advice on winning prince

se7en

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 17, 2003
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Here's my Prince game save as Mehmed. I'm right at the point where I'm on the slippery slope falling backwards in score (I do OK in the beginning on Prince games and then start falling behind in tech and score around this time.) Noble is too easy so its kinda frustrating adapting to the new difficulty where I survive but end up middle of the pack and have no clear idea for winning.

Any advice? I haven't been to war.. is it necessary at this difficulty level? I could probably grab an American city (Cyrus is my ally) but it's not entirely clear to me that it's worth it; I just settled the northernmost cities so until now there hasn't really been a need. I also have run my workers manually until just a few turns ago (when I automated them with workers leave old improvements on) and I could probably use some advice with what to do with my workers.

[edited to change topic so its easier to find in searches]
 
I don't have Warlords, so I can't open your file and take a look.

I recently started playing and winning my first Prince games after spending months at Warlord/Noble. I can tell you that, at least in my experience, all of my wins have included wars. I've gotten a few domination wins which clearly required war. And the space race victory I achieved also required several wars in order to expand to the size. I found that to be able to outpace the AI in tech, you have to be larger than they are, working more tiles, more cottages, etc. Or at least, I had to be. If you're not first in land mass, you probably need to start taking cities.
 
I'm an experienced Prince player looking to move up to Monarch, so I decided to pop open your game and take a look. I feel a little qualified to say something. ;)

The one thing I can advise without even seeing the game is this: war is necessary. The AI gets better commerce, cheaper maintenance, more units, free units at the start, etc. but they still can't fight as well as a human. Use this to your advantage. In essence, you have to play like Prussia. Stop thinking of yourself as a country that happens to have a army. Start thinking of yourself as an army with a country.



And now, from my cursory glances around your empire...

:confused: I don't know why you are building hammans in your size 2 and 3 cities. You should only build health/happiness buildings when you are within a point or two of reaching the limit. Your cities cities in the north and west can grow to ~7 before they even need to think about building a hamman. Consider building/whipping a granary in both, and then get other infrastructure or soldiers going.

:confused: Also, why are those cities in the north guarded by upgraded horse archers when those could be better deployed southwards? Always guard your cities with archers/melee units, and keep mounted units available for striking enemy cities or fighting off the enemy as they cross into your lands. Mounted units do not typically receive defense bonuses (unless UUs), so they do not make good city defenders.

:eek: In Istanbul, why do you have a Citizen? Get that guy working in the fields, or working as a specialist. Don't leave citizens if you can avoid it--they do practically nothing, as both priests and engineers more than outweigh that puny +1 hammer, and working in the fields might produce more food (read: more whipping).

:( As a quick note, the enemy comes in force on Prince. If Cyrus backstabs you, you will lose Bursa quickly. Reinforce that city, and try to keep a border guard of at least 3 units, preferably an upgraded longbow or two, maybe a mace and a mounted unit. Come to think of it, Bursa could use some terrain improvements, like farms. Many of your cities (besides the capital) are lacking in terrain improvements--build more workers to get stuff done). Farms are great because they increase your food, which correspondingly increases your production when you whip your citizens. Since you don't have a lot of high-production mines, that is your best bet for getting stuff done.

:cry: I don't mean to sound rude, but your army is in dismal shape. Those nonpromoted warriors are pretty much useless--I would dismiss them, and produce macemen. I didn't see a single mace in your territory. Or longbow. Or crossbow. Those are solid middle-age units that you need for fighting a war--you won't be able to take anything with your current army, especially with cities like Atlanta having a 75% culture defense boost. You need catapults for that, as well as a set of middle age units instead of your current obsolete army if you expect to survive a war.

:goodjob: On the side, you have a nice treasury--I never have that much by this point in the game unless I'm extracting it from an AI. You might be tempted to upgrade some of those warriors to maces, but I would advise against upgrading units without promotions--I just don't think they are worth it.

:( Now, technology wise, you aren't in great shape either. You are falling behind quickly, but somehow are the only one besides Washington to have maces. You need Construction and Code of Laws--those will allow you to build Catapults and Courthouses, staples for an expanding empire. The Catapults are necessary for breaking down city defenses...build 3 cats, and escort them in with several maces, some city raiders, rest combat + shock/cover/anything else, send a medic, and maybe a handful of spears, longbows, and crossbows. Courthouses are needed to boost your income by cutting costs, and to keep your science rate high while conquering (you don't want to fall to 60% or below for too long, otherwise you will be shafted by your more advanced AI neighbors).

:king: I then looked at your civics--you have Vassalage and Bureaucracy available. Switch to one of them. Vassalage will work well if you get barracks up and start mass-producing soldiers (preferably by beating your populace into submission), while Bureaucracy will greatly boost your capital (which is your largest city in terms of commerce). Either is a solid pick.

:confused: I noticed you don't know too much about the map...try to sign an open borders agreement or two (with Cyrus?), and send an old unit around (one of those warriors will do just fine) to map out the world. It helps to know the size and shape of your opponents, where their resources are, etc. That, however, is a detail at the moment. Focus on upgrading your military and getting Construction and Code of Laws.

:sad: From the state of your country, it looks like you aren't using the whip very often. For the most part, I will whip out granaries and barracks in my cities so I can start producing experienced troops in several cities quickly (again, usually by whipping--this works great when combined with Vassalage or Theocracy). Also, since your capital is so unhealthy, consider whipping away that problem by rushing some troops. Don't be afraid to sacrifice your population for buildings and troops. I was originally, and the game got a lot easier when I learned to slaughter thousands of citizens to get what I wanted done. I constantly whip in my cities, from the moment I first get Bronze Working until everyone else starts using Emancipation and I can't take the unhappiness anymore.

My course of action would be to whip barracks and granaries in all my cities, if they weren't in place already, and then begin massing longbows and maces. I would switch my research to Construction, and immediately whip catapults once it's completed. Then, mass and attack someone. My choice would actually be Persia due to their weaker standing in power (but you are by far the weakest--pay attention to the Power graph!). However, if you want to keep him as a potential ally, Washington is your next best bet. Be prepared to defend yourself, though, he appears to have a much more massive military.

I don't mean to sound too critical (I'm a critical person, I can't help it), but I just want to offer some pointers that I mostly learned the hard way. I still think you have a chance to win, given your situation, but you have to act quickly to establish a permanent dominance. The key will be beating down an AI with a combo of catapults and maces, which you are able to do at this point because although they are ahead of you, they aren't that far ahead. You might even get a tech out of a peace settlement.

Whew...I originally thought that will be a little shorter of a message, but it turns out I just couldn't stop typing. Just think about it, and see if you can kick it up a little more. Just remember, you can do this, and if this game doesn't work, post another from an earlier year (maybe ~500 AD) and we'll work on that. It definitely took me a few games to get used to Prince, so I know what it feels like.
 
My general tips for winning a Prince game: first, start on a pangaea, standard size, epic game speed (that's my thing, at least--not necessary), and pick a civilization with a classical or medieval age unique unit and a strong set of traits you feel comfortable playing.

My first build is usually a worker, and I go for agriculture if I don't have it already to hook up any food resources near my capital immediately. If I don't have food resources, I try and find a way to get at least 4 food per turn or the equivalent for settler production, and get a worker and the technologies required for that (example: if I have pigs, I get Animal Husbandry, or if I have wheat, I do what I just mentioned above).

That's a start that not many people consider--I never did on Noble. But I've found that really helps me get an early settler out (I can usually beat the AI on Prince, haven't finished a Monarch game to comment on that).

Research Bronze Working early, and switch to slavery. If your cities are in danger of becoming unhappy, whip them for buildings or troops. Also, if your city gets to size 4 or larger, consider whipping it to finish a building like a library. In general, try to get early cities with great food income, and then whip the extra populace that isn't doing anything but sitting on a forest square to get stuff done. If your citizens are working unimproved tiles, whip them to get production done, and then get a worker over there to improve the tiles. As a matter of fact, consider whipping workers--I've done it. Several times. If you are concerned about happiness, don't be--that 1 unhappiness should go away in the time it takes your city to grow back, and if you whip more than 1 citizen's worth, then you get a deal (more production, same unhappiness).

Getting used to whipping took me a few games, but it really helps you keep up with the AI production, which only gets better as you go up in levels. Especially if you are lucky enough to get a solid city with 3 food resources, you can work those 3 tiles, get ~12-15 food per turn, consume 6...you have 6-9 food surplus a turn. With a granary, the city will grow every few turns. Whip those guys for production! Food = Power.

Also, use bronze working's forest chopping ability to chop a barracks in one of your first two cities (or both), and use that city to produce soldiers. NEVER produce troops at a city without a barracks unless you absolutely have to. Chopping is also a good idea to rush wonders (see below) or settlers.

That brings me to the next tip: I mentioned it above, but I'll reiterate. Think of yourself not as a country with an army, but as an army with a country. Focus on keeping a top-quality military, and don't foolishly risk units with experience and promotions. You will probably get a few fighting animals and barbarians...so, the next logical step is...

Attack a neighbor! Find a nearby civilization, and pick on them. If you have the opportunity to rush them with axes (or the Incan quecha warrior) before their cities are well-defended, you can take some land. If they have too much cultural defense for your guys to break it down, research Construction ASAP to get catapults to neutralize that advantage.

If you are worried about other AIs getting mad at you for this, intelligently pick a target. For example, if most of the nations are Hindu and Buddhist, and there is the lone AI who picked Judaism as a state religion, invade him! The others won't care!

Also, in all your expansion and conquering, keep an eye on your treasury and science rate. Try to keep it above 60%, preferably at 70&. Code of Laws works great for this, as you can build courthouses to reduce maintenance (and thus conquer/expand more). Also, currency helps because markets boost gold income by 25% and enables you to ask for currency in foreign exchanges...I'll sell resources for GPT at the first opportunity.



Now, that is a powerhouse start. From there, strategy has to be selected based on the situation at hand. But, you should always keep an eye on the foreign advisor for trading, and keep an eye on the power graph to make sure you are keeping up reasonably well with the AI.

Regarding religions, I tend not to have a state religion, even if I found one. The reason is that I typically want the ability to trade with all the AIs, and I'd hate to be on the side of the "weaker" religious group. Thus, if I found a religion, I'll spread it in a focused manner to a weak AI nearby to isolate him from the others, and then attack him.

Regarding wonders...you don't need them. Some people base strategies around getting certain wonders, but I have always found that to be a bad idea. Rely too much on getting a specific resource, getting a specific resource, and you really aren't making any strategic decisions whatsoever--you just follow the formula. Now, with that being said, it is still a good thing to select a few wonders to try for based on the situation at hand. It's good to go for wonders that you have the strategic resources for (stone or marble--always try to produce wonders with those resources if you can). A lot of people like to start with Stonehenge--I have in only 2 games. I admit I'm a fan of the Oracle's free technology, but I haven't gone for it in several games and still won. Some guys like to get the Pyramids or Parthenon. Great Library is good in your great person factory to boost your production of great scientists...

And that reminds me. Definitely design one city to be a great person factory. Build as many farms as possible, try to get a couple food resources. Whip out libraries and other buildings that allow you to allocate great people, and keep them filled if at all possible!

That's all I can think of now...try it. The big thing is utilizing slavery and chopping, and making sure you have enough workers to improve all the tiles you are actively using. Besides that, internationally, you need to be aggressive and conquer an AI early on. That will give you an advantage in land and resources that is needed to keep up later in the game.
 
For me, Prince level was the point where I really needed to start thinking about the underlying game mechanics. In other words, to start thinking in plans, rather than in turns.

That means:
making sure there's enough to do when your worker appears.
making sure there are enough interesting builds when your queues are empty
making sure that you consider the resources about, and how you can exploit them
and fitting all of these together into a strategy.

Otherwise, you end up in situations where you chop away the last forrest health point in a diseased city while dedicating the hammers to a Synagogue you don't need.


So take a moment to think about Mehmed. He's expansive and organized, so his harbors and lighthouses are cheap. How do you arrange your cities to take advantage of that? What wonders work well with this combination? What are the important technologies, and what else can they do for you?

His uber building is the Hammam - can you make that fit with your plans? What about the Janissary?

Hey, you've got marble - how do you make that fit?

Not everything goes into every game - You can't slingshot civil service and get the pyramids and colossus and great library while founding 10 cities and seven religions anymore. So you have to make choices - if you make coherent choices, Prince turns into a walk in the park.
 
spoooq said:
Theres a recent thread on this board about understanding your AI opponents, read it and open up the XML file they mention and have a look.

do you know the name of this thread? i tried searching for "understanding ai" and "understanding opponents" and couldn't turn anything up.
 
VoiceOfUnreason, thanks for saying what I was too tired yesterday to say--I think I was kind of going there, but got sidetracked.

I even said "getting a specific resource" twice...I meant wonder, unit, or resource, but just said the same thing over and over. I must have been really tired.

But what VOU said about making decisions that are relevant to your leader and your civilization's attributes are important. I'm a bit of a warmonger (Prince truly taught me the enjoyment of the fight), so a lot of what I said relates to that. I think you can win peaceably on Prince, it's just a matter of skill and determination.

As a general rule, I place high value on Bronze Working (I already went into detail on that--whipping and chopping gives you an edge production-wise), but I also like to get Pottery and Writing quickly in order to get cottages up and going early (although I got that under control on Noble). I tend not to declare a state religion, but rather get Alphabet and Currency and play the trader between warring sides. But that's just one style--you can go the other way with it too.

I guess the real lesson of Prince is to learn how to approach each decision on a micro and macro level. For example, what is the marginal benefit I will get by researching this technology first? By chopping this forest, will the sacrifice of that health point pay off by completing this task early? How about whipping--is the sacrifice of those people worth, say, getting a settler out quicker to claim an ideal spot? Worth getting a library 8 turns early, and getting that 25% science boost earlier? Can your border expansion wait for a monument to be completely normally, or is another AI nearby and you want to claim some land? And, while dealing with all the minutia, all the little marginal benefits and opportunity costs, you have to keep in mind your grand strategy. For me, it's conquest or domination, and I have found those the easiest to achieve on Prince.
 
Antilogic said:
As a general rule, I place high value on Bronze Working (I already went into detail on that--whipping and chopping gives you an edge production-wise), but I also like to get Pottery and Writing quickly in order to get cottages up and going early (although I got that under control on Noble).

I've been losing some of my fondness for Writing, actually. The Open Borders agreement doesn't seem to buy me very much in the early game, and while libraries will be useful eventually, I really only have immediate use for them in the capital (where you get a free boost from the palace), and in those cities that slam into the happy cap too quickly.

And if the map allows you to expand rapidly, the slider drops down where the libraries aren't doing much for you anyway.

On the other hand, it does unlock many goodies....
 
WAR WAR WAR.

I'm about ready to have my first honest Prince win. (Previous win was a domination win in Terra -- not much of a challenge when you can lock up the new world before the AI even thinks of settling there.)

I can say I'm about to win because its 1920 and I'm half done with my spaceship. I own 40% of the globe. I'm pulling in 150 gpt with a treasury of 11,000, and science at 70%. The two best AI civs are Pleased with me, leaving only my neighbors, Mao and Hyuna, at Cautious. My power isn't that great, but once I upgrade my old battle-tested units into a handful of Combat IV Gunships and City Garrison III Mech Infantry, I'll be ready for anything.

I warred.

Game started with me being uncomfortably close to Hatshupsut, so I built one axe and took out her only city. Then I just kept building archer/axes and chased after Cyrus, who also was getting too close. As new units (swords, cats, war elephants) became available, I built those too. I destroyed Cyrus, and after a few turns of break, I turned south to destroy Saladin. Non stop war got me where I am now. Sure, my economy suffered for a while; if I weren't a financial civ, I would have had to deal with some serious Striking.

* Financial civs are good. This saved me. It gave me techs faster and kept my treasury from disappearing into oblivion in the middle ages.
 
Wars and improvements... everyone has said it already so I'll add something new:

Recently, I learned to value producing ":gold: Wealth" in a city...

In Warlords, it is now worth it to build Wealth, Research, or Culture in a city as hammers are now converted 100% to any of gold, beakers or... uh, "musical notes" as opposed to 50% in the regular game.

If your research rate is suffering and you're losing money, try building Wealth instead in the capital (especially if it's on Bureaucracy), this usually lets you increase research 10-20% depending on the size of your empire.

Anecdote: In a recent Monarch game, this move even let me survive and keep up in tech from 400AD to 1400AD, even while forgetting to revolt to Bureaucracy :smoke: while assimilating a neighbor's cities.
 
You know, I still haven't produced wealth or science in cities...or even culture but a few instances. The only instance I remember using wealth was when I wanted a certain high productivity city to start on a wonder the moment it was available, and I had 2 turns left until I got the technology. Since another War Elephant would be 5 turns, I decided to just wealth it until I got the tech and started immediately.

This was on a longer game speed than normal (probably epic, potentially marathon), so that 5 turns thing might be throwing some people off.
 
Warring is very important. However, if you don't have the basics down for handling your economy, you can actually make things worse by spending too much on military, overexpanding and getting crushed by city maintenance costs.

You need to track your economy carefully. Watch your GNP rating. Probably the simplest way to keep up is by building cottages early and often.

Edit: and you need to build courthouses, markets, etc. in a timely manner. Don't expand too much before getting COL, and building some courthouses. I almost always end up switchnig to Bureaucracy ASAP.
 
cool, i followed your guys advice and totally won a time victory, no problem. a little bit of conquering kept me competitive with the ais and i soon got ahead in score, i just had to worry about mansa winning a space race victory so i built tons of tanks and crippled him while i waited for the time victory to come. he eventually capitulated to me with one turn left after i'd been nuking him with one or two nukes per turn for the last five or so.

good times!

still, any tips from looking at my endgame would be appreciated. i feel like i kinda got an easy one this time.
 
On a side note to get a lot of info how to play on Prince, check the ALC threads by sisiutil where you see a lot of great games played. All games are supported by very good players and I learned A LOT from those games. Right now I am made the jump to monarch. ALC stands for All leaders challenge btw.
 
Agree with Kilroyan. Read up on Sisiutil and aelf's games to get a flavour of the decision processes that experienced players go through - sometimes its hard to translate the more theoretical aspects into actual gameplay, so I think these sorts of games are a very useful learning tool (and a good read as well). Check out the succession games as well.

On the subject of war and military. Always remember that your military is not just about conquest, and that war doesn't always have to involve you to be valuable.

1. Keeping a strong & up-to-date military can keep you out of wars as well as allow you to wage war. Always be aware of your relative power, even if you're not planning an offensive. Any unexpected war can be harmful and the AI is opportunistic, so consider the state of your garrison even when in 'building' mode.

2. War is not just about gaining you land, it's also about keeping the other guys down. A crippled civ can be better than a destroyed civ if their land is strategically placed. Crippled civs rarely cause you any problems and slow down expansion of other civs. Also, a war need not be about conquest at all - a well planned pillaging attack can set back an opponent many years.

3. Finally, many of the most productive wars are those that don't directly involve you. Ever been in a game where you've been in constant war with your neighbours only to find some other guy has raced ahead in tech? Well you can do the same by actively promoting wars between evenly matched opponents. So long as neither make significant gains in the war it will be doing you good.
 
How to win on Prince:

Read one of the strategy articles on how to win on Monarch or Emperor, and use the tactics/tips given there.

Don't use Deity, probably not Immortal as that is too different from Prince and will only confuse you
 
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