Academy or Insta-Tech

[KillingMeSoftly]

The only time I build an Academy w/ Great Scientist is when playing as Babylon, and then just the first one from researching Writing. It's only useful then because it's so early, otherwise it doesn't make up for being able to bulb later techs.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Experts have posted that they can get this all done by turn 250 on a standard map;

The real experts do this under 200t.

 

[wcbarney]

The real experts do this under 200t.

I think they must cheat! I've had some pretty fantastic starts -- beautiful coastal riverside city with 2 wheats, 1-2 cows, 3 floodplains, 2-3 luxes, lots of hills, excellent sites for 2nd - 4th cities, got GL + HG + PT + ND, and still was nowhere near enough by turn 200.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I think they must cheat! I've had some pretty fantastic starts -- beautiful coastal riverside city with 2 wheats, 1-2 cows, 3 floodplains, 2-3 luxes, lots of hills, excellent sites for 2nd - 4th cities, got GL + HG + PT + ND, and still was nowhere near enough by turn 200.

Yes they do!!!
Seriously, it's all about RA's and perfect timing to manipulate the median. It's also easier on deity than on immortal, since you'll less likely suffer the penalty for being an era ahead as well as AI has cash so no need to pay for its share. I've never managed to do this either, however I was 1 RA short couple of times. Still hopeful.

 

[chazzycat]

The real experts do this under 200t.

ya. I'm no expert, but I can get under 250 with babylon. 200 range is crazy.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

What setting are you talking about? Standard speed Nano/Future techs cost 10k+. Flight is about 4.5k. Besides, games usually don't last 400 turns but more like 300- turns. Even if you pay 4gpt for GS it still costs you less than one rushed late game unit.

I was referencing the Civ5 Wiki, because trying to switch back and forth between the actual game is such a pain. I dunno if the Wiki is out of date or what, but the wiki says Flight is 2200 Bekers and Future Tech is 3800.

[Edit: I just checked Civ5. Yeah, the wiki is out of date. Flight is 4100 and Future Tech is 9500. Can't rely on anything. But it's Firaxis' fault because they're constantly changing everything.]

Regardless, Academies are still worthwhile if constructed before Turn 200.

By "300-" you can't possibly mean less than 300 Turns, because that's ridiculous. That's definitely not "usual". Most Civ players can certainly win before Turn 400 (it was just a nice round number), but only Dom Victories are possible before 300, and then only in total war-mode for the entire game.

Admittedly, I don't like to play that way. The earliest I've won on Standard/Standard/Prince is Turn 324. I love building buildings and Wonders, regardless of what victory type I'm going for. I also love the late game units. Sure, I could spam Longswordsmen and Musketmen, steamroll the other civs, and win before Turn 300, but that's my style.

 

[Tabarnak]

200 range is crazy.

Only waves of successful RAs can bring you near this mark. Agressive luxuries/ressources selling and DoWs dodging are some of the ingredients to achieve that.

 

[Barth]

By "300-" you can't possibly mean less than 300 Turns, because that's ridiculous. That's definitely not "usual". Most Civ players can certainly win before Turn 400 (it was just a nice round number), but only Dom Victories are possible before 300, and then only in total war-mode for the entire game.

You can absolutely win peaceful games before turn 300. It should be a goal really, post turn 300 you run the risk of the AI grabbing nukes or building the spaceship.

 

[The Pilgrim]

[Edit: I just checked Civ5. Yeah, the wiki is out of date. Flight is 4100 and Future Tech is 9500. Can't rely on anything. But it's Firaxis' fault because they're constantly changing everything.

Patch your game. Close, but not yet.

Regardless, Academies are still worthwhile if constructed before Turn 200.

No, they don't. As mentioned above, people actually win science games before turn 200.

By "300-" you can't possibly mean less than 300 Turns, because that's ridiculous. That's definitely not "usual". Most Civ players can certainly win before Turn 400 (it was just a nice round number), but only Dom Victories are possible before 300, and then only in total war-mode for the entire game.

Are you talking about standard speed no mods?
Check out HOF section, if you don't believe me. Only few days ago Tabarnak submitted 324 turn science win on Epic, which is equivalent (more or less) to 216 on standard speed. And there are under 190 turns wins on chieftain.

Admittedly, I don't like to play that way. The earliest I've won on Standard/Standard/Prince is Turn 324. I love building buildings and Wonders, regardless of what victory type I'm going for. I also love the late game units. Sure, I could spam Longswordsmen and Musketmen, steamroll the other civs, and win before Turn 300, but that's my style.

That's a different story. The best empire building experience and the optimal development strategy are not the same. For the latter the only academy is worth burning GS on is the one that comes with Writing as Babylon. It was proven numerically multiple times. In this thread and many others.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

Patch your game. Close, but not yet.

My version says 1.0.1.383, which is current. Steam automatically patches Civ5. I couldn't manually patch it if I wanted to.

You're probably running mods or are referencing an outdated source yourself. Go to the Civolipedia from the game's start screen, which won't be effected by game speed or difficulty, and check the following Techs:

Bronzeworking = 55
Mathematics = 105
Steel = 485
Astronomy = 780
Biology = 2350
Atomic Theory = 5100
Nuclear Fusion = 8800
Future Tech = 9800

Those are the beakers from my version. What are yours?

No, they don't. As mentioned above, people actually win science games before turn 200.

They must be playing on higher difficulty levels wherein the AI civs can egregiously cheat and therefore can can afford continuous RAs.

I usually play on Prince and sometimes King, because I can play the way I prefer to. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't get much help on those difficulties, so they can't afford RAs all the time.

I wouldn't want to play Civ5 on Immortal or Deity because there seems to be a set formula to winning, which isn't fun IMO.

Are you talking about standard speed no mods?
Check out HOF section, if you don't believe me. Only few days ago Tabarnak submitted 324 turn science win on Epic, which is equivalent (more or less) to 216 on standard speed. And there are under 190 turns wins on chieftain.

Of course I'm talking standard speed no mods. If it was otherwise I would've specified.

I'm not a hyper-competitive gamer who is obsessed with climbing the leaderboards by finishing the game as quickly as possible. If some douche tries bragging about winning the game in less than 300 turns, my response is, "WTH is your hurry?" I couldn't care less.

The way I play, and the way the silent majority of Civ gamers play (i.e. those who don't participate on Civ forums), it's actually useful to expend a GS to build an Academy early in the game.

That's a different story. The best empire building experience and the optimal development strategy are not the same. For the latter the only academy is worth burning GS on is the one that comes with Writing as Babylon. It was proven numerically multiple times. In this thread and many others.

Then it's all relative. If you try to beat the game as fast as possible, then of course an Academy won't pay off long-term, because there is no long-term. If you typically win games between Turn 300-400, an Academy is worthwhile if built prior to Turn 200 (the sooner the better, natch).

 

[Barth]

Then it's all relative. If you try to beat the game as fast as possible, then of course an Academy won't pay off long-term, because there is no long-term. If you typically win games between Turn 300-400, an Academy is worthwhile if built prior to Turn 200 (the sooner the better, natch).

It's not necessarily true in that case either. Let's consider absolute, most unrealistic best case scenario: settle an academy on turn 150, continue researching necessary techs through turn 400, and you have a university, National College, observatory, research lab, Free Thought, Sovereignty, and Planned Economy for all 250 turns. In this case you'll get 4250 beakers, which is still less than modern era techs. In reality you'll be lucky to get half that many beakers. Now yes, sitting on a GS for 200+ turns is a drain on your gold, but working an academy forces you to work a suboptimal tile for 200+ turns and is similarly bad. Settling academies (aside from the early Babylon GS) is a sucker's bet, plain and simple.

 

[The Pilgrim]

My version says 1.0.1.383, which is current. Steam automatically patches Civ5. I couldn't manually patch it if I wanted to.

There are other ways to have an outdated version of the game. And we have no idea what they are.

But actually, you were right. It is Firaxis' fault. Main menu civilopedia lies. Check in-game. Flight 4510, Future tech 10450.

They must be playing on higher difficulty levels wherein the AI civs can egregiously cheat and therefore can can afford continuous RAs.

I usually play on Prince and sometimes King, because I can play the way I prefer to. Unfortunately, the AI doesn't get much help on those difficulties, so they can't afford RAs all the time.

True. Wealthier AI = easier and more RA's. But on lower levels you can pay for AI's share. Chieftain 18x saves prove that as well. Middle levels are the most problematic ones, because neither you nor AI are rich enough. This still doesn't mean the average game takes little less than 400 turns. I think without single RA you can finish below 300 turns mark on Prince-King.

I wouldn't want to play Civ5 on Immortal or Deity because there seems to be a set formula to winning, which isn't fun IMO.

I'm not a hyper-competitive gamer who is obsessed with climbing the leaderboards by finishing the game as quickly as possible. If some douche tries bragging about winning the game in less than 300 turns, my response is, "WTH is your hurry?" I couldn't care less.

And you should play the way you find the most enjoyable. Nobody forces you to play differently. But personal taste has nothing to do with optimality, which the OP was asking about. Once again we compare apples to oranges.

 

[vexing]

200 range is crazy.

it's not that hard on the lower difficulties. i suspect prince or king might be the best difficulty for the player as the AI has enough money to exploit and techs fast enough, without the huge bonuses to make them a real threat.

the HoF doesn't have too many post patch standard speed submissions that fit the bill; the closest is martin's turn 203 diplomatic victory on prince difficulty: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?entryID=1286

for the current epic speed, king difficulty gauntlet i have a 280ish diplo win submission, though epic speed does make things considerably easier.

it's actually not too hard with the power of bulbing. you just need enough RAs (either two or three waves), having the final wave mixed with 8 or 9 bulbs from scientists, oxford and scientific revolution.

 

[zyx]

I would like to know from those of you who save the great scientists for the very late game:

Do you build the science buildings? Because I do. And I think bulbing astronomy -saving me about 20 turns - is much more useful than bulbing a late game tech which would take me 8 turns to research.

The advantages are: less unit costs due to earlier usage of the GS, jumping into renaissance era, having a better median tech, if you are doing RAs, saving more turns.

 

[wcbarney]

Experts have posted that they can get this all done by turn 250 on a standard map

The real experts do this under 200t.

I think they must cheat! I've had some pretty fantastic starts -- beautiful coastal riverside city with 2 wheats, 1-2 cows, 3 floodplains, 2-3 luxes, lots of hills, excellent sites for 2nd - 4th cities, got GL + HG + PT + ND, and still was nowhere near enough by turn 200.

Yes they do!!! Seriously, it's all about RA's and perfect timing to manipulate the median. It's also easier on deity than on immortal, since you'll less likely suffer the penalty for being an era ahead as well as AI has cash so no need to pay for its share. I've never managed to do this either, however I was 1 RA short couple of times. Still hopeful.

Man, I think that if they're not cheating then they're bragging undeservedly (i.e., they're making it up.)

I just finished testing your assertion that you can get a science win by turn 200 -- bottom line: it didn't happen. I was India, immortal, on a large continents map, had an almost perfect start -- coastal river, 2 wheats, a cow I think, 2 golds, a couple of fish, 2 sugars, lots of riverside grassland + a deer & lots of nice hills. 2nd - 4th city locations also optimum for growth. Ran the Tradition tree, then half of Rationalism & half of Freedom + eventually the Patronage opener. Anyway, my pop (& thus science) shot up super fast and I was the tech leader for quite awhile. Managed to build GL at turn 41 & took CS; also built HS & used the GE to rush the PT & then used the PT GS to bulb Astronomy. Once I had PT & Rationalism then I spammed RAs. On a large map the science should be easier than on a standard map, shouldn't it? All the AI civs but my next-door neighbor Washington were friendly throughout, and I had max RAs active the entire game (done correctly I might add).

Anyway, at turn 200 I had just finished Steam Power, had 4 GS saved and 2 on the way (within 20-30 turns or so), 6 or 7 active RAs pointed up my tech tree to Nano -- which was still too far away to start the bulbing party. Finally started the bulbing party at turn 245, with 1 GS + Oxford + a couple of RAs still to come shortly. Immediately put Delhi on focus & built Apollo + spaceship factory; built spaceship factory in the 2nd most productive city & just built boosters in two other cities. Bottom line: Finished the spaceship at turn 275 (with an unsatisfying Charlemagne score).

So, I think this game was pretty much optimum, and I played damned well if not perfectly. So why didn't I come even close to winning by turn 200?? Yeah, I could have started my bulbing party 10-15 turns earlier since it turns out that 2 RAs popped after I already had Nano & they gave me umpteen thousand points toward the Nuclear Science path.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Man, I think that if they're not cheating then they're bragging undeservedly (i.e., they're making it up.)

Hey, don't look at me! I didn't make it either! My best is 216.
How many RA's did you have in total? For me the limiting factor in tall play is usually lack of cash. I cannot sign as many RA's as I want. Besides, maybe India isn't the best civ for that kind of beeline. I'd put my money on Siam with Legalism trick and Pangaea map. For the absolute best result signing RA's should start 30 turns earlier than Rationalism + PT come. Maybe you even need another couple to unlock Astronomy really fast. For the late part prebuilds to speed up Apollo and lots of MM. And yeah... luck. Lucky ruins, quests, no DoW's etc.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10767485&postcount=27
Try out this map. Not optimal civ, no Liberty. 213t win. It is doable.

When Martin finally releases his article, we all will know better, I guess.

 

[binhthuy71]

I would like to know from those of you who save the great scientists for the very late game:

Do you build the science buildings? Because I do. And I think bulbing astronomy -saving me about 20 turns - is much more useful than bulbing a late game tech which would take me 8 turns to research.

The advantages are: less unit costs due to earlier usage of the GS, jumping into renaissance era, having a better median tech, if you are doing RAs, saving more turns.

If my randomly selected Leader is Science-oriented then I go for a Science victory. In that case I do build Science buildings. That necessitates Specialists to get the most from them which in turn means that my tile improvements are aimed toward maximizing Food. By doing that it becomes easier to save those GSs for the more expensive late game techs.

 

[Barth]

Man, I think that if they're not cheating then they're bragging undeservedly (i.e., they're making it up.)

I just finished testing your assertion that you can get a science win by turn 200 -- bottom line: it didn't happen. I was India, immortal, on a large continents map, had an almost perfect start -- coastal river, 2 wheats, a cow I think, 2 golds, a couple of fish, 2 sugars, lots of riverside grassland + a deer & lots of nice hills. 2nd - 4th city locations also optimum for growth. Ran the Tradition tree, then half of Rationalism & half of Freedom + eventually the Patronage opener. Anyway, my pop (& thus science) shot up super fast and I was the tech leader for quite awhile. Managed to build GL at turn 41 & took CS; also built HS & used the GE to rush the PT & then used the PT GS to bulb Astronomy. Once I had PT & Rationalism then I spammed RAs. On a large map the science should be easier than on a standard map, shouldn't it? All the AI civs but my next-door neighbor Washington were friendly throughout, and I had max RAs active the entire game (done correctly I might add).

Anyway, at turn 200 I had just finished Steam Power, had 4 GS saved and 2 on the way (within 20-30 turns or so), 6 or 7 active RAs pointed up my tech tree to Nano -- which was still too far away to start the bulbing party. Finally started the bulbing party at turn 245, with 1 GS + Oxford + a couple of RAs still to come shortly. Immediately put Delhi on focus & built Apollo + spaceship factory; built spaceship factory in the 2nd most productive city & just built boosters in two other cities. Bottom line: Finished the spaceship at turn 275 (with an unsatisfying Charlemagne score).

So, I think this game was pretty much optimum, and I played damned well if not perfectly. So why didn't I come even close to winning by turn 200?? Yeah, I could have started my bulbing party 10-15 turns earlier since it turns out that 2 RAs popped after I already had Nano & they gave me umpteen thousand points toward the Nuclear Science path.

I'm far from an expert myself, but it sounds like there were places to speed up your tech. Waiting until after you have PT and Rationalism is definitely not the way to go for ultra fast science - time some RA's to land right as you acquire PT/Rationalism for an entire extra round. It also sounds like you didn't go wide enough and should have had more GS's earlier.

 

[The Pilgrim]

I would like to know from those of you who save the great scientists for the very late game:

Do you build the science buildings? Because I do. And I think bulbing astronomy -saving me about 20 turns - is much more useful than bulbing a late game tech which would take me 8 turns to research.

The advantages are: less unit costs due to earlier usage of the GS, jumping into renaissance era, having a better median tech, if you are doing RAs, saving more turns.

Definitely build science buildings and fill the slots. Astronomy is the special case (or any other first Renaissance tech, the path to Astronomy is usually the shortest). You need to bulb it to unlock Rationalism.
Late techs are extremely expensive. The only way to research one of these in 8 turns is to generate close to 1k beakers per turn. That's not gonna happen with tall empire, however with some conquest and massive expansion it could be done. But in such cases I usually bulb for more powerful military techs and end up with domination anyways.

 

[vexing]

I just finished testing your assertion that you can get a science win by turn 200 -- bottom line: it didn't happen.

your inability is not proof of anything. there are many things in your post that indicate you don't know what exactly you have to do.

anyway, sub 200 for science is tough, sub 250 is easy. the hof doesn't have any standard speed sub 200 science wins, there is a turn 208 win on standard speed but only warlord difficulty here. sub 200 diplomacy on the other hand is totally doable.

sub 200 science should be doable with korea on prince difficulty, or possibly with siam or babylon