Advice Needed on a Prince Game

[Tycho]

Hi Tycho. You might want to check out some of the advice from my signature below. Voice of Unreason's Foundation and Empire series might be worth trying, too. I especially like Builder's Bargain, since I have a bad tendency to build a lot.

It looks to me like you war a lot, though. Am I right? Joao really isn't all that close to you; the Russians are definitely too far to fight at this point. Otoh, maybe you could use Joao to get lots of workers?

Ah, same here with the building problem, I typically try to get the Great Wall and build up while I am protected from barbarians. I war mostly in the late game, but since Jao appeared to undefended, I thought that taking him out would be a good idea to eliminate a future rival.

Always post your current save when you report. Starting save should be posted when you start the game.

Hello!
You are putting up some great material to give pointers on here, hope you learn quickly.


I see in a screenshot, that you go with your worker up on a forested hill, and tell them to mine it.
This makes you get the hammers from the forest much later.
If you chop first, and only then mine the naked hill, you will get the hammers from the forest sooner. This is preferable in almost all situations.

Screenshots are abit too much zoomed in. it's difficult to get a idea of what is going on in the surrounding area. Try to zoom out abit more.
Ideally, I want to be able to see at least 9x9 squares. This makes it easier for me to do dotmapping.

When you built your settler, was the warrior waiting for him?
If so, you should have sent the warrior out before he finished, to guard the potential city-spot.

Putting hamburg there was probably a mistake. 1N would probably be better. Closer to capital, possible tile-sharing and more land-tiles and less ocean-tiles.

Keep up the good work!

Ah I see now. Instead of getting the workers to mine and chop at the same time, I should be chopping instead and then sending them back later to start the hammer producing improvements up on the hill tops.

That warrior that went with the Settler was a force of habit really, in Noble games I used to send stacks of protection units with the settler and let it settle first. I guess I have been doing it wrong all of this time.

Thanks krikav, lymond, and Um the Muse! , I'll have some more screenshots out mostly tonight after I tech a few more things and look at a few of the things that Um has provided. Once again, thanks!

 

[krikav]

Ah I see now. Instead of getting the workers to mine and chop at the same time, I should be chopping instead and then sending them back later to start the hammer producing improvements up on the hill tops.

No, you should not sending them back later to start the hammer producing improvements.
You can mine right after you have chopped down the tree.
If you enter a forested hill with your worker, you can either
A) Push the "build mine" button. The worker will then spend 7 turns chopping and mining, and after 7 turns you will get 20 hammers from the forest, and you will have a mine ready.

Or you can do
B) Push the "chop forest" button. And then get 20 hammers after 3 turns.
and THEN push the "build mine" button, and you will get the mine done in 4 more turns.

Same result in B as in A, but you get the 20 hammers from chopping 4 turns earlier, and that is a good thing.

Hope this is clear now.

That warrior that went with the Settler was a force of habit really, in Noble games I used to send stacks of protection units with the settler and let it settle first. I guess I have been doing it wrong all of this time.

Settler has movement 2, warrior has movement 1.
If you send them together, the settler will be slowed down.
If possible, one want to avoid this.

 

[Tycho]

No, you should not sending them back later to start the hammer producing improvements.
You can mine right after you have chopped down the tree.
If you enter a forested hill with your worker, you can either
A) Push the "build mine" button. The worker will then spend 7 turns chopping and mining, and after 7 turns you will get 20 hammers from the forest, and you will have a mine ready.

Or you can do
B) Push the "chop forest" button. And then get 20 hammers after 3 turns.
and THEN push the "build mine" button, and you will get the mine done in 4 more turns.

Same result in B as in A, but you get the 20 hammers from chopping 4 turns earlier, and that is a good thing.

Hope this is clear now.

Very clear now, thank you Krikav!

Settler has movement 2, warrior has movement 1.
If you send them together, the settler will be slowed down.
If possible, one want to avoid this.

That can be quite a big issue I've seen. Good point.

 

[lymond]

I'd still like to see a save. Hamburg looked like a terrible spot from what I could make out from the screenshot and just wanted to make sure and identify better spots. The key thing may be getting a strat up asap to take out Joao.

Try not building the GW unless it is just an obvious thing to do. Learn to spawnbust with warriors. Krikav is right in that you should have warriors spawnbusting an area before you settle.

Remember worker management. If you move on to a hill to chop a forest, you might as well mine. it. Otherwise, you are losing at least 2 worker turns. (Chopping the forest is really a matter of timing. I might just mine/chop if the timing works out better)

The "speed" at which you do things (worker turns,moving settlers/units) gives you an advantage.

 

[CreeDakota]

when you chop first and then build the mine you also get a very small chance the forest will regrow.

I recommend being a bit more deliberate with your planning. While everyone organizes their thoughts differently one strategy is to define what problems your empire is facing and then come up with solutions.

Issues I see you need to deal with in the very short term:

1)Containing Joao
2)Barbarians coming from the north.
3)Settling a base core of cities

in the Mid term:
1)Establishing an economic base
2)Securing strategic resources
3)Dealing with unhappiness

Ofcourse all this is trying to answer the question; How will I win this game?

your tech choices, infastructure, units, and wonder builds should be trying to solve an immediate problem. Try to avoid building or doing something just because you can.

Since Civ is such a complex game there are many ways to go from here.

 

[Tycho]

I'd still like to see a save. Hamburg looked like a terrible spot from what I could make out from the screenshot and just wanted to make sure and identify better spots. The key thing may be getting a strat up asap to take out Joao.

Try not building the GW unless it is just an obvious thing to do. Learn to spawnbust with warriors. Krikav is right in that you should have warriors spawnbusting an area before you settle.

Remember worker management. If you move on to a hill to chop a forest, you might as well mine. it. Otherwise, you are losing at least 2 worker turns. (Chopping the forest is really a matter of timing. I might just mine/chop if the timing works out better)

The "speed" at which you do things (worker turns,moving settlers/units) gives you an advantage.

Ah. Again, I will keep those in mind as I continue to play the game. I've been reading Noble's Club and reading other threads for most of the day, so I will have screenshots early on by late tonight or tomorrow. .

when you chop first and then build the mine you also get a very small chance the forest will regrow.

I recommend being a bit more deliberate with your planning. While everyone organizes their thoughts differently one strategy is to define what problems your empire is facing and then come up with solutions.

Issues I see you need to deal with in the very short term:

1)Containing Joao
2)Barbarians coming from the north.
3)Settling a base core of cities

in the Mid term:
1)Establishing an economic base
2)Securing strategic resources
3)Dealing with unhappiness

Ofcourse all this is trying to answer the question; How will I win this game?

your tech choices, infastructure, units, and wonder builds should be trying to solve an immediate problem. Try to avoid building or doing something just because you can.

Since Civ is such a complex game there are many ways to go from here.

For short term goals:
1) Jao... I'm thinking about rushing him with axemen and chariots if I can get access to copper really quickly and easily.
2) Warrior spawnbusting sounds like a really good idea
3) I'll try to get some more detailed screenshots of the terrain and provide a save here in a little bit so that will hopefully give people a chance to judge how to proceed from here on out.

Mid term goals:
1) So instead of trying to get the cities larger through farms (as I typically did unless I was playing as a financial leader on Noble), more than 50% of the city's worked tiles should be cottages? What percentage should be turned into cottages?
2) Agree wholeheartedly with that right there
3) I've already sighted dyes and gems to the south, but the Russians might get them first... I could trade with them and try to see if there are any further south of me.

In terms of tech, I think I will need more economic techs and ones like Education and Printing Press in order to keep a tech lead on Prince, since it is very easy to fall behind, yes? Lot of economic and science buildings need to be built as well in order to keep a lead and possibly buy any techs I don't have from the enemy competition, with some military units and buildings tossed in as well and plenty of workers if I don't capture many from Jao and possibly Russia or the Khmer. Great Wall needs to be built to keep out the barbs and protect the cities, as well as the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus as I forsee a lot of port cities in the future.

Any ideas on the strategy? Any specific techs I should shoot for as fast as possible?

Any advice is appreciated .

 

[lymond]

need....a.....save

 

[Tycho]

Hehe, working on it Lymond. Should be up in half an hour, unless I managed to screw it up somehow... which is more likely than not .

 

[lymond]

Click "Go Advanced" Button below > Management Attachments Button > Upload Save (takes about 3 seconds)

 

[Tycho]

Save uploaded, enjoy!

EDIT: Saw your post after I finished posting it lymond... enjoy all the same though.

 

[ShengWuLien]

Hey Tycho, thanks for posting your game, I've enjoyed following it so far.

The other folks commenting here are all some way ahead of me as players, so my first tip would be to listen closely to their advice!

I will toss in a couple of cents while I'm here, though

In terms of tech, I think I will need more economic techs and ones like Education and Printing Press in order to keep a tech lead on Prince, since it is very easy to fall behind, yes? Lot of economic and science buildings need to be built as well in order to keep a lead and possibly buy any techs I don't have from the enemy competition, with some military units and buildings tossed in as well and plenty of workers if I don't capture many from Jao and possibly Russia or the Khmer. Great Wall needs to be built to keep out the barbs and protect the cities, as well as the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus as I forsee a lot of port cities in the future.

This is all big-picture stuff and won't affect what you're going to do in the next few turns. Education and Printing Press, for example, are techs you won't reach for a couple thousand years. There are more pressing matters at hand. Some basic goals might be:

1) Can you identify 6-10 good spots for cities to settle by 1 AD? Have you scouted enough of the land around you to do that? Are you making sure you have 1-2 workers per city to improve the land around them?

2) How will you defend yourself in the short term--against barbarians and the other AIs? I would urge you to forget the Great Wall and learn to fogbust with units as defense against barbs--that's a great skill to learn if you want to play at higher levels. But you will need a strategic resource such as copper or horses pretty soon. Where are those, and can you settle a city to claim them?

3) If an AI is so close that you won't be able to settle all those cities, can you take them out militarily? What type of war do you plan to use--axes? horse archers? elephants and catapults? something else? What techs do you need for those?

4) What's the route to the important economic techs in the early part of the game? With Writing, you can build libraries and run a couple of scientist specialists in at least one city, boosting your research rate and beginning to generate a Great Scientist. Alphabet will allow tech trades and building research, Currency will give extra trade routes and allow you to build wealth, and Code of Laws will let you build courthouses and switch into the Caste System civic if you choose. These are all important to get before 1 AD if you want to build a large empire!

Good luck!

 

[Tycho]

Hey Tycho, thanks for posting your game, I've enjoyed following it so far.

The other folks commenting here are all some way ahead of me as players, so my first tip would be to listen closely to their advice!

I will toss in a couple of cents while I'm here, though



This is all big-picture stuff and won't affect what you're going to do in the next few turns. Education and Printing Press, for example, are techs you won't reach for a couple thousand years. There are more pressing matters at hand. Some basic goals might be:

1) Can you identify 6-10 good spots for cities to settle by 1 AD? Have you scouted enough of the land around you to do that? Are you making sure you have 1-2 workers per city to improve the land around them?

2) How will you defend yourself in the short term--against barbarians and the other AIs? I would urge you to forget the Great Wall and learn to fogbust with units as defense against barbs--that's a great skill to learn if you want to play at higher levels. But you will need a strategic resource such as copper or horses pretty soon. Where are those, and can you settle a city to claim them?

3) If an AI is so close that you won't be able to settle all those cities, can you take them out militarily? What type of war do you plan to use--axes? horse archers? elephants and catapults? something else? What techs do you need for those?

4) What's the route to the important economic techs in the early part of the game? With Writing, you can build libraries and run a couple of scientist specialists in at least one city, boosting your research rate and beginning to generate a Great Scientist. Alphabet will allow tech trades and building research, Currency will give extra trade routes and allow you to build wealth, and Code of Laws will let you build courthouses and switch into the Caste System civic if you choose. These are all important to get before 1 AD if you want to build a large empire!

Good luck!

First off, thanks for following the thread closely ShengWuLien! I thank you for your advice so far.

I am working on trying to find new spots for the cities, and maybe wipe Jao off the map and claim his very fertile floodplains start, as shown in the screenshots. Trying to manage the scouts a bit better, I just took them off of auto wander and explore to try and find some new spots, about three turns in from the save file I uploaded.

I have not found any copper or horses yet, but I am hoping that that will change soon once I manage to finish up the necessary tech to be able to find horses (Animal Husbandry).

Right now, if it seems like Jao is in a rather bad off position, I plan to rush him with axes and chariots which require Bronze Working (check) and the Wheel (working on it). That is, if it seems like he is in a weak position, I'll take him out.

And thank you ShengWuLien, I hope that you have more advice in the future .

 

[CreeDakota]

Similar to Shen Wu Lien I encourage you to think in smaller steps. You also need to respect that this game is full of tradeoff decisions; You can do A or B not A and B. A basic example from your situation is you can grab an early wonder or you can Rush Joao in the ancient area. Personally I think you are a bit slow to try axes or chariots on Joao. Not impossible but could be tough if he has secured copper by the time you are ready to hit it. Rushes need to be well Rushed.

If you have horses, HArchers are a good choice against him.

I would be targeting Oracle if I were you. you are industrious and have marble in your BFCross.

 

[Tycho]

Similar to Shen Wu Lien I encourage you to think in smaller steps. You also need to respect that this game is full of tradeoff decisions; You can do A or B not A and B. A basic example from your situation is you can grab an early wonder or you can Rush Joao in the ancient area. Personally I think you are a bit slow to try axes or chariots on Joao. Not impossible but could be tough if he has secured copper by the time you are ready to hit it. Rushes need to be well Rushed.

If you have horses, HArchers are a good choice against him.

I would be targeting Oracle if I were you. you are industrious and have marble in your BFCross.

Ah, thank you for your extremely helpful advice CreeDakota. Is there any sort of tech that I should be rushing for at the moment? Or should I just research needed techs and follow multiple paths down the tech tree?

 

[Tycho]

I'm currently debating on whether or not to post some more screenshots here and continue with the game, or give people some time to play with the save a bit more. Opinions on the matter?

 

[lymond]

I think most would play from the start, although some might pick up your last save and play a few turns to show you the way. Problem is that your settings are prohibitive for many here.

Although it is rare I would do so, I would consider going straight to Iron Working to get a rush out. (Get Wheel first though) Archery is pointless. You are in an awkward position with the land, but taking Joao out will put you in a good position. Then you need to expand south rather quickly, at least from what I see, since there is a LOT of land down there.

Hamburg might have been better 2 north to share the corn. Your surrounding land is rather sucky.

 

[Tycho]

Mmmmm. I see. I'll play some more into the game and try to catch and hook Jao and eliminate him quickly. Screenshots should be up within two hours.

EDIT: Alright, got some more screenshots but I will post them tomorrow if that's alright.

 

[CreeDakota]

An swordsman rush is indeed rarely done on the forums. Does Joao have copper?

 

[Tycho]

An swordsman rush is indeed rarely done on the forums. Does Joao have copper?

Unable to tell at the moment. I'll check in worldbuilder if that's not considered cheating.

 

[Tycho]

Spoiler :

Alright, so the fishing boat is up and hauling in more clams for Washington. This is providing a nice boost to population expansion and the production of workers.

Spoiler :

Here is the squares and tiles that are being worked in the big fat cross of Berlin. Production of a worker is going along smoothly at the moment.

Spoiler :

I'm planning on building another Settler soon so that I can expand my borders some more, any good positions that you can see?

Spoiler :

Production of that mine and the chopping of the forest finished up, so that worker is essentially finished at this point. He's going to go work tiles south of Berlin and around Hamburg, and another worker is already slated in production in Berlin.

Spoiler :

The two workers that finished up the mine are going south to finish up a quarry and link it up to Berlin as soon as I have a chance and as soon as the hills have been stripped bare.

Spoiler :

Scouting around Jao's territory reveals that he as well has expanded, and seems to be growing quite rapidly to snag more resources. From what I can tell, he's rather undefended at the moment.

Spoiler :

A mine near Hamburg enters creation, and will hopefully speed up production of those barracks.

Spoiler :

Quarry finished, but I'm going to go chop more woods so that the next settler can be done on time.

Spoiler :

With the Wheel finished up, I start teching up for Iron Working like Lymond suggested. Swordsmen, here I come.

Spoiler :

The workers move into the hills to start the chopfest and produce more hammers for the upcoming settler in Berlin.

Spoiler :

The warrior in Berlin finishes up production and a settler is prepped. Now the question is, where to expand?

Spoiler :

Screenshots showing the possible terrain that I can send the warrior. Any suggestions guys?