AENIGMA01 - C3C Training on Monarch - Conq/Dom

[ÆnigmÆffect]

Nice to get the show on the road!

Questions (since I find what you did unorthodox...):

Was it presumably safe to go granary first (with wood chopping)? Just a calculated risk that we wouldn't get wiped out? How many turns did it take to build the granary?

Was your choice to go granary first also because we know other civs are expansionist? How do we know they're expansionist?

If we wait for people to come to us, won't there be a chance that they will have met each other fairly quickly, thus harder for us to keep other civs "in the dark"?

You popped a hut with the worker because we had no offensive units, thus will not pop a barb, right?

 

[Zavior]

Boo, you didn't take me in!

About granary, it was safe. I think you can easily outgrow AI with that cow

 

[ÆnigmÆffect]

Eek! Sorry I totally missed you when I was reading through tallying the roster. I'll toss you in for sure!

Updated Roster: Due to poor eyesight on my part:

Bede Just finished
TCS1 Up
ÆnigmÆffect On deck
Zavior Added
dmanakho
Tubby Tower
DBear

 

[Tubby Rower]

Was your choice to go granary first also because we know other civs are expansionist? How do we know they're expansionist?

If we wait for people to come to us, won't there be a chance that they will have met each other fairly quickly, thus harder for us to keep other civs "in the dark"?

You know they are expansionist from crpMapStat (or the manual). Other civs shouldn't come attacking in the first 20 or so turns as they are busy building too.

<speculation>Also, I think that you wouldn't want to keep other civs "in the dark", since the more civs that know a tech the cheaper the price. Since this is Monarch, the AI research rate will be a little slower. </speculation>

You popped a hut with the worker because we had no offensive units, thus will not pop a barb, right?

Here is a thread about the probablility of what will come from a goodie hut goodie hut thread. Workers can pop barbs from a hut, but yes since we had no military yet, no barbs.

 

[Bede]

Questions (since I find what you did unorthodox...):

That's what the Abbot always said.

Was it presumably safe to go granary first (with wood chopping)? Just a calculated risk that we wouldn't get wiped out? How many turns did it take to build the granary?

The only reason to build a warrior first is for scouting, not protection. For the first twenty turns the AI are usually busy barb hunting and exploring with their warriors. In Deity games with raging barbs I have seen stacks of AI warriors go hot footing past my undefended capitol (outside the borders though) to get to the barb camp on the other side. If they cross the border on the other hand I build a defender post haste.

Granary was built on turn 15.

Was your choice to go granary first also because we know other civs are expansionist? How do we know they're expansionist?

You can use F10 (Space Race) to find the other nations on the planet and the 'pedia to identify the traits. Or you can Dianthus' CrpMapStat program which will give you the same information in one screen.

Here is a link:

Thank you Dianthus

The program also puts all the trading info on one screen, and the contentment of the empire on another, and will come to the foreground when conditions change.

Granary first because without a local food bonus we need a growth engine early. It will put us a little behind the exploration curve but it will also give the AI a chance to learn something useful while we accumulate the money to buy it.

If we wait for people to come to us, won't there be a chance that they will have met each other fairly quickly, thus harder for us to keep other civs "in the dark"?

On a small pangaea map with scouts out running around keeping the other guys "in the dark" is well nigh impossible without nicely located choke points.

Our best buying opportunities will take place when at least two nations know something that others don't so we can buy at a discount to monopoly and sell to the next two in line with something to offer. It's easier on an islands map
with a seafaring nation to play broker but on this map we will have to be very fast on our trading trigger and very sure in our aim.

We will also have to use the "pointy-stick" a lot once we have the tools to do so.

You popped a hut with the worker because we had no offensive units, thus will not pop a barb, right?

One of the few guarantees in Civ3. If you have no units with Attack or Defend points and pop a hut there will be no barbarians. You need to be careful when you have early curraghs out exploring though as they have Defense points.

 

[TCS1]

I got it. I will play tonight.

Yeah, we won't be able to keep other civs in the dark. Unless there's someone on their own island, and we're lucky enough to find them first, I expect every civ to be on a first name basis soon. No big deal, since that speeds up the tech pace anyway.

 

[TCS1]

IBT- Warrior completes, another Warrior is started, due in 3 turns.

1- I see that with the garrison, the luxury slider can be set to 0. Move worker on the plains on the east bank to start irrigation.

2- Start worker on mine on the wines. I figure we need at least one 2 shield square to work.

3- Warrior completes, settler started, due in 6.

4- Worker finishes roads the irrigated plains

5- I sent the worker to irrigate on the west bank plains.

6- Chichen grows to 5, set Luxury slider to 10.

7- Nothing

8- The warrior spots the Aztec cultural borders.

9- Settler à Spearman I set that as a tentative option, the next player can change that. Luxury down.

10- Both workers finish their jobs. I sent the one on the wines down on the plain. I start a road with the second one.

We didn’t meet any new civs. The Aztecs are up Ceremonial Burial, but they want most of our treasury for it. I figure we can wait on buying it.

There's ivory to the SW, but there isn't much room to settle. The Aztecs block the way.

 

[Bede]

This settler should definitely take the ivory. Settle right on it.

Also cancel the spear and build another warrior instead, and get the one in the capitol scouting. Remember we can build two warriors in the time it takes to build one spear and right now we need quantity, not quality.

 

[dmanakho]

Agree with Bede.
Spear to warrior.
We won't need many spears in this game if any.

 

[Tubby Rower]

Where's that barb going? usually they head for undefended things (workers, settlers, cities) . Should we try to take it out with the warrior in Chicken Pizza or should we just try to run away. Right now nothing is guarding our settler but a worker and that's not going to work too well. I vote to take out the barb with the warrior, but that doesn't mean much

 

[ÆnigmÆffect]

About settling right on the elephant...

In another game, I settled right on horses, and they FREAKIN' DISAPPEARED! Will this happen with the ivory? (I was going for horseman to attack, and that delayed me like 10 turns, since I had to find more horses....).

So, when will resourses just not show up if you settle on them?

Also, why won't we need many spears?

 

[dmanakho]

About settling right on the elephant...

In another game, I settled right on horses, and they FREAKIN' DISAPPEARED! Will this happen with the ivory? (I was going for horseman to attack, and that delayed me like 10 turns, since I had to find more horses....).

So, when will resourses just not show up if you settle on them?

Also, why won't we need many spears?

Resourses sometimes randomly exhaust. I reckon you just were extemely unlucky in that game.

Why would we need spears if we are going to have conquest/domination...
We will be better off building horses/swords.
Right now warriors since they are cheapest to cover settlers

 

[Minute Man]

lurker's comment: Horses don't exhaust. I don't know what happened in your game, but settling on resources doesn't make them go away.

 

[Bede]

Not too woried about that warrior. He's in the mountains, three turns away from the settler. If you swap spear to warrior you'll have coverage by the time the barbarian climbs off his perch.

I would have sent the warrior in the capitol with the settler, BTW.

The next set needs to set up optimal production in Chichen which I think can be a warrior and settler every six. What's important is to start the next settler at pop4, and growth in 2. So it looks like we have room to build at least two more warriors.

I'm going to open the save and check the numbers.

Edit: The best we can do without sacrficing population at Chichen is going to be start the settler at 5 with growth in 2. The city will oscillate between 5-7. So, we will have to use a settler spawn instead of a settler farm tactic. In other words, once each new town has at least two citizens it starts a settler.

 

[ÆnigmÆffect]

Okay. Late turns by me (want to sleep, but this early in the game, 10 turns should take *too* long).

So still settler farm at capitol, right? But also start a settler on every other city at 2 pop? (that's also called Settler Spawn, I'm guessing?)

Okay, omw.

 

[ÆnigmÆffect]

Alright. Took 7 turns, need some guidance for last 3.

Here's the turn summary.

Preflight:

Game plan for next 10 turns:

Moving warrior out to scout, adjust lux if as necessary.
Settler going to find city. No army for back up (hoping green won't take it over).
Get capitol going pop 5-7 settler creation.
Explore.
Don't know what to do with workers, though...


End of 2510
Move warrior to scout.
Change production to warrior.

Turn 1 - 2470
Aztec got the wheel! Wants 5 gpt and all our money... Um... I wait, but for what? (is this right...?) (I think I'll wait until we explore more, and for when next settler comes out. We're gunning for the ivory anyway, so I'm guessing there's no need to see horsies just yet, since we can't settle there... Mebbe we'll see another civ, and price will drop by then?)
Chichen builds warrior (yay for free shield upon growth!)
Settler heads towards elephants.
Worker... Roads? (I would've preferred moving towards wine hill to mine those instead of him being on the plain. I'll irrigate these plains, then do that next. What would've been a better choice, between the two?)

Turn 2 - 2430
Aztec got Iron Working. Won't trade.
Worker roads.
Worker finishes road, moves towards elephant to road.
Settler moves towards ivory.
Barb backs off? WTH?
So, move warrior from Chichen to explore, adjust lux to compensate.

IBT
Yellow came from west. Barbs got killed by someone...

Turn 3 - 2390
Zulus. They're up IW only. Selling for 180.
Aztecs selling CB and IW each for 180... Decide not to trade, since Zulus only have 60 gold, so probably won't be able to buy it. Also selling the wheel for 4gpt and all our gold of 236.
Aztecs up IW, Wheel, and CB. Must be goody huts or more civs down south... They also have silk.
Builds another warrior. Scouting with it.
Worker finish road, move to more wines. (I prolly should stayed with wines on same side of river...)

Turn 4 - 2350
Zulu still no extra gold.
Aztecs selling same deals.
Founded Copan. Phew. Elephants didn't disappear.
General exploring (Aztecs have 2 towns, btw. We'll need choke point to keep them from expanding north, prolly...?)

Turn 5 - 2310
Nothin exciting

IBT
Montezuma asks us to leave. Will do... out the South, though

Turn 6 - 2270
Chichen warrior -> settler. We just don't have enough extra food for this... 5 turn settler, growth in 4...
Hooked up ivory. Ppl are happy!
Warrior stays for protection (is this right?), since we have 4 scouting warriors?
I think I scouted poorly this round.
Damn. Haven't payed attention to trade screen!
Zulus got CB, and their gold dipped.
The Wheel for 284 gold and 1gpt.
I'll wait to see another civ, or until settler comes out.
MM chichen to get settler in 2, along with growth.

Turn 7 - 2230
Settler is built.
Copan builds warrior.
Buying The Wheel for 300 gold flat.
See if Zulu'll pay... 15 gold.
IW... 9gpt and 12 gold...
Hm... What to do?
Oh, have horsies on hill in borders, btw. Need to road it.
Yellow borders up top by fog.
Dotmapping this up...
Aztec must've just built a settler, since the capitol is at 1 food (didn't see what it was at before, just noticing it now).

We got some crappy spots... Nothing with decent food. Only consolation is that we're industrious, so teams of clearing workers can make us better cities.

(sorry for the large file, forgot to check how big it was).

I'm thinking we could gamble and encrouch on Aztecs, and start an early war to get their techs (they will probably start *****ing at us or something soon).

Or perhaps yellow, since that can take advantage of more grasslands...

I don't know what to do. Need some help right now. (don't forget, I can still trade for IW, but at a large price. They really rip you off with those GPT deals, since 9X20 is 180 + 12, and I could've bought outright for 180... But may be important to try to prevent Aztecs from getting to it? But since they HAVE IW, they'll prolly found a city close to it...

Let me know, and I'll finish up tomorrow.

 

[Tubby Rower]

Here are my ideas but since I'm being trained they're probably wrong...

Two options
1. settler to red location and at best stop Aztec expansion (at worst have their empire split). This will probably set up our first war. The problem is that they have IW and more than likely have iron already or in the near future. I don't think that we can defend against swords right now.

2. Settler to yellow location and expand out into landmass. This will give us more land to grab, not set up an early conflict with the Aztecs, and start competing for land with the other 4-5 civs in the game. This is a pangea map and we have at least 2 others on our landmass so we are not on a itty bitty island. The downside to this one is that we will basically be conceding the land to the SW to the Aztecs.

As far as the techs go, they all seem REALLY expensive to me but I'm not sure if we can wait. So I'll let our trainers devulge their thoughts on these.

 

[dmanakho]

Holly cow... such a crapy start location...
Jungles and marshes.... It will take ages to clean and not many locations to settle...
I agree on red then yellow.
We can also settle couple of places west and then north...

Should we try an early archer rush to exterminate aztecs?

 

[Bede]

Settle red first as it stands, but move the yellow 1 east. That will preserve the forests for shields and link up nicely with the spot in the fog by the fish.

Change Copan to a barrracks and start producing archers instead of warriors there as I agree with d-man: it is Robin Hood time.

Don't work the mined hills in the first two turns of settler production. The sequence that works best starts a warrior when the city is set to grow in four, then starts the settler when there are 2 turns left in growth cycle with the citizens working the plains tiles.

I'm thinking I made an error trying to set up a settler farm. At this point we need three more towns built for the unit support value, barracks in Chichen and Copan and start training archers and trade with our bows and arrows.

Finally: get used to the notion of paying through the nose and ears for military techs and don't worry about making the deals profitable at this stage, just don't go broke. I'm not a big fan of paying on credit at this stage as our economy is not strong enough. Buying on credit will limit us to one deal every twenty or so (for economic reasons). Unless it is for something we really need like IW or HBR.

This map is really strange. We have met only two other nations even with the number of expansionists out there.

 

[ÆnigmÆffect]

Questions:

What do you mean by "buying on credit'?

Is it worth it to buy IW from zulus? (pricey, but then we can get swordsman.)

Yellow 1 east... What do you mean by "link up the fog by the fish"? What fog? And I'd rather go 1 NE, since that will:
Free clear of a marsh.
More hills to use (later on)
Get the fish when we expand border/connect borders.

However, I chose the yellow spot because that allows us to use more grasslands to grow (otherwise it'll take forever without clearing marshes).

Or, 1 SE so we can still use 2 grasslands (but we waste 1 since since we settle on it).

So, I need a bit more help on the yellow (actually, that'll be past my turn. So for the next guy, I guess!).


So, when I play my 3 turns, I should:
Change copan to barracks (it has pretty low production. Our capitol is a much stronger work horse, but I guess we need it for settlers...), build archers.

Settle on Red if not taken. Question. What if settling on red will have one of our squares on their border (if they have a city near there)? Still do it? But we lose that square...?