAM (both trivial on a MacBook). I'll need a new computer anyway.

Maybe my MacBook Pro 15" i5 was a wee more expensive than something from Dell (seems with good reason). But it just works, its body is a solid block of aluminium I could smash small rodents with, and it runs StarCraft 2 with no problems (and I think it would probably be a really super fantastic machine for Civilization V, too, by the way, hey Firaxis, did you hear that?). The fact that somebody actually put some thought into the design and it doesn't look like crap doesn't hurt, either. After two decades, I'm tired of ugly computers.

So maybe you are right and a Mac isn't right for you. But I suggest you try one for a while before you decide on your next computer -- and remember that they're around once you get to the point when you life starts filling up with lots of other stuff. Life, unfortunately, happens in real-time.

 

[Helmling]

Guys, I realize waiting for the demo is boring, but we've been through this before in this thread.

You don't buy a Mac for the hardware (unless you are a design freak). If all you want is a bunch of chips and plastic, yes, it is overpriced. I built the server in our house myself, based on Ubuntu, because it was far cheaper than buying an OS X server. You buy a Mac for the complete package. And this package doesn't save money, it saves time. Lots and lots of time. Because, and we have pointed this out before, too, it just works. Linux doesn't "just work" (I've been using it since my 386DX, don't flame me), and Windows XP doesn't "just work" (don't know about Win 7, the people I know who dual boot it say it's getting there).

One difference we seem to have here with some people is simply age and, uh, where you are in your life's history. Those of you who have more time than money because they are young, free, and single, yeah, I can see why you buy a less expensive, but more troublesome computer. You have the time to screw around with it. I did once, too. For those of us who have more money than time, a Mac is so worth those few dollars (euros) more, it isn't even funny. What do you think I would rather be doing, installing and maintaining some anti-virus program, fighting in DLL hell, or playing with my children?

PieceOfMind correctly points out that Macs are not great to expand, except for the top-end model. However, the desktop PC is on the way out as a "personal" computer anyway -- the big sellers are laptops. And at least in my case, no laptop, be it ThinkPad or MacBook, survives for longer than three years anyway. Then the case is cracked (white plastic MacBook, don't buy them), the hinge breaks (ThinkPad), something like that. It's rough being my laptop. I don't care about expanding, because the most I do is install a larger HD and more RAM (both trivial on a MacBook). I'll need a new computer anyway.

Maybe my MacBook Pro 15" i5 was a wee more expensive than something from Dell (seems with good reason). But it just works, its body is a solid block of aluminium I could smash small rodents with, and it runs StarCraft 2 with no problems (and I think it would probably be a really super fantastic machine for Civilization V, too, by the way, hey Firaxis, did you hear that?). The fact that somebody actually put some thought into the design and it doesn't look like crap doesn't hurt, either. After two decades, I'm tired of ugly computers.

So maybe you are right and a Mac isn't right for you. But I suggest you try one for a while before you decide on your next computer -- and remember that they're around once you get to the point when you life starts filling up with lots of other stuff. Life, unfortunately, happens in real-time.

Well put, my friend.

And can I add: Hey, they're all just computers. Who cares, right?

 

[isndl]

Macs can run windows in Parallels, which means you don't have to quit OSX to run Windows.

And I can run virtual machines on a Windows or Linux machine, too. Can't run OSX inside a VM, but that's because Apple deliberately made it difficult.

And for years upon years, every showdown between OS X and whatever flavor of Windows was on the market ended badly for Microsoft. I could go dig up sources to confirm that, but what's the point? As I said, apparently with Windows 7, Microsoft has finally gotten it right--but too late for me.

I'll admit to not having paid close attention to the comparisons between Windows and Mac when new versions were released, but it seems to me that they were never really fair comparisons to begin with. One on hand, you have a custom-built system that does no more than necessary, while on the other you have a generalist system that tries to encompass as much hardware and software compatibility as possible. It's a trade-off that is never recognized in most reviews.

Then you start making the comparisons using OEM systems that bundle bloatware to increase profits, and the end results are a foregone conclusion.

It's funny, you sound just like me when I was twenty. Back then I was working in software and I was a hardcore PC guy. I'd rail against Macs. Of course, back then they really weren't anything to get excited about. Mac OSX really was a game changer, though, and I was wooed over. Now, I really do appreciate the experience above most else--the aesthetics you dismiss are part of that, but again I stress the ease of use.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Macs. I understand the value in a well-designed user interface and easing the learning curve for newer users, and Apple has done very well in those areas. What irks me is when people start touting the 'experience' and seemingly imply that there's some sort of mystical quality present in the machine.

Properly explaining my feelings on the matter would take far more words that it's worth, so I'll just leave it there.

Why shouldn't a machine be a work of art, through and through?

My main gripe about turning things into works of art is that they inevitably take things too far. They start crippling existing features to streamline the experience, and your artful masterpiece is less functional than before.

As far as I know, OSX has suffered far less from this than Windows has, but these days I'm uneasy whenever something becomes 'context-sensitive' or 'completely redesigned', because they've more often than not made it harder for me to get to what I want to use. It's not just relearning where it is, it's having to click and/or wait more to get there.

And, in terms of performance, here's a link for you:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2363510,00.asp

Editor's choice in PC Magazine. I'm not sacrificing performance. I'm gaining versatility and design. At a premium? Maybe, but you get what you pay for.

I should've chosen my words more carefully - when I said 'performance', I meant 'productivity'. Those are indeed impressive specifications, but the real question is whether it would meet your needs when it comes to actual use. The computer performance may be better, but if my personal performance becomes substandard, it probably isn't worth it.

 

[Tarkhan]

OS X does not meet my needs for intended use, through no fault of their own.

The entire industry I work in is PC based, because you can't put AutoCAD onto a Mac. There are alternatives, of course, but it's just easier to use windows and not worry about compatibility issues or obscure features being left out.

Through from experience in a dual PC/Mac computer lab, the scroll wheel/ball thing on the factory mice on the iMacs in there have a really bad habit of crapping out and breaking. If I owned one, i'd be using a 3rd party USB mouse with the machine. Also, the USB ports aren't very intuitively placed, looked all over the screen, turns out theyre hiding under the keyboard. Minor issues that probably wouldnt exist if I owned the system.

Back on topic, I absolutely can't see any reason not to put Civ5 on Mac over Steam.

 

[civ_king]

Um, the cheapest Mac Pro for sale here is 3500 AUD (about 3130 USD)

http://store.apple.com/au/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro?mco=MTAyNTQzNDQ
Try building it with workstation parts
Sure, the parts might be the latest and greatest, but I never buy the latest and greatest because of the premium price tag.

By the way, if I had a budget of 3500AUD to build a new computer (which I don't ), I could easily build something a lot more powerful.

Yes, it is widely know that the single processor Mac Pro is expensive because it uses server parts (and because Apple wants those buyers to go for the iMac)

Considering you could spend about half that to get an equivalent windows computer, I wouldn't even consider ever buying a mac.

Dell Precision T7500 64bit Dual Processor
I configured it to meet the specs of the dual CPU Mac Pro and guess what, it is $500 more than the dual CPU Mac Pro! Yes Virginia, workstations are expensive

OS X does not meet my needs for intended use, through no fault of their own.

The entire industry I work in is PC based, because you can't put AutoCAD onto a Mac. There are alternatives, of course, but it's just easier to use windows and not worry about compatibility issues or obscure features being left out.

Through from experience in a dual PC/Mac computer lab, the scroll wheel/ball thing on the factory mice on the iMacs in there have a really bad habit of crapping out and breaking. If I owned one, i'd be using a 3rd party USB mouse with the machine. Also, the USB ports aren't very intuitively placed, looked all over the screen, turns out theyre hiding under the keyboard. Minor issues that probably wouldnt exist if I owned the system.

Back on topic, I absolutely can't see any reason not to put Civ5 on Mac over Steam.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/apple/evidence-of-autocad-mac-edition-surfaces/6973
AutoCAD is returning to Mac

yes, there is a USB port on the keyboard and behind the monitor

 

[EmpireOfCats]

AutoCAD is returning to Mac

How very interesting. I had missed that.

 

[civ_king]

How very interesting. I had missed that.

My dad is an architect and he's currently running Pentium 4s hopefully AutoCAD is out by mid next year

 

[PieceOfMind]

Um, the cheapest Mac Pro for sale here is 3500 AUD (about 3130 USD)

http://store.apple.com/au/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_pro?mco=MTAyNTQzNDQ
Try building it with workstation parts
Sure, the parts might be the latest and greatest, but I never buy the latest and greatest because of the premium price tag.

By the way, if I had a budget of 3500AUD to build a new computer (which I don't ), I could easily build something a lot more powerful.

Yes, it is widely know that the single processor Mac Pro is expensive because it uses server parts (and because Apple wants those buyers to go for the iMac)

Can you please make it a bit more obvious when you alter a quote?

Ok, so the Mac Pro is using server parts. That was the cheapest Mac Pro I could find.
The hypothetical computer I built was using expensive enthusiast (aka rich gamer) parts. Apart from possibly the DVD drive, it's not as if I was using cheap and nasty parts. Especially for the RAM and CPU, I was throwing in stupidly cutting-edge premium stuff.

I'm trying really hard to find a Mac that would represent good value to me. I don't normally call myself a gamer but for the purpose of choosing computer parts I may as well. What iMac would be the best value to me? Suppose my budget is around about 1500 AUD maximum. ... Oh wait, the cheapest iMac I see is 1600. Ok I better make that my maximum spend instead for the fair comparison. Are you suggesting to me the $1600 iMac on this page: http://store.apple.com/au/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac

 

[Skwink]

Whenever there is a Mac topic on this site, the whole thing turns into a war...

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Y'all will be happy to know that Apple just fixed the graphics driver bugs in Snow Leopard with an update (like, finally). The really interesting part is that they actually came out and said that it fixes problems with Valve's games Portal and TF2 as well as with StarCraft 2. Usually Apple's patches come with information to the extent of "We fixed some, like, stuff. It's cool now." Talk about free advertising.

I'm sure the Firaxis developers working on the OS X version of Civ V are really, really happy about this too, aren't you guys? Right? Hello?