Advice needed in the middle game

[chopstyx]

Hi there, long time reader, first time post.

I've been playing Civ IV for about 2 months now, and I think I'm getting better. Anyway, I was hoping that some of you might have some advice for me following a game I just finished.

I play on Noble level, usually continents. I started as India, with Ghandi as my leader. Vanilla version, by the way.

I found myself on a largeish continent to start with, shared by Togokawa to my left and Peter to my right. Straight away I founded Buddhism, and fairly early on I decided that this continent wasn't big enough for the 3 of us, especially as I was in the middle. So I amassed a force and attacked Japan. They were completely unprepared and within a few years I had taken 4 of their cities, leaving them with 2, one of which I thought was going to culture switch. This was about 1 AD.

I continued building my culture, building Wonders and founding Taoism & Islam. I still hadn't met anyone else by about 500 AD since I hadn't gone exploring the high seas yet, but Peter was my best mate, having adopted Taoism and being delighted with our trading & lack of war, and things were going well, technology was racing ahead and I had about twice the cities/population/score that Peter did. Japan hung on with their 2 cities, which they eventually expanded to include a further 2 ice cities near the polar cap.

Eventually, everyone came to my country via boat, and I started exploring too. Judging by the scores, I was about 500 ahead of the nearest challengers, Mansa Musu and Isabella. I was more advanced and in a prime position to choose my victory.

I tried appeasing everyone by trading with them, and eventually I changed my religion to 'Free Religion' in order to get rid of the negative "You worship a heathen religion."

Then, despite my power and score I just couldn't stop losing ground to everyone. No-one would trade me technology and eventually everyone became 'cautious' towards me. I could see that Mansa Musu was racing ahead in the techs, and in 1750, Peter, my friend for years, declared war on me. I was far stronger than he was but he had amassed a large border force so I had to spend the next 100 years fending off his attacks, while trying to destroy his infrastructure in his territory. I sued for peace and he declared war a few times, with neither of us having enough of an advantage to take any cities, we basically just wore each other down, destroying tile improvements. During one break from war with Peter I finished Japan by taking their 4 cities.

Around 1850, Mansa Musu had caught up with my 'score' and Isabella wasn't far behind. Isabella then declared war, even though all she did was patrol the seas around my country. Peter declared again to keep me tied up with defending.

Around 1900 Mansa had finished Apollo and I really couldn't see myself getting any type of victory. I was behind in techs, domination/conquest were well out of reach, I wasn't loved enough diplomatically, and even my culture wasn't that good (I had 1 city approaching legendary but the other's weren't even close.)

Eventually I lost the space race to Mansa, finishing third in points.

So really, I need to know: What is wrong with my middle game? I usually always get off to a good start but I need to know how to change that into a strong finish. I nearly always fade off at the end, even if I win the game (I've only ever won SS or points) it's always a close one.

 

[Killroyan]

From what I have been reading is that you were to little agressive and were caught up in a builders syndrome (join anonymous builders NOW). You crippled Toku, which was good, but you left Peter unscratched. You should have handicapped him too by taking 3 or 4 cities of him. In the mid game you should have taken all the remaining russian and japanese cities with a sizeable army.

About the not trading you should check the diploscreen to see why they aren't trading. You could do several things:
1. Send over missionaries to make them convert to buddhism. They were propably hindu which gives a big negative diplo score with the "you have fallen under the sway of another religion" -6 counter or so
2. Give in to some demands to get on their happy side
3. Declare war on a mutual friend
4. Gift them some money
5. Offer them a cheap tech (like CoL for 100 gold or so)
This should ease up your mid game. If you have enough land and enough cottages (which the AI spams like mad) there is no way they can catch up with you.

 

[tuckerthecat]

"I tried appeasing everyone by trading with them."

Well that is a major problem right there, when you try & be friends with everyone you end up being friends with no one, or worse enemies of everyone.

When playing continents I typically beeline for optics so I can be the 1st to meet all the other civs. Dont start trading till you meet all the other civs on a continent. Then you have to decide who you want to be friends with on that continent. Lets say for example Isabella is the points leader & founded hinduism, the next 2 advanced civs are also hindu & pleased with Isabella. There is a 4th civ on the continent is last in score & founded christianity & is annoyed with all the other civs on the continent. What I would typically do is make good trades with civs #2 & #3 this would give you +4 fair trade relations & now you can open borders. If you can now spam enough missonaries that there is more buddhism in their empire than hindu they will convert on their own or by trading them a few techs to do it. Now you have 2 allies on that continent & Isabella lost 2 allies & is now annoyed with the two other biggest civs on her continent.

Dont trade with Isabella or the Christian civ, see if you can bribe the 2nd highest civ to attack Isabella, if they do declare war on Isabella yourself. She doesnt have astronomy yet ( or even optics ) so there is nothing she can do to you. Destroy a few sea resources & eventually she will ask for peace. Now bribe the #3 civ to attack the #4 civ, declare again. You now have 2 solid allies & 2 enemies.

Make sure your 2 new friends arent too succesfull in their wars, you want to make sure that Isabella remains #1 in size on the continent so she would be your opponent in a UN vote.

Peter declared war on you because you racked up all kinds of "trading with worst enemy" hits then changed to free religion so whatever good will you had was lost. If you beeline to optics & convert your new friends by the time Peter meets them they will be the same religion & will also be allies. Now bribe Peter to declare on Isabella.

Also when playing continents I usually find it way too tedious to conquer the entire thing, I usually become friends with the peacefull type civs ( Mansu, Ghandi etc ) & take out all the aggressive civs ( I'm looking at you Monty )

 

[Cam_H]

Posted roughly at the same time as tuckerthe cat!

Hi there, long time reader, first time post.

Hi there! Welcome!

fairly early on I decided that this continent wasn't big enough for the 3 of us, especially as I was in the middle. So I amassed a force and attacked

Correct premise ... but what happened later on?

Peter was my best mate ... Peter, my friend for years, declared war on me.

There's a place for 'triangle diplomacy', but it seems that there was little advantage in leaving Russia alone - it's not as though you were mutually picking on anyone else. Usually there's more to be gained by taking out a rival, particularly a medium-sized one on your continent, than by leaving them. It seems you half-know the answer to the problem ... you feel gassed out after an early war, move your focus on infrastructure, and lose confidence in your capacity to fight a Medieval conflict.

I continued building my culture, building Wonders and founding Taoism & Islam ...

I tried appeasing everyone by trading with them, and eventually I changed my religion to 'Free Religion' in order to get rid of the negative "You worship a heathen religion."

Then, despite my power and score I just couldn't stop losing ground to everyone. No-one would trade me technology and eventually everyone became 'cautious' towards me.

It does seem like a combination of (a.) builder syndrome and (b.) fear of the AI.

Don't become too precious about founding religions or building Wonders (I know - Gandhi is great for building Wonders and founding religions!). 'Great' if you can found a religion or construct one of the more useful Wonders, but bear in mind that there's an opportunity cost.

Don't try to keep everyone happy with you! It doesn't work and it's not in your best interest.

Envisage yourself instead as the 'smart alec' 'school-yard bully'. Your role in life is to make your rivals miserable as you harass them, and bring in a few equally undesirable gang members to pick on them also. Take their lunch money, take their homework, etc. etc. Encourage A.I. fighting. Bribe them to go to war with each other. When Isabella declared on you, Mansa should have been brought into the conflict. A.I. wars slow down their technology pace. You seem to have taken the right approach with Tokugawa, but 'the fight' seemed to have left you after that, where it looks as though you became quite defensive.

Also, I'm not sure if you specialised your cities or not. You should be advancing faster than most of the A.I. tribes as the game progresses.

Hope this helps - and best of luck.

 

[automator]

3. Declare war on a mutual friend

I think he meant mutual enemy, but this is a good strategy. If what happens is a civ who you want better relations with asks you to join in war against a civ on their island (but not yours), going to war is easy. Your new enemy will be busy fighting on their mainland while you can choose not to participate. Since you're not losing units, war weariness shouldn't be a problem. Plus, you get not one, but two bonuses: your buddy gives you a diplomatic bonus for helping in a war (even though you didn't really risk a single unit), and both the buddy and the enemy beat each other senseless, retarding their technology advancement.

 

[chopstyx]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys!

It's amazing how obvious some of it sounds when you read it! I really think city specialization is one are I desperately need to improve though, and as Cam_H says, stop giving the AI too much respect.

I'll let you know how the next game goes. I'm going to try out Alexander and Greece I think...

 

[Cam_H]

Chopstyx,

I'm glad you found that the comments helped.

I was earlier going to suggest that you try Tokugawa next game ... his starting tech's aren't particularly great unless you're addicted to getting Pottery early, but with a Medieval attack-focussed UU he'll probably help you to press on to a second war where you might otherwise have held back. Organised and Aggressive are handy warmongering traits. Maybe even set yourself a "can only win by Conquest or Domination" variant so you don't fall into the "Mr. Nice Guy" predicament?

 

[jwk9]

Chopstyx:

I run into the same kinds of stalls in the middle game, too. Part of my problem is that I'll make a rush and try to knock out a Civ, which slows my tech growth for a while. Then, when the war is over, I'll try to recover a bit before gearing up for the next war. I'll still build war units for defense, but not as intensively as before. Another Civ usually declares war on me by then, thus further slowing down my tech growth.

Anyone have any ideas on how to get out of this vicious cycle? I've also tried just taking a few cities from a Civ, but that only seems to make other Civ's mad, and they attack me. Usually, I've had to go all the way and finish the guy off, which just takes too darn long.

 

[chopstyx]

Good idea Cam_H, I'll start with Tokugawa instead...

Thanks!

jwk9: GLad I'm not the only one!