Academy or Insta-Tech

[The Pilgrim]

What about these?

 

[Tabarnak]

A sub 200 science turn win at standard speed will certainly happen sooner or later if some next gauntlets can fit these settings.

The last patch begins to get ''old'', many tactics has been sharpened.

 

[vexing]

What about these?

the gameplay bonuses at chieftain and warlord make those and the result i posted earlier not quite so impressive... i'd guess sub 170 is possible on settler.

 

[Horizons]

In my games I typically play anywhere between 700 and 1100 turns, am I the only one who prefers to play this long?

 

[chazzycat]

it's not that hard on the lower difficulties. i suspect prince or king might be the best difficulty for the player as the AI has enough money to exploit and techs fast enough, without the huge bonuses to make them a real threat.

Good point, I kind of assumed we were talking about higher levels.

 

[wcbarney]

I'm far from an expert myself, but it sounds like there were places to speed up your tech. Waiting until after you have PT and Rationalism is definitely not the way to go for ultra fast science - time some RA's to land right as you acquire PT/Rationalism for an entire extra round. It also sounds like you didn't go wide enough and should have had more GS's earlier.

Yeah, I think I could have signed a couple of RAs maybe 20 turns earlier than I did. I never really lacked for in this game since I had the sugar monopoly (6 or so sugars in all) plus a couple of tradable golds. About going wide enough: I had six core cities fairly early, which is about all I could afford without dipping into . Later on I conquered most of America and picked up about 6 wines & a couple of whales, and managed to build ND & (big surprise) Eiffel Tower so had lots of excess . By then, though, I was in my space-race mode.

your inability is not proof of anything. there are many things in your post that indicate you don't know what exactly you have to do.

anyway, sub 200 for science is tough, sub 250 is easy. the hof doesn't have any standard speed sub 200 science wins, there is a turn 208 win on standard speed but only warlord difficulty here. sub 200 diplomacy on the other hand is totally doable.

sub 200 science should be doable with korea on prince difficulty, or possibly with siam or babylon.

C'mon, gimme a break! I was being sarcastic (i.e., ) when I suggested that they were making it up. My inability is definitely proof of something: that I can't do it! I'm a darned experienced player -- probably more so than you are -- but do appreciate real constructive criticism, other than "you don't know what exactly you have to do." I do know that wins are relatively easy on prince difficulty & lower, but I have made the point in this thread that I'm playing at the immortal difficulty level.

 

[vexing]

I'm a darned experienced player -- probably more so than you are

that's funny, even though it might be true. unfortunately experience does not translate into skill.

 

[wcbarney]

that's funny, even though it might be true. unfortunately experience does not translate into skill.

OK, you just made your point. It's just that some of us have never bothered to enter the hof competitions, just as some others of us don't bother with the Steam achievements. Some of us are happy to play at the King/Emperor/Immortal levels; others get satisaction in winning at the Warlord level; others only play at the Deity level and think that the rest of us are inexperienced, unskilled wimps. You can be justifiably proud of your #1 hof score, but please don't use it as justification for an unjustified put-down.

 

[vexing]

i'm sorry, nothing i said was intended as a put down. i was terse in my response because optimizing science wins is a pretty complex topic.

there are many threads in the HoF subforum devoted to optimizing RAs for fastest wins, and the games there can be looked to for guidance. also i've already covered civ selection; india is definitely suboptimal. i'd expect a faster win with korea, babylon, siam, egypt, france, russia or songhai.

i also plan on writing the war academy article on research agreements, in which i hope to include explicit two and three wave approaches to finish all relevant techs.

 

[wcbarney]

...i also plan on writing the war academy article on research agreements, in which i hope to include explicit two and three wave approaches to finish all relevant techs.

Look forward to it! I'm a big fan of the War Academy. Well, the dust has settled and I'm gonna try again, this time as Babylon. The last time I was Babylon in an immortal-level game I got totally whomped by Alex. I stood my ground for quite awhile -- at least 'til I had artillery -- but then he came after me with Stealths & started dropping A-bombs so I knew it was time to quit.

 

[Mesix]

The question of Academy or Bulb also depends on game settings. In the quick game speed, techs are much cheaper, but the Academy produces the same base . At Marathon speed, late game techs are so expensive that saving to bulb might be a much better strategy.

It also depends on your goals with the game. If you are going trying to tech to the Future Era to launch your space ship then your strategy will be completely different than if you intend to go for an early Domination.

 

[vexing]

The question of Academy or Bulb also depends on game settings. In the quick game speed, techs are much cheaper, but the Academy produces the same base . At Marathon speed, late game techs are so expensive that saving to bulb might be a much better strategy.

no. bulbing is just as effective on quick where nanotech might take 20 turns as it is on marathon where it takes 90. absolute costs don't make a difference, the relative costs are the same.

 

[Mesix]

no. bulbing is just as effective on quick where nanotech might take 20 turns as it is on marathon where it takes 90. absolute costs don't make a difference, the relative costs are the same.

In my last game, I teched Nano Tech in 6 turns on quick.

Using early GS for Academies does not mean that you can't use late GS for bulbing as well. When you receive the GS is as important in the strategy.

You can also save Oxford University and the Scientific Revolution social policy for the final three techs. If you throw in 2-3 GS received late in the game, then you can bulb the last 5-6 techs for the late game push without keeping GS around for the whole game.

Think about the benefit of the early GS...especially on Quick speed. 6 become 8 later modified by buildings. That could easily be 5,000 over the game for the earliest Academy built. Now take into account the cumulative effect of getting every technology a little bit earlier through the whole game combined with not paying for maintenance on all those GS.

I think that it feels good to get all those free techs in the late game, but I am not convinced that it is better to NEVER build an Academy. I especially think that building a few early Academies becomes a more viable strategic option on faster game speeds (and probably easier difficulties as well).

 

[Mesix]

GE on the other hand...I can't think of a situation where I would do anything but rush a wonder with a GE. The tile improvement is just not that great compared to the benefit of getting a wonder. Late in the game (if all wonders have been built) I would probably burn a GE for a GA and not build the tile improvement.

 

[vexing]

GE on the other hand...I can't think of a situation where I would do anything but rush a wonder with a GE. The tile improvement is just not that great compared to the benefit of getting a wonder.

on quick i was able to build the porcelain tower in just 5 turns because i had a manufactory

6 become 8 later modified by buildings. That could easily be 5,000 over the game for the earliest Academy built.

your games are lasting a lot longer than they need to, probably because you're planting instead of bulbing. check earlier in the thread, i did an analysis of a culture game where i could have planted the GS from porcelain tower or used it to bulb mass media, the numbers always favor bulbing, generally by at least 2x more beakers for late game techs.

 

[Mesix]

Mass Media is already a pretty late game tech.

I am talking about building an Academy before getting Education. If you manage a couple of early GS wonders (Great Library, Oracle) in the same city (not likely on Deity but easy on King or below), then it is entirely feasible that you could get your first GS in the Classical Era. With Babylon, the free GS at Writing is a no brainer. Generally I build Academies up to the Renaissance Era and then start bulbing or keeping GS for bulbing later. A mixed strategy approach if you like.

I played a multiplayer cooperative gave with my brother this past weekend. I had a city specialized for GE and cranked out wonders while he had a city specialized for GS and cranked out units for war mongering. He had five GS settled before we reached Astronomy which helped our technology level much more than bulbing five early techs would have. We were going for a domination VC and finished the game before reaching Gunpowder so we never reached the coveted Future Era techs that you are talking about saving GS to bulb.

My point is that the use of GS is not a canned always use this approach. It is a choice based on gaming style, situation, and settings. There are times when it is better to save for bulbing (like a science VC) and times when an Academy is more suitable.

 

[vexing]

He had five GS settled before we reached Astronomy which helped our technology level much more than bulbing five early techs would have.

you could have sped up your victory quite a bit by bulbing any superior domination tech path, like 3 bulbs for rifles or two for cannons. the fact that there was time to have 5 scientists before you got to astronomy is really indicative of how little science academies produce.

the babylon writing academy is an exception - it can be used to open up a really early steel or such, but an academy generally will put you in a better position later game. the relative gains so early are huge; +6 at turn 20 is a lot more significant than turn 100.

 

[Mesix]

Actually, the Babylon free GS can be used to bulb Steel if you time the GL right. Beeline Writing, and then tech to Iron Working while building the GL. Use the free tech from the GL and the free GS from Writing for Metal Casting and Steel. You will have Long Swordsmen to punish your neighbors while they are still in the Ancient to Early Classical era. For an early Domination VC this is a good use of a bulb. If you are going for a longer game, then the Academy is superior.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Actually, the Babylon free GS can be used to bulb Steel if you time the GL right. Beeline Writing, and then tech to Iron Working while building the GL. Use the free tech from the GL and the free GS from Writing for Metal Casting and Steel. You will have Long Swordsmen to punish your neighbors while they are still in the Ancient to Early Classical era. For an early Domination VC this is a good use of a bulb. If you are going for a longer game, then the Academy is superior.

Isn't Machinery a more reasonable choice for Babylon? Bowmen rush is still valid, right? Or were they nerfed lately too?

 

[binhthuy71]

Isn't Machinery a more reasonable choice for Babylon? Bowmen rush is still valid, right? Or were they nerfed lately too?

The Bowman still has some buffs over the Archer. Bowman has 6 Combat Strength (More resistant to Melee attacks) versus 4 Combat Strength for the Archer. The Bowman also has a Ranged Strength of 8 versus 6 for the Archer. Because neither buff is the result of Promotions I'm not sure that they'd carry over when the Bowman is upgraded to Crossbow.

I'm in the process of playing out a game with each Civ's UU (At Prince, Quick) to see exactly which buffs carry forward when that unit is upgraded. Hopefully, they won't issue another patch before I finish.