Advice needed: Wall Street, Corps, better city?

[yanner39]

I need to decide where to place these. In my capital, I have a base commerce of 101. In the my holy city (coastal city) where I founded Christianity, there is a base commerce of 83. I also conquered my AI neighbor, who has 3 holy cities (I think).

Anyways, thanks to the good advice on these boards, I am in a position to actually plan on what I am going to do.

I know that you want to build Wall Street in your best commerce city and you try and found corporations in the Wall Street City. Also, it's always better to build Wall Street in the holy city with a shrine.

However, in my case, the holy city has a base commerce lower than my capital. Plus, my holy city is on the coast, much easier to attack.

Is this one of the "it depends" situation where I should build Wall Street and found Corps. in the city with the highest base commerce?

Also, I don't understand why you cannot control where the holy city is. I mean, in past games, a religion was founded in the most ridiculous location.

Thanks in advance.

 

[nbcman]

I would still place WS and corps in your Christian holy city. Normally I have my capital as a science or production city instead of a commerce city.

 

[JTMacc99]

I'm pretty sure base commerce isn't your only consideration. Base commerce goes through the slider before it gets turned into gold. (So if you are running the slider at 50%, the capital is generating 50 GPT to be doubled by Wall Street and the Holy city is generating 41 GPT to be doubled by Wall Street.) The kicker is that the GPT from the shrine is also doubled by Wall Street, so if your shrine provides 15 GPT, then the holy city is actually generating 56 GPT to be doubled by Wall Street.

Not only that, but in the turns when you crank up the science slider, the shrine city continues to produce gold to be Doubled by Wall Street, whereas the capital is churning out mostly science from all that commerce.

AND, as far as I'm concerned, founding corporations in the Wall Street city isn't an option. It is a requirement. See the strategy articles section of this forum to see the article about The Power of Sushi for the detailed explanation.

 

[popejubal]

Wall street goes in the city that has makes the most gold.

If you don't have a Shrine or a Corporate Headquarters, then that city is also your highest commerce city.

If you do have a Shrine, then your shrine city will also be your biggest gold producer, almost no matter what your commerce in the city is and what your / slider says. That's because commerce gets split between and even though commerce and gold have similar icons (that's one of the biggest problems Civ IV has IMHO).

Also, please remember that when you found and spread a corporation, having a Courthouse in each city that gets the corporation is generally MUCH more important than the location of the corporate headquarters. You get to choose where the corporation is founded, though, so obviously put it in the Wall Street city.

 

[JTMacc99]

Also, I don't understand why you cannot control where the holy city is. I mean, in past games, a religion was founded in the most ridiculous location.

This explanation was just posted in the general discussions forum a couple days ago:

For each city a random number is rolled (0-9)
There's something (I think 1) added to that number for each point of population.
That number is divided by a factor based on the number of religions already in that city.
That number is divided by 8 for the capitol.

the city with the largest number after all that is the holy city.

Generally, that means the largest non-capitol without a religion will end up the holy city. If every city has the same number of religions, it will generally be the largest city, but it starts being more a crap shoot at that point unless one city is a lot larger.

So the only way you can have any control over where the holy city goes would be to whip down the population in any cities where you don't want the religion to be founded, which might make enough of a difference to change the city where it goes. My suggestion would be to do a quick save right before the religion is founded. If you don't like where it ended up, reload the quick save and whip down the population in that city to see if that made a difference. If it didn't you're probably stuck with it. Also, that little move where it divides the capital city's number by 8 pretty much eliminates the odds of the capital ever getting it.

 

[yanner39]

I'm pretty sure base commerce isn't your only consideration. Base commerce goes through the slider before it gets turned into gold. (So if you are running the slider at 50%, the capital is generating 50 GPT to be doubled by Wall Street and the Holy city is generating 41 GPT to be doubled by Wall Street.) The kicker is that the GPT from the shrine is also doubled by Wall Street, so if your shrine provides 15 GPT, then the holy city is actually generating 56 GPT to be doubled by Wall Street.

Not only that, but in the turns when you crank up the science slider, the shrine city continues to produce gold to be Doubled by Wall Street, whereas the capital is churning out mostly science from all that commerce.

AND, as far as I'm concerned, founding corporations in the Wall Street city isn't an option. It is a requirement. See the strategy articles section of this forum to see the article about The Power of Sushi for the detailed explanation.

Thanks for this. Yes, very good points, especially concerning the sliders. So essentially, base commerce is one thing, however, the holy city shrine produces actual gold. Wall street doubles the gold or the commerce (I can check this actually)?

 

[JTMacc99]

Thanks for this. Yes, very good points, especially concerning the sliders. So essentially, base commerce is one thing, however, the holy city shrine produces actual gold. Wall street doubles the gold or the commerce (I can check this actually)?

I know I said I was pretty sure, but I should have left that out. Markets, Grocers, Banks, and Wall Street multiply Gold and not commerce. If you have things contributing gold directly (like shrines, merchants and priests) the gold itself is multiplied.

 

[SeptimusOctopus]

It seems like the difference between (commerce) and (gold) has been addressed already, so your other concern was the defensibility of your holy city. As to that, I'm having a really hard time thinking of reasons to avoid building Wall Street in a holy city. Building it elsewhere essentially trades 1 gold per turn for every city with that religion for a more solid location. Maybe if your holy city was closest to a border with Shaka it would be a bad idea to build it there, but I think I would always take the gpt and just build more units because you can afford more with the shrine's gold output doubled.

PS: Sorry if that was a bit rambling, I haven't finished my coffee yet.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

If Shaka is a neighbor, he should be dealt with before Wall Street is even able to be built. Same with Monty and to a lesser extent Catherine. Even then, whip walls/castle, and send a decent defense stack with a few barrage siege to guard it. I would never put Wall Street in a non-shrined city (as long as I have a Shrined city )

 

[slobberinbear]

Also: remember that the Shrine City's commerce can be dramatically increased by continuing to spread its religion. I would probably build ships and go worldwide with that faith.

Are the AI/conquered holy cities consolidated? In other words, are the holy cities spread out or were religions founded in the same city? If so, that is far and a way the Wall Street city.

 

[SeptimusOctopus]

@ blitzkrieg1980
Good point. Notorious warmongers should be eliminated, vassalized, or otherwise controlled prior to corporation.

I was just trying to imagine a scenario in which to avoid placing WS in a holy city. Wall Street is, in my opinion, one of the most cut and dry national wonders. For me, gold is more often generated through shrines, specialists, and settled GPs rather than raw commerce, due to having the science slider > 50%. Because of this it's fairly easy to determine where WS should go, a holy city if I have one. I sometimes have to think about Oxford, since I'm usually in Bureaucracy when I can build that, so my capitol has an inflated beakers per turn, so it might not always be best to put it there.

 

[wioneo]

If you have doubt about the safety of your city, spam boats around it. This is really the only decent use for ironclads in the game, by the way, and they are great at sinking wooden boats

 

[wioneo]

@ blitzkrieg1980
I sometimes have to think about Oxford, since I'm usually in Bureaucracy when I can build that, so my capitol has an inflated beakers per turn, so it might not always be best to put it there.

It is always so nice to get a capitol or jungle shrine city with rediculous commerce capacity so that you can drop both in the same city but as yous aid you definately need to check the base commerce(and don't forget to consider cottage growth) when looking at prospective Oxford cities.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I can swing both ways (heh heh) with this. Wall Street might be better in a cottage spammed city (assuming no shrine which is rare) if you are running a scientist-based specialist-heavy economy (IE the super scientist city) with heavy emphasis on scientist specialists in many cities. But that's rare.

 

[JBossch]

@the OP:
What year is this? It is important to consider the potentialities of these cities' outputs as well. If one has not built gold multipliers yet but the other has, that will throw off your early calculations.

 

[yanner39]

Thanks everyone. Actually, it's funny someone mentioned Shaka. He's my biggest rival, but he's on another continent. He is also Annoyed with me.

So yes, I will prop up my coastal defenses and I get the difference between commerce and gold. I was looking at base commerce instead of looking at gold being produced.


Also, I do not have a shrine yet in my holy city. I am trying to produce a great prophet to go and build it.

My capital city I guess is somewhat of a hybrid because it is producing alot of commerce, alot of hammers, and I have 3 great merchants merged in the city generating CPP. Should I just leave as it or maybe go towards a production city since I only have 1 other city that is very strong, production-wise.

Sorry for all the questions. I find this way on learning is alot better than reading posts or articles where I don't see what is going on.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

My capital city I guess is somewhat of a hybrid because it is producing alot of commerce, alot of hammers, and I have 3 great merchants merged in the city generating CPP. Should I just leave as it or maybe go towards a production city since I only have 1 other city that is very strong, production-wise.

Sounds like a great Bureaucracy capital. The civic gives +50% to and . So if it is a strong hybrid, then it's a perfect Bureaucracy capital. If bureaucracy is boosting your capital's to the point of it being the strongest city, then you may want to make it a production-strong science city. It really depends on the rest of your cities but, generally speaking, a good capital is usually candidate for science heavy. But since you only have 1 more production city, you might want to concentrate on hammer output (unless, of course, you don't plan on conquering).

As for the settled merchants, more food is always cool, but I almost always exclusively settle merchants in a well spread Holy City (like the one you are discussing) because it will always be my Wall Street City. Wall Street makes those settled Great Merchants worth 1 12 (before the market/grocer/bank). Also, any EXTRA great prophets (after the one you use to shrine) should settle there because of their 5. The extra food from GM would go towards feeding merchant specialists after important food and hammer tiles get fed. Just a tip for next game (and future Great Merchants and Great Prophets).

 

[JBossch]

Sorry for all the questions. I find this way on learning is alot better than reading posts or articles where I don't see what is going on.

We cant see whats going on either. You will get better advice with a save or (even better since I am at work) screenshots.

You also need to consider where other NWs will go since each city can only get 2. Deciding where Oxford goes, for example, is usually more important than wall street.

 

[JTMacc99]

So, you don't actually have the shrine yet, which is interesting. Also interesting is the settled merchants in the capital. That is 18 Gold per turn to be multiplied, which works exactly the same way the shrine would work.

You mentioned other holy cities. Do any of them have shrines and how much GPT is each shrine producing? If you've got a mega-shrine in one of the other cities, then that will also be something you should consider.

@ blitzkrieg1980
Good point. Notorious warmongers should be eliminated, vassalized, or otherwise controlled prior to corporation.

Damn warmongers completely screw up my warmongering plans. I actually find Monty much worse to deal with than Shaka. Shaka is like a mean dog who's gonna attack somebody, but can be pointed in the other direction if you are careful. Monty is like rabid dog who just needs to be put down as soon as possible.

 

[yanner39]

Sounds like a great Bureaucracy capital. The civic gives +50% to and . So if it is a strong hybrid, then it's a perfect Bureaucracy capital. If bureaucracy is boosting your capital's to the point of it being the strongest city, then you may want to make it a production-strong science city. It really depends on the rest of your cities but, generally speaking, a good capital is usually candidate for science heavy. But since you only have 1 more production city, you might want to concentrate on hammer output (unless, of course, you don't plan on conquering).

As for the settled merchants, more food is always cool, but I almost always exclusively settle merchants in a well spread Holy City (like the one you are discussing) because it will always be my Wall Street City. Wall Street makes those settled Great Merchants worth 1 12 (before the market/grocer/bank). Also, any EXTRA great prophets (after the one you use to shrine) should settle there because of their 5. The extra food from GM would go towards feeding merchant specialists after important food and hammer tiles get fed. Just a tip for next game (and future Great Merchants and Great Prophets).

This will confirm my inexperience, but I was running bureaucracy but changed to Free Speech in order to get the +2 commerce from my towns and increase my culture.