After 5 months of Editing, MY FINAL MOD

Perhaps I didn't express myself too well there - I haven't tried it in any mod but my own (not posted, I'm still constructing it). Apologies btw for discussing my own changes in your mod thread, but its meant as an alternative suggestion. Bombard gives a different kind of defensive strength to units with only 1 conventional Def, one that only works when the ranged unit is accompanied. Your changes make the bowmen more 'stand-alone' units, which wouldn't be my choice.

I think adding it to units with respectable defense factors would probably be unbalancing - not in favour of defense as such but in favour of those individual units. A 4-2-1 Crossbowman doesn't need it, still less a 4-3-1 English UU Longbowman. But for a 4-1-1 Crossbowman and a 5-1-1 Longbowman it works well. It certainly has an effect on overall balance, but exactly how much is hard to say, or even in which direction. Cities are perhaps a bit more defensible, but then the stacks approaching them are harder to counter-attack. And if you want to build a bowman you have to not build something else. It's imponderable - like war should be!

I've made my point, so I'll now butt out gracefully... :groucho:
 
Making crossbowmen more offensive I considered. That one gave me a lot of thought, and I can still go either way, as I am also trying to fudge a little for playablity reasons. I realize some compromise is necessary between straight historicity and the game. I'm open to improvements!

If you do a mod post it here and in a separate thread.
 
Hi Zouave

I look forward to downloading your mod pack, you have
made many adjustments to units for realism :)
It took you 5 months to complete. Fantastic effort and
thanks for supplying it.

Im only concentrating on balance and difficulty in mine,
but I think I will play yours for realism :)
 
Suggestions for more realism are welcome. I am thinking of making settlers WHEELED to prevent them easily marching into jungles - slowing down Settler Diarrhea. Consider doing it yourself.

Read the whole thread. Don't forget to paste in those .ini files.

All Firaxis would have to do is show us enough respect to offer a BASIC (simple) version, what we have now, and something to appeal to those of us who know something about History and CARE that the game fails in the realism dept.
 
Two other points updating all this.

You may wish to consider allowing BOMBERS only with ADVANCED FLIGHT, which does seem historical. EFFECTIVE bombers did come after fighters.

AS FOR THE NEW PATCH. . .

The Import feature in the Editor works, believe it or not. Any mod can have its values imported into the new basic mod. If you don't import you'll be stuck with Firaxis' goofy values.

If you try to run this or other mods from a different folder you may get an error messge. I did. So IMPORT.

Also, you will have to go into the .txt file and rename the Manhattan Project the "INTERNET". If not an error message appears. This took me three minutes. Very simple. Of course if you like thermonuclear warfare leave the MP in there.
 
Alright, I just replaced the old .zip with the latest one, and that includes such as settlers being wheeled; an extra hit point for post-gunpowder units; and bombers only after Advanced Flight.

Stealth bombers have infinite range, which is not ideal but better than the ridiculously low '8' Firaxis limits us to.

Settlers being wheeled should slow down Settler Diarrhea in jungles - unless the AI cheats here too.

There is still no Manhattan Project for reasons described. But if you like that just change Internet back to MP, and then go into the .txt and change "Internet" to "Manhattan_Project". One reason I don't accept it is there is no provision in the game for massive RADIATION pollution.


MOST IMPORTANTLY: I went to Editor/Culture and brought every resistance rate to ZERO.Theoretically, this should end Culture Flipping; if Firaxis can't get it right I do not want it at all. How well this works is still under investigation. Comments are welcome on that issue.
 
Alright, I just replaced the old .zip with the latest one, and that includes such as settlers being wheeled

You can't completely eliminate the fact that it was possible in reality to establish communities in jungled areas.
You should make a different settler unit that requires Map Making (reasonably, otherwise they will get lost etc).
You should make that settler unit slightly armoured in the animation (yet have no such values in the game) and more expensive, it should also require Iron or something like that.

Of course if you like thermonuclear warfare leave the MP in there.

You talk about historical accuracy but you leave out the most important factor of post-WWII deterrence?

If you don't like MP so much you can make Nukes much more expensive and require that each civilization must build the manhatten project small-wonder and make it very expensive, so it represents a nuclear reactor.

That way it can also be bombed.
 
a very well-thought out and balanced mod, especially with change of archers to defensive bombardment. i also like the wheeled settlers - settler diarrhea doesn't bother me, but i like the way it makes mountains and jungles real obstacles - you have to go around them, they funnel the growth of civilizations, much like the Alps in europe or himalayas in central asia. i've been experimenting with flagging tracked units (armor, MI) as wheeled - it makes straight-leg infantry, paratroopers, and marines suddenly very useful in certain circumstances, and it again causes the terrain to have very real channeling effects.

zouave - very well done and very well thought. you've got a lot of good insights and a lot of your criticisms have merit - *please* simply change the way in which you post the criticisms on other forums (i.e. stop calling things "stupid" or "idiotic" or "crap", provide solutions with criticisms, and don't repeat the same criticism over and over again) and then the rest of us can enjoy the value of your insights.
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe


You can't completely eliminate the fact that it was possible in reality to establish communities in jungled areas.
You should make a different settler unit that requires Map Making (reasonably, otherwise they will get lost etc).
You should make that settler unit slightly armoured in the animation (yet have no such values in the game) and more expensive, it should also require Iron or something like that.



You talk about historical accuracy but you leave out the most important factor of post-WWII deterrence?

If you don't like MP so much you can make Nukes much more expensive and require that each civilization must build the manhatten project small-wonder and make it very expensive, so it represents a nuclear reactor.

That way it can also be bombed.

Who says you can't start communities in jungles? You just now need a ROAD to get there. Reasonable.

We could make a new settler unit - call it a Pioneer with new capabilities. Now that the Editor allows "Add" units I will try that.
later. Hope the damn thing doesn't crash.

Nuclear war was a deterent because it was UNWINNABLE. In Civ 3 players use it all the time. The effects of nukes are in reality so severe, and so filled with radiation poisoning, it was not survivable. The insidious DELUSION that it was survivable and even winnable is in Civ 3. But as I said, you like it, add it back in. We can also "Add" new Wonders with the new Editor, so be my guest. MP Small Wonder, and much more expensive nukes is another option; one reason I got rid of them was we could not easily add new units, so I replaced them, But now that we can with the 1.29 editor maybe I'll add them back in with the newer values. Maybe.
 
Originally posted by GI Josh
. . . zouave - very well done and very well thought. you've got a lot of good insights and a lot of your criticisms have merit - *please* simply change the way in which you post the criticisms on other forums (i.e. stop calling things "stupid" or "idiotic" or "crap", provide solutions with criticisms, and don't repeat the same criticism over and over again) and then the rest of us can enjoy the value of your insights.

You prefer euphemisms, fine. Be sure to say the same to the Firaxis apologists (choose your euphemism) who have personally attacked me for months. But thanks for the comments.

Now that the new Editor easily allows us to Add new units and Wonders and the like I will eventually work on this some more.
 
In the tradition of Firaxis releasing beta games that haven't been playtested, I here submit the REVISED MOD with the latest additions - the result of the new editor. Many old, and some new, units have been added. I haven't yet playtested it. My basic mod is at the top of this thread; the below additions are in the mod in this post.

Helicopters are back - if you care.

Steel Warships have been added coming after Ironclads.

ICBM's are back (more expensive).

Tactical Nukes are back (more expensive).

Special Ops Teams have been added combining features of marines, paratroops, and with more punch.

Horse Archers are now a Babylonian UU (No "Starts GA") replacing horsemen for Babylon. Ideally, this unit should be Arab or Parthian (maybe even Mongol), but this is the best we could do. It makes the Babs a little stronger. If you want to make this their UU just give the Bowman to no one and allow HA's to start the GA, while giving plain old archers back to the Babs. This unit (HA's) has a small bombardment factor. It could very easily be given 3 MP's, but I left it at 2 - optional.

Trebuchet added. An improved catapult.

F-15 is back, a little more powerful. No GA for the Americans; another UU does that.

Modern Destroyer added. I didn't think there was much point in creating a Cruiser unit; just not that much of a difference between Destroyers of any kind and a Cruiser.

Super Battleship added. I might add a Super (or Nuclear) carrier if there really is a need for it.

Pioneers added. A Military Settler with more capabilities. It is not now just a bunch of civilians walking around.

Naval Mines created. This is the one unit that concerns me regarding workability. Mines were a very important aspect of naval warfare starting with the Industrial Era.These units can be placed by certain warships and only detected by such; otherwise they are invisible with hidden nationality. Result: just bringing a battleship up to a coast and bombarding is not advised unless you swept for mines first. The Russians, for example, lost some important vessels to the Japanese in the Russo-Japanese War including their best admiral. The unit should work in the game, but we shall see. It is flagged as "immobile".

Privateers are back - if you care.

Explorers are so useless I didn't bother bringing them back. There is nothing left to explore by the time you get them anyway, unless using just one rival civ on a gigantic map. Therir only use was sort of as a pseudo-partisan unt during war, so I just made a partisan unit.

Also. . .

Manhattan Project is back with some changes. Internet Wonder stays. You will definitely need to add it to the Civilopedia text if you already changed it to Internet. Very simple.

All bombardment units starting with cannon have a small nominal defense value reflecting the number of troops maintaining and manning them; they were also all soldiers too.

Partisans are now "Invisible".

Fascism added as a government, but owing to the limitations of what we can do in the Editor it may not be very important.

In Editor/Culture all Resistance Chance values remain at Zero - an attempt to kill Culture Flipping. If you like CF just edited them back up; if you forget the value merely go to an old saved mod or scenario and check.

A few other minor tweaks also.

I'll play a small map ASAP and try to use all the units and see what happens.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I am assuming the Editor does NOT require us to play with the Arts/Units folders, and the .ini files, for each new unit - a major pain. That was required to prevent crashing. But perhaps I assume too much...

Finally, I wish I could have added a Radiation Pollution effect for the results of using nukes, as too many just LOVE to do. That would be realistic. But we don't have that only just plain pollution.


NOTE: Remember, the more options and choices, the more interesting a game should be. Shock Troops, for instance, don't last very long before becoming obsolescent - but if you plan ahead you can nail your rival before he gets tanks going. Plan ahead!!



One of my concerns is this: before Shock Troops get on line, artillery is an important offensive force. In the real world cavalry will NOT defeat riflemen, and certainly not infantry. Any offensive before Shock Troops better use bombardment to succeed - that's the facts. Artillery always helps even with Shock Troops, but if infantry is attacking infantry even in the open you'd better have artillery preparation. And if the infantry is in a fortress even that might not work - remeber World War One before Shock Troops started attacking? Stalemate (but not so much on the Russian front where things were more wide ipen due to there being more territory).

So why it this a concern? If the stupid AI still doesn't use artillery correctly on the offensive it puts the AI at a disadvantage, but what the hell, it cheats so much maybe that's OK! ;) Ask Firaxis about the AI using artillery offensively; tell them to do some coding IF that is needed (I'm not sure).

More to come as this is playtested. Having used the Firaxis editor with NO hacking I assume it will work. Am I naive?? We will see.
 
Two things.

It started up nicely, and will so long as you have both Internet and MP in the .txt files. Just write it in. Simple.


I forgot to mention above I also added TRIREMES - an Ancient Naval Power unit. Galleys are just for transport.

Triremes have a combat factor of 2, with 1 for defense,. As this would make fights between triremes favor the attacker too much I added in a slight bombardment factor with no range which will occasional knock off a hit point. The attacker still will usually win, rightly.


Effect on the game? Should slow down the tech advance (which is good) as more units have to be build and Settler Diarrhea overseas is slowed down too. Settler-carrying galleys can now be sunk sometimes requiring the AI to build triremes. This will be better for MP as I am not sure how the AI will handle this.

Playtesting to continue.
 
One last point for now.

I've made enough changes in the basic game for awhile. Let's see how this works before the addition of new techs, improvements, and maybe Wonders. Eventually for them. . .
 
WARNING:

I have just discovered that dropping in Editor, Culture, all Resistance rates to zero does NOT stop Culture Flipping. Whether or not it effects it in any way I do not know, and Firaxis isn't talking. :mad: I consider this a major flaw in the game. Just one flip can wipe out the bulk of your offensive force costing you a victory. I consider it a FATAL flaw in historical scenarios.
 
Hey man, could you post your revised civlopedia, etc. text files here? Your mod won't run without the alterations in v1.29f.
 
This is very simple.

Go into the Pedialcons .txt file in the Text folder.

What I have is below, in part. All I did was copy the Manhattan Project segment and paste it in, at which point I changed its name to 'Internet'. I didn't bother changing anything else. It seems to work. If the .pcx files need to be changed to Internet that could be done too; of course you'll get MP images, but I don't care.

. . . #ICON_BLDG_Internet
SINGLE
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manhattanprojectlarge.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manhattanprojectsmall.pcx
#ICON_BLDG_Manufacturing_Plant
ERA
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manufacturingplantlarge.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manufacturingplantlarge.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manufacturingplantlarge.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manufacturingplantlarge.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manufacturingplantsmall.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manufacturingplantsmall.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manufacturingplantsmall.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manufacturingplantsmall.pcx
#ICON_BLDG_Manhattan_Project
SINGLE
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manhattanprojectlarge.pcx
art\civilopedia\icons\buildings\manhattanprojectsmall. . .
 
hey there been using LWC mod witht he new version keep getting a crash so im working on trying to go through and figure out what is making ti crash so far no luck but using the edioter i have changed a few things.

Horse in forests and hills
ivory in forests and hills.
gems in coast... pearls are a gem
renamed bananas fruit and put them in hills flood plains and forests... thought of adding fruits to desert as figs or something but hasnt
oil also in coast and sea. as off shore drilling
whales at coast.

wish i could add new terrians via the editor but seems thats not possible.
was thinking of a few.

has alot of idea to change the game but not good with the ediotor so would need. to figure out how to use it anyone have any place to pick up a good group of images for country leaders? so i can create new countries?

anyway Zouave would like to talk to you about historical problems with the game and some ideas.

anyway have a nice day
 
The only difference now is that the LWC has some new techs. Not enough for me to consider especially important.If you see one you like add it in.
 
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