About China

[wenxue]

Panzooka - I am not a bit Chinese. English to the core but you are not the first person to have made that mistake!

I do spend my life though trying to get every other English person I meet to read the Hong Lou Meng. I have spent the last 15 years reading everything I could get on China so I hope I am a little bit better informed than many westerners.

I stand by my "claim" that access to information (and use of the net) is to a degree down to who you are and who you know in China. If the Chinese government find something they don't like here anyway they will just block the site.

Revolutionary - the information I have on the Lao Gai is mostly from reports by journalists and from autobiographies of survivours. Try googling Lao Gai though and see what you get. Certainly during the 50's and 60's the aim of these camps was to work and starve enemies of the state to death. Nowadays they have an ecomonic function. Many of the cheap Chinese goods sold abroad are made in these prisons. China is one of few countries where prisons make rather than cost money. Amnesty International should certainly be able to help you with information on them. Also try books by Harry Wu and Zhang Xianliang.

 

[XGustaX]

yeah i think many people on this forum are just rude to a lot of the replies they make. If you dont know about the subject dont post please! save us the trouble from wasting our time with u! Thats why there are headings hes right!

 

[panzooka]

true, the government blocks the sites. but only pornography sites, and sites with political stuff such as communism vs democracy.
i've being to china last year, and i can access all the sites i want, except 6park.com which is a chinese site in america, which probably because it have pornography section

wow, since u have read hong lou meng!! i urge u to read "Romance of the three kingdoms" lol.
the english version is freely available here http://threekingdoms.com

 

[wenxue]

Already read it Panzooka! Have most of the major Chinese classics that I can get in English (journey to the west, the golden lotus, strange tales from the autumn studio, the water margin). I found the military detail hard to absorb though. Perhaps it's because my mind does not naturally cope with strategy and military as easily as it does with something like the Hong Lou Meng which is very much about human life and emotion. I have a website on the Hong Lou Meng - very basic but the idea is is tempt people into reading it themselves rather than giving the whole story away (www.lroberts.freeuk.com). To be honest I know so few English people who had even heard of any of these books.

Even after playing Civ for a week I still feel deeply uncomfortable seeing Mao as a leader. I'll never play as him and I don't like playing against him. I just can't help feeling like that. I would also like to say that I would like at least one female leader for each Civ. I am female and I prefer to choose a female leader but if I want to play as the Aztecs or Persians I can't. I know this reflects history but it's a shame. Incidentally I never ever want to see Tzu Hsi (dragon empress) as leader either. She was as much a monster as Mao.

 

[Sorceresss]

I would also like to say that I would like at least one female leader for each Civ. I am female and I prefer to choose a female leader but if I want to play as the Aztecs or Persians I can't. I know this reflects history but it's a shame. Incidentally I never ever want to see Tzu Hsi (dragon empress) as leader either. She was as much a monster as Mao.

I agree : more female leaders would be more interesting.
I disagree : "Tzu Hsi" would be the ideal female ruler for a Chinese civ.

Was she a "monster" ? Read what was posted concerning that very same label somewhere at the beginning of the "Neo-temporalism" thread.

 

[wenxue]

I count her as being a monster not because she ended thousands of years of Chinese imperial rule by her power hungry ineptness but because she probably (directly or with the help of others) murdered many members of her own family, including her only son.

 

[Samez]

So Firaxis didn't implement Hitler and Stalin even if there are people out there how would say they were great poeople and did a lot of god things.
But why did they make Mao as Chineese leader? Hm I would say because most of the western people will just know two Chinese Leaders (so the implemented both of them)
But on the other hand there would have been no big problem with implementing an "unknown" Chineese emperor cause they also implemented empires like Mali which I would say is completely unknown to most of the players...
(sorry didn't want to compare Cina with Mali)

 

[Sorceresss]

I count her [ "Tzu Hsi"] as being a monster not because she ended thousands of years of Chinese imperial rule by her power hungry ineptness but because she probably (directly or with the help of others) murdered many members of her own family, including her only son.

I understand your point of view.

I would like to see her as a female Chinese civ ruler : just to have a "monstrous", cruel *itch in the game.

Something like a "kwei wu".

 

[Reyes]

Incidentally I never ever want to see Tzu Hsi (dragon empress) as leader either. She was as much a monster as Mao.

Tzu-hsi is [慈禧],we call her Cixi.
U can find it out by visiting 百度搜索 (a chinese search engine ).



I am so sorry that I diged this post out. I hadn't notice the date.

 

[pub hero]

I've read a bit on Mao in my undergrad days, all I can say is that there's no shortage of amazing people in Chinese history that could take his place in a much more politically correct way.

 

[Guan Sun]

I think Mao should burned from the game.

How did he get in anyways?Aren't the leaders supposeddto have benfitted their countries inseatd of harming/desrtoying/crippling them?

 

[tymmail]

The trait of Mao should be: organized+expansion.
Organized: Mao has the charisma to mobilize people to participate in Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap. Despite the poor outcome, his charisma was undeniable.

Expansion: Warmonger! 'People Mountain People Sea' way of tactic in Korean War (where Mao's son died)! Handled border confilct (vs Vietnam and India) Efficiently!

 

[[Comrade]RaVE]

I'm sad they didn't have Lenin as a choice for Russia. Instead they have Peter. I would have eaten faces if they put Nikolas. :|

 

[Veteranewbie]

WuZeTian seems to be a better female leader for Chinese if you ask, since she's the first and only female Chinese emperor. But I believe most of the guys will know Cixi more
As for Mao, I would compare Mao with Stalin - great in the eyes of some, but definately not by the majority. Plus Mao had started the Cultural Revolution which intended to destroy the Chinese Culture and Civilization as a whole. It is ridiculous to implement such character into a game that simulates the construction of magnificent civilization

 

[balthamael]

According to firaxis, more chinese people vioted to have mao then didnt.

Romance of the three kingdoms? i learnt about that from video games!

 

[civ4noob]

It's a game, people really need to get over themselves, seriously, I'm an Aboriginal of Canada, we lost our land to Europian Settlers a couple hundred years ago, our reserves are in poverty that of compared to 3rd world countries, statistics compile that more then 70% of inmates in Canada (some 32,000) are Aboriginals, the suicide rate in Canada is ever increasing as poverty on the reserves gets tougher, mainly drug overdoses...

My ancestors, the Aboriginal peoples whom founded North America some 40,000 years ago during the ice age were the first ones here, when most of North America was frozen solid with high, high glaciers covering most the land, we migrated here over the Bering Straits (at the time was solid ground leading from Northern Asia to North America). We were considered to be Heathens to the Europian Settles (Christians). We weren't aloud to believe in the spirits of our ancestors and of the living mother nature around us, for that is heathen gods in their opinions and we'd have been arrested. The Elders tell of many stories of persecution from each generation to the next, and from them to us. They hunted, and slaughtered us if we did not comply with their demands. This may have been along time ago, but isn't China and Germany better now? Haven't your countries healed from the persecutions of your past? This hate is still strong in Canada, the government is less and less forgiving each passing day, stealing land claims and land from us daily. Benefits? You have got to be kidding me... Yes you may hear of free taxes, free college... Your wrong, we get off provincial taxes in CERTAIN provinces and only at a handful of stores. College/University for free? I don't thinkso, out of thousands of aboriginals, 1 will be chosen for a free $10,000 per year(for 4 years) for higher education. Nobody really cares nor seems to interested in the persecution that happens to this very day, no we may not have suffered recently as horribly as some of you have, but for hundreds of years Aboriginals have been discriminated against, murdered and robbed of our lands, the culture, and the civilization, though maybe not as technologically advanced as Europians, we were still entitled to the land of which we founded. We were forced to follow the Europian ways of life, or be dealt with accordingly.

Now you may all completely deny this, but it is factual and did happen and to this day is still happening on reserves across Canada, not sure of the Americans ways but here, we are still persecuted. Had not been for us helping the Europian settlers whom had never experienced Canada's harsh winters, (we gave furs and other neccessities to). They would have died by winter time. We opened our doors to welcome the newcomers, and what do they do? Stab us in the back and take control of our land. When I see a movie like Last of the Mohicans, I am happy to see Natives resist the persecution. Yes, I feel your pain and know of the discrimination you once faced, times before you were alive. . . I am experiencing this, and my elders have experienced this first hand. I was quite irritated when they removed the Iroquois from Civ4. So don't tell me you have it hard, try growing up on a poverty struck reserve and being persecuted by police whom thrive pride and joy to patrol around the reserves and jump on any oppurtunity to arrest an Aboriginal. Well, I am calmly addressing this so you know, I accept this because quite frankly there is little that can be done about it. I don't cry about it though.

I had no idea Canada is so backward in that respect. It sounds a lot like what some of the aboriginal people in australia experiences. Good luck to you and I hope there is something that can be done.

 

[Geddy]

This really needs a factual check.

This may have been along time ago, but isn't China and Germany better now? Haven't your countries healed from the persecutions of your past?

No on both accounts. China is stil struggling with social justice and germany is still rife with neo nazis. They are improving but not "healed".

This hate is still strong in Canada, the government is less and less forgiving each passing day, stealing land claims and land from us daily.

This is simply untrue, there is no land being stolen in Canada from anyone. In fact Canada is one of the most benelevent countries in the world in this regard. I would like you to provide me with facts as to what land is being stolen now and how.

Benefits? You have got to be kidding me... Yes you may hear of free taxes, free college... Your wrong, we get off provincial taxes in CERTAIN provinces and only at a handful of stores. Your wrong, we get off provincial taxes in CERTAIN provinces and only at a handful of stores. College/University for free? I don't thinkso, out of thousands of aboriginals, 1 will be chosen for a free $10,000 per year(for 4 years) for higher education.

Firstly. You seems to be wanting to pay less tax that anyone in Canada? There are 30 million canadians who would like to pay less tax, there are 1.3 million aboriginal people who recieve benefits no one else gets. Here are facts:

If you live on a reserve you pax no property tax, income tax or profits tax. You don't pay royalities or tax on reirement savings withdrawls. You don't pay provincial tax or GST.

You recieve education funds that no other Canadians have. Ottawa provides education money to Indian bands, which in turn decide whose education to finance.

You recieve fishing rights no other Candians get as well as mining royalities.

Nobody really cares nor seems to interested in the persecution that happens to this very day, no we may not have suffered recently as horribly as some of you have, but for hundreds of years Aboriginals have been discriminated against, murdered and robbed of our lands, the culture, and the civilization, though maybe not as technologically advanced as Europians, we were still entitled to the land of which we founded. We were forced to follow the Europian ways of life, or be dealt with accordingly.

That nobody is really interested is rubbish as well. Canada is a very caring country, so much so that you are even allowed to use your own law to deal with legal/criminal matters, as Australian aboriginals are. Canada does not deny its past.

No one is forcing you to follow a European way of life. They people of Canada actually gave you the state of Nunavut to help you live as you please. You can live on a reservation and live exactly as your ancestors did, if you want to. However since most dont want that type of life they have a sembelance of a european life. If you want that it needs to be paid for by all members of society.

They fact that you get massive benefits for a tiny proportion of the total population is a tribute to Canada. You are lucky being indian, you have the opportunity to get a great start in life that few other Canadians have, if you choose to use it.

 

[maltz]

I would replace Mao's philosophical trait to spiritual. He is "the Spiritual Leader of China" (during his time). Everybody has his pictures on the wall, his sculptures on the table, and his book in the hand. He had so many "movements" (most of which brought disasters) - a perfect spiritual leader, changing policies everyday without delay.

 

[Older than Dirt]

Hey, Mao wasn't all bad. There were millions of people he did not kill.

 

[gettingfat]

Just replace Mao with Tang Taizong (Li Zhimin), then every Chinese will agree.

IMHO, he is probably the most all-rounded emperor ever existed in the ancient history, not just the Chinese one, but the world. Early Tang was somewhat like the USA nowadays, dominant in basically every aspect - finanicially, militarily, culturally, diplomatically and politically.

Mao was a master in playing dirty politics and nothing more (OK, he's good military strategist). Li was a truly superb politician, and a real leader who could maximize the potentials of the people who followed him.

Hang Wu Di was actually a very flawed ruler. He overexpanded his empire. The early military actions against the Hunoi were correct, but he overdid it and led to the downfall of the Han empire. He is a legitimate candidate but certainly not in the class of Li.