About China

[温柔的杀你]

Ooops! are you a Chinese? if you are, I am really shame for you.
Who told you this kind of meaning of 5 stars in the national flag?
Don't speak it out before you confirm it.

that guy is crazy! what he said is just a bull ****! He is not worthwhile of being a chinese! He should be in Irap and enjoy his bull **** dream!

 

[bluenickle]

Man, just enjoy the game itself.

 

[温柔的杀你]

That is a "maoist" interpretation of the agricultural disaster of the 1960s.

But that is true! If you know chinese history, you would not ignore and deny
that the majority of chinese people get their farms which they have dreamed for thousands of years because of Mao. our ancestors didn't have their own
farms and they were oppressed by lords and it was Mao who changed the
way of peasant's life. Over 90% chinese people was peasants at that time so you can see
how important Mao's contribution was!

 

[Dida]

But that is true! If you know chinese history, you would not ignore and deny
that the majority of chinese people get their farms which they have dreamed for thousands of years because of Mao. our ancestors didn't have their own
farms and they were oppressed by lords and it was Mao who changed the
way of peasant's life. Over 90% chinese people was peasants so you can see
how important Mao's contribution was!

Your view is incorrect. Most peasants did not own the land they cultivated before Mao, and they certainly did not own the land they worked on during Mao's rule. The people's commune or something like that officially owned the land.

 

[ahsingjai]

If you don't like mao, make a mod.

 

[温柔的杀你]

Your view is incorrect. Most peasants did not own the land they cultivated before Mao, and they certainly did not own the land they worked on during Mao's rule. The people's commune or something like that officially owned the land.

then how could you explain the fact that peasants got their farms at Mao's time?

 

[panzooka]

ahhh please, china is never a full commune state, every one have the right to own their stuff, from the day communist party took control.

 

[NetMapel]

But that is true! If you know chinese history, you would not ignore and deny
that the majority of chinese people get their farms which they have dreamed for thousands of years because of Mao. our ancestors didn't have their own
farms and they were oppressed by lords and it was Mao who changed the
way of peasant's life. Over 90% chinese people was peasants at that time so you can see
how important Mao's contribution was!

I heard quite the opposite. I personally know of some Chinese friends of mine who had to gave out their farm lands to the government for the "greater good" Oh, and the 99-years-lease that every households have on their properties is so... BS...

 

[ionimplant]

what a heated debate... i personally think Mao is a great man with many drawbacks... just like every other great people in the history...

 

[ionimplant]

I heard quite the opposite. I personally know of some Chinese friends of mine who had to gave out their farm lands to the government for the "greater good" Oh, and the 99-years-lease that every households have on their properties is so... BS...

it depends on your definition of the ownership. you can take the 'greater good' as 'people's good' or the public's good. if communism can really be realized in its ideal form, this can be true...

 

[NetMapel]

it depends on your definition of the ownership. you can take the 'greater good' as 'people's good' or the public's good. if communism can really be realized in its ideal form, this can be true...

Imagine taking away lands from a westerner... man... they would flip and cause lots of trouble later on. The never-ending debates of native rights here in Canada is a good example of that But, to get back to the topic, I think it's the method that the government used that really bugs me. They offer you no further explainations on their actions other than "it's for the greater good". Meanwhile, the communist party is just as corrupt as any parties in the world, so that hardly convince me as why giving up my land is for the greater good. Next thing you know, the government has got your neighbors all against you and constantly yapping to your face that you should give up your land for the greater good.

 

[SuperSloth]

ahhh please, china is never a full commune state, every one have the right to own their stuff, from the day communist party took control.

this may be true today, but i dont recall it being true during mao's reign. i have had many family mambers who had their businesses taken away by the chinese govt.

then how could you explain the fact that peasants got their farms at Mao's time?

people may have been given so-called "ownership" of land, but profits and resources generated from that land went straight to the govt.

 

[秦始皇]

So hot...... seems many people being interested in chinese history ? Just one thing I want to emphasize:" one man's achievement is not only due to his ability also a correct view on himself."
PS:温柔 外国人眼中的中国现代历史和中国人眼中的中国现代历史是不一样的 虽然他们的的不可能全对 但中国公产党给出的历史可能是全对的吗?(反公等于反社会,反人类... )

 

[Tragic]

Net_maple:

"I understand that Mao was able to unite China, but KMT also did (or very close to) that as well before the Japanese invaded China. To me, I honestly believe China would be in a far better state now had Mao never suceeded."

That may be true, but KMT under Chiang Kaishiek was up until the 1990s, an repressive and brutal authoritarian one party system. Mao had the support of the peasants. If KMT stayed in power, I'm sure it would have became a better system over time, just like what happend in Taiwan. But it was horrible at the time, and the common people did not give it a chance.

"But I guess that is up to many debates. As for Taiwan and Hong Kong, they each had their own problem as well but they still eventually came on top. You don't think the Hong Kong people didn't rebel and so on when the English took over ? You don't think there were massacres in Taiwan when Japan occupied it ? Or when KMT escaped to Taiwan ? All I am saying is that the people who led the improvements in Taiwan and Hong Kong knew about their stuff much better, and therefore these two places now are far more advance than China."

Read my post. I never claimed that bad things didn't happen to Taiwan or Hong kong. I claimed three things in my original post:

one: Taiwan and Hong Kong did not suffer nearly as badly as the mainland except for the Japanese occupation. For example, before Japan invaded: Taiping rebllion, lasted 15 years, combined with natural disasters during that time death toll estimated to be as high as 200 million. (wikipedia). Also, Taiwan was already ceded to Japan prior to the war, so Japan didn't actually have to fight to invade.

Secondly, I claimed that KMT escaped to Taiwan taking with them much of the wealth of china. And lastly, Hongkong and KMT had the support of the western nations, particularlly KMT-US. Economic aid, Military aid, etc for the KMT compared to the Allies doing whatever they could to starve the mainland economically. USSR didn't help the mainland much either. Mao had idealogical disagreement w/ Stalin and Kruschev and USSR and China were very hostile to each other.

"Also, I called China brainwashing for obvious reason. I do not see Taiwanese protraying their presidents God-like figure, nor are the Hong Kong people. In fact,you constantly hear the people questioning their governments' actions and so on, which lead to better improvements. Do you need examples ?"

LOL!! 60s propaganda posters are always funny. Great stuff came out of the States and USSR during the cold war. The fact that you take them seriously and think that mainland chinese people take them seriously is amusing Also, if you were paying any attention at all to the numerous chinese posters on this thread, many people suffered from mao. It is clear to everyboyd in China that Mao screwed up royaly with the cultural revolution and the Great leap forward. Even the communist government shares that view. Dengxiaoping called Mao "7 parts good 3 parts bad".

Mao is NOT viewed as a god in china. But he is a symbol of China, and you evidently do not get that distinction. Your claim that mainland chinese are brainwashed is biased and insulting to our intelligence.

Seriously though, communism was a huge experiment. It took the mainland until the mid 70s to figure out what works and what doesn't economically. So in reality, modern China is only 3 decades old. It'll catch up. Just you wait.

 

[gakkun]

Personally my family (the whole of China in fact) are still affected by what Mao has done. But I still think he deserves to be the leader in this game because he's still one of the icons of recent Chinese history. How important people see him in another thousand years is another thing.

But China was definitely screwed up by the Cultural Revolution. People nowadays aren't the same as who they were before. All they care about now is money money money. A recent survey showed most 5 year olds wanted to become millionares when they grow up. How sad is that? China has lost what her ancestors has left her (the culture, ideology) and people have become very selfish.

I am Chinese myself but I really wish China would become a better country before it dominates the world, if ever. We are hearing about how China is powerful blah blah but in reality I think it's only on the surface. There are lots of things that are still huge problems (human rights, massive corruption, indifference to human life by the authority, inequality I could go on for hours).

 

[温柔的杀你]

So hot...... seems many people being interested in chinese history ? Just one thing I want to emphasize:" one man's achievement is not only due to his ability also a correct view on himself."
PS:温柔 外国人眼中的中国现代历史和中国人眼中的中国现代历史是不一样的 虽然他们的的不可能全对 但中国公产党给出的历史可能是全对的吗?(反公等于反社会,反人类... )

who are you? what's your ID in kk?
Communist party has already valued Mao's contribution and faults in 80's,
and Communist party didn't deny history with giving 7 positive points to Mao's contribution and 3 negative points to his faults.

 

[mag827]

I think the people here (especially the forumers from the West) are interested in Chinese history mainly because China is a communist country. I believe most westerners know very little about China before WWI, even though it was one of the superpowers in the past, and the main reason is that China was not a communist country then.

There is this long, peaceful but tense cold war that went on for 40+ years between the communist blog and the democratic blog. China is involved (albeit a small part) in this cold war and the people in the West are informed of the things that happened in China, and may I say most of them are the supposedly wrongdoings of the Chinese leadership. Of course the same happened in China and Russia too, their media have cited countless times the faults of the US and UK governments. I think this is the main reason, along with the history education, that explains why people living in and out of China viewed the country and its leaders so differently.

Well I generally avoid talking about history in any occasions, simply because it usually sparks an unhealthy debate (there are lots of insults and personal attacks in this thread). I hope this thread will sink to the bottom soon, and let us all enjoy this game and be free of all these meaningless history arguments which lead to absolutely nowhere.

 

[Sylphic]

I think, most of you guys have a little bit of fuzzy history floating about. Alrite, here's my 2cents.

Here's how modern china was truly formed in a sumarized format. Sun Yat-sen, after ELEVEN attempted revolutions finally makes one big enough in 1911 to challenge the Qing Dynasty Empress, ci hui or whatever her name is in english translation. Sun Yat-sen was a member of the NATIONALISTS, but he didn't have strength by himself, and he joined up with Mao Zedong the leader of the COMMUNIST party. He got a LOT of soviet aid, in exhcange for accepting the communists and he did amass quite an army ready to take control of China from his home base in Guang Dong. However, here's the catch, HE DIED BEFORE HE ACTUALLY MARCHED. So technically, he didn't really contribute. Then the nationalists split between Chiang Kai-shek and Mao, and of course the commies beat the nationalists, and that's why u have commie mainland and nationalist Taiwan.

As for Mao, he is still idealized and idolized in China. Heck, his picture hangs in Tian An Men square. He has done things much, much worse than Hitler, yet no one knows about them because Eastern History and WWII in Asia never got as much attention as Western/Middle East History. And he is a HORRIBLE choice for a leader, but why is he still China's symbol? Simple. Because his regime lives on today, and Hitler's has fallen. History is always written by the victor

So why is Mao so bad? It is true he attempted to destroy the entire Chinese culture. Hence, the cultural revolution. He WAS against Ancestral worship and anything chiense from the past. The cultural revolution + the great leap "forward"(more like backward) set China back TWENTY YEARS in it's development and KILLED NEARLY TWENTY MILLION PEOPLE. Hitler killed 6 million jews... he doesn't even stack up to Mao. And worse yet... mao did all those things, because he wanted to be CHAIRMAN, and oust Deng Xiao Peng who succeeded him, after his Great leap forward collapsed.

That being said, he DID beat the nationalists, and he was CRUCIAL to China's "defense" from the japanese during WWII. He has some merits, but his huge mistakes and obsession with power (e.g. refusing the let russian industrial planners help plan industrial development, and doing it himself, when he was a university drop out! for fear of losing control! What an idiot!). Mao has few redeeming qualities, and is a symbol of all the suffering pain, starvation, and death to many of the Chinese who escaped out of the country during the cultural revolution and prior and subsequent events.

He is definately a poor choice, but also the one that westerners know best, hence the reason he is in the game. sigh.

 

[温柔的杀你]

people may have been given so-called "ownership" of land, but profits and resources generated from that land went straight to the govt.

yes, Mao's time was not a golden time, but compared it with those miserable time before Mao's , you would find it was a big step in history.
My great-grandfather was a lord and his farms and treasure was divided
to other poor people. He was tortured during Mao's time, but he never hated
Mao,never, and the majority of the old generations truly loved Mao.
It is some of youths in china born after culture revolution who dislike Mao because they view Mao in the eye of modern time.and they scold Mao this
and that while absolutely forget the conditions of that time.As to the westerners ,they know little about chinese history and are misled by some comments.what a pity!

 

[gakkun]

yes, Mao's time was not a golden time, but compared it with those miserable time before Mao's , you would find it was a big step in history.
My great-grandfather was a lord and his farms and treasure was divided
to other poor people. He was tortured during Mao's time, but he never hated
Mao,never, and the majority of the old generations truly loved Mao.
It is some of youths in china born after culture revolution who dislike Mao because they view Mao in the eye of modern time.and they scold Mao this
and that while absolutely forget the conditions of that time.As to the westerners ,they know little about chinese history and are misled by some comments.what a pity!

I don't like how many Chinese people regard Westerners as 'outsiders' who don't know the whole story. No, they probably saw things in a clear scope because of the fact that are outsiders. What Mao did after he liberated China was definitely WRONG (killing millions and setting China back for so many years) and deserve to be scolded.