Adding More Fair Challenge To Japanatica

[Provolution]

I think some of you people agree with me, that after the wonder conquests and succesful Iroquois campaign, the game has turned to easy.
We need to add more challenge, without undermining our strategy creativity and problem solving skills. We are certain to win this game with such a vast probability that it is not even fun to play it if we do not do the following:

1. In line with what Japan did after WW2, Japan returned numerous slave workers to Korea and china, of which some included war prostitutes. I am amazed there is no continous slight reputation hit for keeping foreign workers.

This means, return 12 Romans to little Rome or what is left, return 6 Babylonians
to Babylon, 8 Zulus to Zululand and 2-3 Indian workers to Iroqouis.

2. Only fight wars as they are planned by the population in polls, discussions, doctrines and pre-prepared discussions.

3. Only allow ourself to switch to Republic when we reach a specific technology, I recommend Nationalism in order to reflect the Meiji Restoration

4. Reduce the number of wonders we compete for in each era to 1 or 2.

5. Do not cripple nations completely, but hit them strategically

6. Support minor nations with foreign aid and guarantees

7. Research technologies that gives us tactical, but not strategic advantages, since we already lead the science race

8. Introduce local vs federal politics in Japanatica in order to make us realistically more inefficient, I underestimated the power of many humans to organize against a dumb AI, even boring Embryonism is not a real liability here.

9. Develop difficult criteria and rules for pivotal game actions, so we need to organize smartly to win those

10. Develop criteria and rules for which kind of infrastructure we can build.

 

[Cyc]

I can see freeing the slaves (returning the Workers), and I think number 2 is a given. I don't agree with number three, as I believe we should switch to Democracy soon. Self limiting ourselves on Wonders will not challenge us more, just deprive us of the glory of Wonders. I can't see how NOT building Wonders is going to stir up any kind of a challenge inside us. Maybe more boredom. If you are already bored with the game because you know we'll win, why attack any nation with strategic strikes? Just play a defensive game and leave the losers alone so they can grow and become a threat (#5). I see no problem with aiding other nations. I can't see supressing Science either. Give 8, 9, and 10 a shot. See what happens. But this crap about supressing the Culture and Science is just that. Cutting off a finger or two to make us type slower might help the AI, and would be an idea equal to those two. It's rediculous.

 

[Civman2004]

If we really want a challenge we should give a heap of cities to China

 

[Ashburnham]

I can see freeing the slaves (returning the Workers), and I think number 2 is a given. I don't agree with number three, as I believe we should switch to Democracy soon. Self limiting ourselves on Wonders will not challenge us more, just deprive us of the glory of Wonders. I can't see how NOT building Wonders is going to stir up any kind of a challenge inside us. Maybe more boredom. If you are already bored with the game because you know we'll win, why attack any nation with strategic strikes? Just play a defensive game and leave the losers alone so they can grow and become a threat (#5). I see no problem with aiding other nations. I can't see supressing Science either. Give 8, 9, and 10 a shot. See what happens. But this crap about supressing the Culture and Science is just that. Cutting off a finger or two to make us type slower might help the AI, and would be an idea equal to those two. It's rediculous.

I couldn't agree more, Cyc. It's extremely frustrating to listen to warhawks suggest conquering entire civilizations, building up a super-advanced military, and planning out wars in detail; and then have to listen to them complain that building Wonders makes the game "too easy".

 

[Provolution]

Well, I am not against wonders, we should probably not try to get all of them at once.
I am pro wonders.

 

[Provolution]

1. In line with what Japan did after WW2, Japan returned numerous slave workers to Korea and china, of which some included war prostitutes. I am amazed there is no continous slight reputation hit for keeping foreign workers.

This means, return 12 Romans to little Rome or what is left, return 6 Babylonians
to Babylon, 8 Zulus to Zululand and 2-3 Indian workers to Iroqouis.

Proposal, we celebrate our industrial age with a reform setting all the foreign serfs free. This has happened before in history, and should be done here as well in the name of honor of Japanatica. We may even get better goodwill of these nations.

2. Only fight wars as they are planned by the population in polls, discussions, doctrines and pre-prepared discussions.

We need to develop tougher war criteria and operational criteria, this means an end to cookiecutter units and mass rushes and more smart use of less units.

3. Only allow ourself to switch to Republic when we reach a specific technology, I recommend Nationalism in order to reflect the Meiji Restoration

Let us poll Despotism vs Feudalism vs Monarchy vs Republic vs Democracy

4. Reduce the number of wonders we compete for in each era to 1 or 2.

Go ahead, build as many wonders as you want, just assure the competition at least can compete with us in creating them.

5. Do not cripple nations completely, but hit them strategically

This means more complex operations requiring more planning/cooperation

6. Support minor nations with foreign aid and guarantees

Let FA and TA figure this out.

7. Research technologies that gives us tactical, but not strategic advantages, since we already lead the science race

Forget this

8. Introduce local vs federal politics in Japanatica in order to make us realistically more inefficient, I underestimated the power of many humans to organize against a dumb AI, even boring Embryonism is not a real liability here.

The game need local success criteria that may harm federal success criteria, what if we said corruption money was pocketed by local players and so on.
The DG needs a subgame where local is pitted against federal, and this should be written in to create more suspense.

9. Develop difficult criteria and rules for pivotal game actions, so we need to organize smartly to win those

A bit late to do this now, but certainly a way to deal with DG6, in order to promote cooperation and teamwork. Any ideas for Term IV-VI ?

10. Develop criteria and rules for which kind of infrastructure we can build.

First, put a cap on how many workers we have, so prioritization counts more.

 

[Nobody]

Heres my 10 New Zealand cents on your ten point, but alot of much smarter people than me have already said there bits so most of what i write will be repeating.

1. In line with what Japan did after WW2, Japan returned numerous slave workers to Korea and china, of which some included war prostitutes. I am amazed there is no continous slight reputation hit for keeping foreign workers.

If this is to make the game more challenging then ok, but if just to do the Right thing then might i propose that insted of sending them to their former goverment we add these slaves to citys that orignally belonged to them.

My reasoning for this is that there is more romans in our country than theres. We control rome it would be better to settle them in there homeland than in northen france.

As for the Iroquios it is even more clear these people worship the land and to send them away from spiritual homes would be even worse than their current slavery. We are currently at war with the iroquios and who knows what will be left of their country when we make peace. They would rather go back to the warm northen iroquios cities than the icey cold ones that they will have left Or even worse than the ice to babylon.


As far as the Babyloinians and the Zulus are concerned we should send these people who to there people.

2. Only fight wars as they are planned by the population in polls, discussions, doctrines and pre-prepared discussions.

I agree this will only improve our readyness. But once these doctrines are inplace and we are ready to respond to any attack and if we need to go to war. So that if the people decide that we need to launch a war, then the military is easily deployed or atleast organised. If we do decided to go to war (i dont know say america is the only nation with coal.) we need alot of discussion and planing. And doctrines are important so that if we are attacked and do not have time for long planing stages our military is ready to defend us.

3. Only allow ourself to switch to Republic when we reach a specific technology, I recommend Nationalism in order to reflect the Meiji Restoration

I think we should have a poll of which goverment we want to be listing all goverments. @ provolution there is no feudalism only communism.

4. Reduce the number of wonders we compete for in each era to 1 or 2.

Wonders are great, we need more not less.

5. Do not cripple nations completely, but hit them strategically

I think that the way we attack a nation should vary depending to the situtation. We should not just write down in doctrine that we should not fight a war in one spicific way, for example if we were to go to war with France or zulu i think we should put large armys in the field and attack then in the normal way until we make peace. If we were to go to war to grab resources in america then we should just attack with a fast small force to grab the cities we need and any surrounding cities to make a defenciable area then we should stop our advance. If china was to sign a military allaince against us with the iroquios then we could use of our navy to defend us in a phoney war. If we were to support the aztecs in a china with china, then we could send our special forces to conduct gurilar warfare against the invading chinese. I am not saying any of these situations are likey iam just saying that i dont think writing laws to say we have to fight wars in only one way.

6. Support minor nations with foreign aid and guarantees

Yes, depending on our current relationship with both nations. If we do support a small nation against a large then we could even send our Special Forces to take part in the resistance.

7. Research technologies that gives us tactical, but not strategic advantages, since we already lead the science race

No i dont think limiting the science is a good idea.

8. Introduce local vs federal politics in Japanatica in order to make us realistically more inefficient, I underestimated the power of many humans to organize against a dumb AI, even boring Embryonism is not a real liability here.

im not sure if their is enough players in the game to make something like this work, as it is there is already noncontested elections. Also i dont even know what "Embryonism" is can someone tell me what it really means.

9. Develop difficult criteria and rules for pivotal game actions, so we need to organize smartly to win those

and

10. Develop criteria and rules for which kind of infrastructure we can build.

I dont know, what ever floats you guys boat.

 

[snipelfritz]

Ok, ok, everybody, I got an idea. If you all want a challenge here it is, the ultimate challange. We declare war on everyone. Everyone in the world. No more of this silly pick 'em off one by one nonsence. We should start a full scale, everybody's in it, World War of our own conquest. It'd be the ultimate challenge. Us vs. Everyone Else. We will either be absolutely victorious, or we die trying. No backing down, we fight to our own death. We take over the World.

Remember, you said you wanted a challenge.

 

[MOTH]

I more or less agree with Cyc. IE: I agree with all of Provolution's points except for numbers 4 and 7.

After much thought I have come to the conclusion that pushing ourselves to the fastest science pace possible and building every wonder possible is the best way in which to make the game more challenging. My main reasoning on these are:

Science Pace: A faster pace on our part means quicker research for the AIs in catching up. Once we get to the space race then the competition will really heat up as we will need to keep the AI from launching their SS. Lets see how many 'future techs' we can research.

Wonders: If we can build the wonders before the AI get the techs then we will keep the AI civs from wasting shields on wonders. This will help fuel the happiness and tech pace of the AI cities. This will once again come into play once the modern era hits as the AI will have resources for Armour and other units and we will be building wonders.

 

[Sir Donald III]

1. In line with what Japan did after WW2, Japan returned numerous slave workers to Korea and china, of which some included war prostitutes. I am amazed there is no continous slight reputation hit for keeping foreign workers.

This means, return 12 Romans to little Rome or what is left, return 6 Babylonians
to Babylon, 8 Zulus to Zululand and 2-3 Indian workers to Iroqouis.

Where did you get the 8 Zulu Number? We have only 1 Zulu, and I'm pondering merging him anyway.

Nobody has a point about Rome and Iroqua. Perhaps I'll only have them work the Eastern Provinces, and then MAYBE merge them. (But 12 is a nice round number, multiple of both 4 and 3, so...)

For the Babylonians, Hm... not sure yet. Check after next TC... (We might go to war with them again anyway... which leads to...)

2. Only fight wars as they are planned by the population in polls, discussions, doctrines and pre-prepared discussions.

Nice point.

3. Only allow ourself to switch to Republic when we reach a specific technology, I recommend Nationalism in order to reflect the Meiji Restoration

I'd rather change with Communism, as an anarchy there keeps Science flowing. (Though not Happiness or Taxes) But that shouldn't be meant as a change to Communism. Quite the opposite actually.

4. Reduce the number of wonders we compete for in each era to 1 or 2.

Does that mean we should give back Salamanca? (well... if we do at least we stopped the 20K.)

5. Do not cripple nations completely, but hit them strategically

Er... factor that with #2.

6. Support minor nations with foreign aid and guarantees

Actually a good idea. I'd sooner give Rome Education than more Workers than a Despotism could support. Heck, I was honestly considering it.


#7 was recanted.

8. Introduce local vs federal politics in Japanatica in order to make us realistically more inefficient, I underestimated the power of many humans to organize against a dumb AI, even boring Embryonism is not a real liability here.

Er.. the Corruption mechanic already takes care of that in part... or do you mean the Governors should be polling Build Queues now? And who should vote per Province?

9. Develop difficult criteria and rules for pivotal game actions, so we need to organize smartly to win those

Two words: Diplomatic Victory.

Or are you secretly favoring the Abstainians?

10. Develop criteria and rules for which kind of infrastructure we can build.

Pollution. Base 24. Limiting our workers would destroy our ability to produce infrastructure once the factories do their "work".

 

[blackheart]

Could you elaborate on #5 and #8? What is considered crippling? Taking their capital? As for #8, we pit governors against ministers or what?

If we really want a harder game, amp up the difficulty. Not much we can do to make the game more challenging on monarchy without making it dull.

 

[Provolution]

We are not making it dull, Monarchy was too low. We really need a challenging game, but we do that through "real life" ethical decisions. There seems to be broad support for 8 of the alternatives. Freeing foreign workers is the most tangible and quick solution.