Adolf Hitler

[Afforess]

I have to disagree here, the atomic bomb was unnecessary. Japan was on the verge of surrender at that point, mainly due to Russia's entry into the Pacific Theater (a major event which is overlooked in the atomic bomb debate); the Japanese were afraid that Russia would invade the mainland and execute the emperor. With Russia's entry into Pacific Theater, an American invasion of Japan would not happen, we would have let Stalin sacrifice an untold number of his men and massacre an untold unmber of Japanese like it was Eastern Europe.

Really? Wikipedia disagrees.

 

[generalstaff]

No no no, peek oil will be the collapse of USA and it's transformation into western USSR...and USSR problem was that people have had enough of all the lies, corruption, deaths, intimidation and living in terror and an never ending prison/police state.

Peek Oil is just a made up theory which allows OPEC to cash in on artificial scarcity.

The police state in the US will be brought in the name of stopping terror or a (non-deadly) disease, depending if it is a Republican or Democrat in power. H1N1, its the new Al Qaeda.

 

[generalstaff]

Really? Wikipedia disagrees.

Wikipedia has a lot of bull$hi+ in it. It is only good for copy+pasting leaderhead bios and its "this date in history" feature.

 

[Afforess]

Wikipedia has a lot of bull$hi+ in it. It is only good for copy+pasting leaderhead bios and its "this date in history" feature.

I've found it fairly factual. It's a much better source then CNN, ABC, Fox, NBC, or any other American news source... Have you seen the study that compared it to Encylopedia Britannica, and found while it had a few more errors, the length of content was 3x longer than Britannica?

 

[cr0ws]

Peek Oil is just a made up theory which allows OPEC to cash in on artificial scarcity.

The police state in the US will be brought in the name of stopping terror or a (non-deadly) disease, depending if it is a Republican or Democrat in power. H1N1, its the new Al Qaeda.

And why do you think USA is setting up military bases in Columbia today...Near oil rich Venezualia...all the while launching an aggressive smear campaign against Chavez? Since Iraq looks like is a doomed scenario...maybe they'll be better luck in Venezualia?

 

[Lord Brooks]

... However, it should be noted that the atomic bombing of Hiroshima was initially thought to be another firebombing (a much more destructive practice, but for some reason is not as controversial) by the Japanese government at the time. ...

here is something in relation to the bombing of Tokyo which fits in nicely with what generalstaff was saying...

335 B-29s took off to raid on the night of 9–10 March, with 279 of them dropping around 1,700 tons of bombs.

Fourteen B-29s were lost. Approximately 16 square miles (41 km²) of the city were destroyed and some 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the resulting firestorm, more than the immediate deaths of either the Hiroshima or Nagasaki atomic bombs.

The US Strategic Bombing Survey later estimated that nearly 88,000 people died in this one raid, 41,000 were injured, and over a million residents lost their homes. The Tokyo Fire Department estimated a higher toll: 97,000 killed and 125,000 wounded.

So the US was already capabale and willing to kill roughly similar amounts of civilians in conventional bombing raids, the benefit of the atom bomb however was that it was one plane and one bomb, a demonstration of US power to its challengers such as the USSR and a demonstration of US technological knowhow all of which was what I was suggesting when I said Afforess hit the nail on the head when he mentioned the dollar cost. The amount of people killed by the A-Bomb's is largely irrelevant when it comes down to $'s.

 

[cr0ws]

Wikipedia has a lot of bull$hi+ in it. It is only good for copy+pasting leaderhead bios and its "this date in history" feature.

I agree, wikipedia is a social experiment, an encyclopedia which any troll can alter has very little credibility.

 

[SaintRaw]

Nope. We would have, that's why America waited a couple of days to see.

After six months of intense strategic fire-bombing of 67 Japanese cities the Hirohito regime ignored an ultimatum given by the Potsdam Declaration. By executive order of President Harry S. Truman the U.S. dropped the nuclear weapon Little Boy on the city of Hiroshima on Monday, August 6, 1945,[1] [2] followed by the detonation of the bomb Fat Man over Nagasaki on August 9. These are the only attacks with nuclear weapons in the history of warfare.[3]

I do not know what the Japanese knew about the nuclear bombs but I think that the US weren't fully aware of the consequences yet, feels like a 'playtest' to me..

I can only imagine the 'proud' japanese wouldn't give in to the US just yet.. Giving them more time could've prevented the 'Fat Man' from being used. Since the effects of fallout & radiation aren't visable in a day..

Did they even know that this was a fairly different bombing?
I just think it was too fast and therefore see the second nuke as unneccesary.

 

[Afforess]

I agree, wikipedia is a social experiment, an encyclopedia which any troll can alter has very little credibility.

I think you will find it a might tougher than that. Articles that are likely to be trolled are all protected. Seriously, try to troll a few articles, right now. Your changes won't last 15 minutes.

 

[generalstaff]

I've found it fairly factual. It's a much better source then CNN, ABC, Fox, NBC, or any other American news source... Have you seen the study that compared it to Encylopedia Britannica, and found while it had a few more errors, the length of content was 3x longer than Britannica?

I have not seen it compared to Britannica, however, comparing it to American cable news makes me question its credibility even more.

And why do you think USA is setting up military bases in Columbia today...Near oil rich Venezualia...all the while launching an aggressive smear campaign against Chavez? Since Iraq looks like is a doomed scenario...maybe they'll be better luck in Venezualia?

I thought the point of the Iraq War was not disable a large supply of oil to create artificial scarcity so Bush's pals, the Saudis, could rake in the cash for a while (not to mentioning the corruption with reconstruction). I also thought that the campaign against Chavez had more to due with him being a symbol of resisting US imperialism in Latin America. I knew that Black Water had contracts in Colombia for some time and that we have been funding the Colombia government and the paramilitaries for decades (gotta love reading about the Cold War), but I did now know we were expanding our military bases there (I assumed we already had bases there, we have bases everywhere in the world).

 

[cr0ws]

I do not know what the Japanese knew about the nuclear bombs but I think that the US weren't fully aware of the consequences yet, feels like a 'playtest' to me..

I can only imagine the 'proud' japanese wouldn't give in to the US just yet.. Giving them more time could've prevented the 'Fat Man' from being used. Since the effects of fallout & radiation aren't visable in a day..

Did they even know that this was a fairly different bombing?
I just think it was too fast and therefore see the second nuke as unneccesary.

The pentagon is ran by war mongering, self-profiteering criminals (mafia) who have very little respect for human life, truth, ethics or honor and rarely think twice before they act. They have created many GIGANTIC lies throughout history to start wars. Lies just to exploit other people's lands and their resources like Vietnam. Lies who's victims were not only their designated enemies but also the people they were sworn in to protect and those who serve them.

Do you know what depleted uranium is? It's the weapon that keeps on killing! It gives ammunition penetrating power and leverage in a battlefield at the expense of the environment of course (and obviously those in close contact with these munitions). I suggest you do some research if you want more detailed info. Uranium has a half life of 4.5 billion years, so DU released into the environment will be a hazard for unimaginable timescales. It was used in the 1991 Gulf War, in the 2003 Iraq War, and also in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 1990s and during the NATO war with Serbia in 1999. US not only manufactures this ammunition but also sells it to other countries like Saudi Arabia,Israel,India and Kuwait. Only the US and the UK are known to have fired it in warfare though.

 

[Crusis]

Wow... this thread has really strayed. It's like a History mosh pit. I know there are some of you that disregard Wikipedia, but you can simply disregard my post then. Wikipedia is very accurate when researching pointed historical data. It doesn't hurt to already have learned the information and only be utilizing Wiki to share the information. I'm in my mid-40s, and have been reading history for 35+ years. A lot of information I have in my head, unfortunately, I cannot point to a specific book. When I was really young, I thought the Nazis had cool uniforms and thought it would have been cool if they had won. My age was probably in single digits. Too young to seriously comprehend the evil that the Germans propagated on themselves and the world.

ME-262

http://www.nicolastrudgianprints.com/me262.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262

T-34

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

http://www.2worldwar2.com/t-34-tank.htm

The London Blitz

Beginning on September 7, 1940, and for a total of 57 consecutive nights, London was bombed. The decision to wage a massive bombing campaign against London and other English cities would prove to be one of the most fateful of the war. Up to that point, the Luftwaffe had targeted Royal Air Force airfields and support installations and had nearly destroyed the entire British air defense system. Switching to an all-out attack on British cities gave RAF Fighter Command a desperately needed break and the opportunity to rebuild damaged airfields, train new pilots and repair aircraft. "It was," Churchill later wrote, "therefore with a sense of relief that Fighter Command felt the German attack turn on to London..."

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/about-blitz.htm

Chemical V2s

Someone stated that the Brits were Aryans and therefore were given special status so not gassed. Ludicrous argument, no offense. We're not going to gas the Brits, but we are going to bomb their capital into dust and burn countless numbers of them alive. Silliness. If your goal is to terrorize, you use Chemical weapons especially with WWI trenches being a recent memory.

German/Japan alliance

This is wholly my opinion, although one shared by others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_powers

This is a list of the Axis powers, it is my opinion that Germany wanted Japan to open up a second front on Russia, but that Japan saw little advantage in that since what it needed was oil.

Benito Mussolini

http://history.sandiego.edu/GEN/WW2Timeline/Prelude05.html

Again, that Benito should have been killed and replaced with a competent military governor is my opinion. Benito was a fairly obtuse man, and a competent general loyal to Germany would have been a much better option for Hitler, and one that would have allowed for Italy to be a lower maintenance problem on Germany's plate.

Building a Baltic Fleet

The ships of the German Atlantic forces were just a waste of money other than the U-boats. Resources just pissed away. For the same money you could easily have built shore batteries at strategic coastal locations with greater range than any ship based gun, as well as the accuracy of stable ground.

The Bizmarck cost nearly 200M Reichmarks to build, a sum which would have allowed you to build a LOT of tanks. More accurately, the Panzer III cost 96K RM, the Panzer IV aus G cost 176K RM, so the Bizmarck could have been 2000 Panzer IIIs, or 1100 Panzer IVGs. Since the Bizmarck basically went to sea and got blown up two years later in the 'breakout to the Atlantic'. Since Europe was a land war, I think a thousand tanks would have been more useful. If the entire German navy had been U-boats, all the effort used to design the other fleet ships could have been directed toward U-boat improvement. In the Pacific, with island warfare, the air craft carrier was the ship of the future. In the Atlantic, in my opinion and considering the supply lines from America to Europe, submarines could have ruled the day.

Hitler the micromanager

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Third-Reich-at-War/Richard-J-Evans/e/9781594202063

This book is a good source of information on the paranoia driven micromanagement of the military by Hitler. The author shares my point of view that the invasion of Russia was the downfall of Hitler and the Third Reich.

E=mc2

http://www.unmuseum.org/nbomb.htm

Here is a pretty good synopsis of the various ideas why Germany didn't build the bomb. Shortsightedness is my personal favorite, which leads me back to my original post. I still think a bomb off of London in the Channel would have ended European resistance to the Nazi efforts.

German weapon systems that sucked

I've accepted that I was wrong on this one, although a prototype should be enough to show the limitations of a weapon. The King Tiger prototype should have been driven into a field, sunk into the Earth, and the program abandoned. The prototype could have been melted down and used to build 4 Tigers. Anytime research is done, however, you're going to have some turds and some roses.

External enemy

I think the logic regarding my statement of an external enemy is obvious. You don't sacrifice your own population if you plan on building armies. Clearly it is debatable, but I don't really see why.


I don't think we should be discussing issues of 70 years ago and disparaging our countries today. Some of you are less fond of particular groups than others, some of you are objective, some are not. The fact is that History is history, and immutable except through lying. There are too many lies in our world, regarding history and regarding our daily lives. Anyone really interested in History will try to see through these lies, distortions, and misrepresentations to find the truth of what happened. Such a person will put aside national pride, religious bias, and personal feelings to look for what really happened, and in doing so might find that "AHA!" moment.

Someone touted the Autobahn as a Hitler good. It was built with slave labor.

Someone said Stalin didn't know. Part of America just spent 8 years hating a leader for 'not knowing and stupidity' despite that leader having higher collegiate grades than Al Gore who is held up by that same part as a savior of humanity. Al Gore stands to be the first eco-billionaire. A potential outside motivator for his beliefs or simply a by-product? Only history will tell.

History is about truth, about taking the time to analyze what you're saying, and about what some poked me for, providing at least some data to back up what you say. I've tried to do a bit of that here, but since this isn't a REAL research paper I've only put about an hour of effort into it.

________________________________________________________

Books:

Jane's fighting aircraft of WWII

Sea Power a modern illustrated military history

Panzer: The illustrated history of German armour in WWII

USS Indianapolis (CA-35) Only 317 Survived: written by the survivors

Amazon list: http://www.amazon.com/Best-Real-History-World-War-Books/lm/3SFIZY45M35EE

 

[Afforess]

I have not seen it compared to Britannica, however, comparing it to American cable news makes me question its credibility even more.

Why? American news sources are jokes. Every single one is owned by a political party. If you want the news BBC is what you want. Sad really, coming from a native born American.

I thought the point of the Iraq War was not disable a large supply of oil to create artificial scarcity so Bush's pals, the Saudis, could rake in the cash for a while (not to mentioning the corruption with reconstruction). I also thought that the campaign against Chavez had more to due with him being a symbol of resisting US imperialism in Latin America. I knew that Black Water had contracts in Colombia for some time and that we have been funding the Colombia government and the paramilitaries for decades (gotta love reading about the Cold War), but I did now know we were expanding our military bases there (I assumed we already had bases there, we have bases everywhere in the world).

I agree. I tend to not believe Cr0ws and the other conspiracy theorists. Mostly, for the wrong reasons.

Spoiler :

It's not the lack of evidence that makes me disbelieve conspiracies, but the ramifications if proven true. I guess it says a lot about me, but I would much rather live in la-la land than the real world. But it's okay, they know me here.

The pentagon is ran by war mongering, self-profiteering criminals (mafia) who have very little respect for human life, truth, ethics or honor and rarely think twice before they act. They have created many GIGANTIC lies throughout history to start wars. Lies just to exploit other people's lands and their resources like Vietnam. Lies who's victims were not only their designated enemies but also the people they were sworn in to protect and those who serve them.

Do you know what depleted uranium is? It's the weapon that keeps on killing! It gives ammunition penetrating power and leverage in a battlefield at the expense of the environment of course (and obviously those in close contact with these munitions). I suggest you do some research if you want more detailed info. Uranium has a half life of 4.5 billion years, so DU released into the environment will be a hazard for unimaginable timescales. It was used in the 1991 Gulf War, in the 2003 Iraq War, and also in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 1990s and during the NATO war with Serbia in 1999. US not only manufactures this ammunition but also sells it to other countries like Saudi Arabia,Israel,India and Kuwait. Only the US and the UK are known to have fired it in warfare though.

Wait, since when has the US used uranium as a weapon, other than in WWII?

Wow... this thread has really strayed. It's like a History mosh pit.

I like it that way. I'm probably encouraging it to some extent.

I know there are some of you that disregard Wikipedia, but you can simply disregard my post then. Wikipedia is very accurate when researching pointed historical data.

Glad to have another Wiki supporter.

It doesn't hurt to already have learned the information and only be utilizing Wiki to share the information. I'm in my mid-40s, and have been reading history for 35+ years. A lot of information I have in my head, unfortunately, I cannot point to a specific book.

I know that feeling exactly. Stupid History channel documentaries...

When I was really young, I thought the Nazis had cool uniforms and thought it would have been cool if they had won. My age was probably in single digits. Too young to seriously comprehend the evil that the Germans propagated on themselves and the world.

Don't all little boys have exactly the same thoughts? I had plans for conquering the world as early as third grade.

Oh, the plans were all Dr.Evil-esque, but I had them...

I don't think we should be discussing issues of 70 years ago and disparaging our countries today. Some of you are less fond of particular groups than others, some of you are objective, some are not. The fact is that History is history, and immutable except through lying. There are too many lies in our world, regarding history and regarding our daily lives. Anyone really interested in History will try to see through these lies, distortions, and misrepresentations to find the truth of what happened. Such a person will put aside national pride, religious bias, and personal feelings to look for what really happened, and in doing so might find that "AHA!" moment.

I agree here. It would be like killing someone's great great grandson for something a family member did a long time ago. Things change with time, countries behave very differently over time.

Someone said Stalin didn't know. Part of America just spent 8 years hating a leader for 'not knowing and stupidity' despite that leader having higher collegiate grades than Al Gore who is held up by that same part as a savior of humanity.

You speak of Bush Derangement Syndrome. I think the way most Americans, and the world treated Bush was appalling. Sure, he made is fair share of mistakes, but should we actively undermine our leaders in such an appalling and disgraceful manor? It shows poor taste, a lack wit, and general stupidity.

Al Gore stands to be the first eco-billionaire. A potential outside motivator for his beliefs or simply a by-product? Only history will tell.

History will likely be honest, brutally so, with Al Gore. Every person's deeds will have to face a day of reckoning. His are worse than most.

 

[Master176281]

I agree, wikipedia is a social experiment, an encyclopedia which any troll can alter has very little credibility.

Well said, there is a reason why it is not allowed to use wikipedia in scientific publications.

One simple reason is that it is country (language related). You can compare similar articles in different languages and the message can differ quite a lot. And even if it is a good source for a quick insight in a subject it should not been used to form someone's opinion.

 

[SaintRaw]

I agree. I tend to not believe Cr0ws and the other conspiracy theorists. Mostly, for the wrong reasons.

Spoiler :

It's not the lack of evidence that makes me disbelieve conspiracies, but the ramifications if proven true. I guess it says a lot about me, but I would much rather live in la-la land than the real world. But it's okay, they know me here.

Mmm, I was already thinking you were a 'pro-american' (no offense).
Cr0ws seems to by rather anti-american (no offense either..)

I dislike discussions with people having a clear prejudice.
History should be looked upon with rationality.
Not that the arguments used in this thread aren't good though..

Everyone should be carefull what to believe, may it be the 'goody goody' speeches of let's say bush, may it be the conspiracy theorists.
Always keep in mind that humans aren't rational, which is the big problem here.

As I said, having hitler as a leaderhead is a matter of taste. Some players have deeper sense of dislike/hatred towards the crimes he comitted that can't be accepted.
It's both a virtue and a weakness of humanity. DRJ has this 'problem' and I can't blame him.

I can ramble on about my vision on philosophy but let's not do that!
This post is meant as completly objective and not to step on anyones toes.

 

[Afforess]

Mmm, I was already thinking you were a 'pro-american' (no offense).

Of course I have a bias. I just let everyone know by my Location. I just tend to ignore conspiracy theories. They are impossible to definitivly prove, and have too many ramifications. Best to live in the real* world.

Some players have deeper sense of dislike/hatred towards the crimes he comitted that can't be accepted.

Hey, I find that offensive. Are You implying that I care "less" about Hitler's crimes? That is not so. Rather, I simply try to be more rational about the subject.

 

[Master176281]

Mmm, I was already thinking you were a 'pro-american' (no offense).
Cr0ws seems to by rather anti-american (no offense either..)

I dislike discussions with people having a clear prejudice.
History should be looked upon with rationality.
Not that the arguments used in this thread aren't good though..

Everyone should be carefull what to believe, may it be the 'goody goody' speeches of let's say bush, may it be the conspiracy theorists.
Always keep in mind that humans aren't rational, which is the big problem here.

As I said, having hitler as a leaderhead is a matter of taste. Some players have deeper sense of dislike/hatred towards the crimes he comitted that can't be accepted.
It's both a virtue and a weakness of humanity. DRJ has this 'problem' and I can't blame him.

I can ramble on about my vision on philosophy but let's not do that!
This post is meant as completly objective and not to step on anyones toes.

It's quite difficult to find the correct words in such a discussion. But in my opinion you found them.

 

[NBAfan]

Why? American news sources are jokes. Every single one is owned by a political party. If you want the news BBC is what you want. Sad really, coming from a native born American.

The media here is a joke. I get my news from Drudge.

The last thing I will say on Hitler LH is that it is Moduler. If want to play with him then fine. If not then you do not have to and that is fine to.

 

[SaintRaw]

Hey, I find that offensive. Are You implying that I care "less" about Hitler's crimes? That is not so. Rather, I simply try to be more rational about the subject.

I've read your previous posts about Hitler and I agree with you on the Hitler subject.
You say you care about the victims, because you don't approve about the horrors done upon those victims. It's should not be a matter of irrationality if you aren't directly involved.
Like me, you disapprove of the 'evil' done to a lot of people and would help those victims if you could. Problem is, you can't.. What's done is done, you can't fix it.
Caring implies irrationality, and since you can't do anything really to help anybody this irrationality is useless. You should be rational about this, as you say your trying too, and learn the lessons history 'can' teach us.
I'm truly not trying to offend anyone but if you are weak-hearted then I can't even be sorry, cause I say what I think is correct. Hate me for being a bit anti-social or insensitive.. I'd like to be that instead of using feelings and emotions as arguments.

This is no attack, this is merely an more in-depth post concerning the statement I made.

Acceptance is the way to go, you can't go forward if you don't accept the past, though this can be very hard.

Just to be clear, I feel for the victims, though I can't till something similar happens to me. Something most people won't want me to experience. I disapprove of all the crimes and all the other unjust* 'things' Hitler committed during his regime and maybe more in his lifetime.

*Unjust as in what I find intolerable.

I'm Dutch, nearly 21 and I don't have a connection with WW2, except for the defensive bunkers Germany made where I used to play warfare games as most of you civilization gamers did

 

[DRJ]

To say some are pro-american and some are anti-american is misleading. I bet most of the conspriracy theorists are pro-america - it's just another america they have in mind, one with a less secretive government, a lesser military-industrial-complex, one that shows a respectful attitude towards the non-american - the human in everyone in general. There is not something like an "illegal" human!

The ones who are called pro-american are "pro-" by euphemistic think-tank-mass-media-superiority-definition.

Of course I have a bias. I just let everyone know by my Location. I just tend to ignore conspiracy theories. They are impossible to definitivly prove, and have too many ramifications. Best to live in the real* world.

Don't know, since I read about roman politics, where conspiracies were steady and since I know the distribution of wealth in the world and the centers of power I am pretty sure there are some dark shadows falling upon us from that direction and the way it is executed is by conspiracy, more or less;
for an example in in our younger history read about the 1913' bankiers secret meeting when deciding to found the FED...and there is a Bilderberger-Conference every year, right? Thats not all made up - there are facts if you know what to look for and where its at (wikileak).

I am at least agnostic when it comes to this. When a new thing happens I can reflect both possibilities (reason of the event, responsibility) and look what is more rational or intrigueing, nevertheless plausible as well. It's often fun, to do so, sometimes scary. But you gotta be open minded, the path of power is a dark, narrow street sometimes... Gotta watch the peoples back.

And @NBA-Fan:
the Drudge-Report is for you, what the Huffington Post is for me I guess... I wouldn't want to change, though.