AG13 - OCC Demigod

[LKendter]

600 AD
We can't afford war with Sumeria also. With Copernicus money into research is more efficient. Once Persia talks and I can see their techs, I can make the steal vs. research decision. For the moment I stay on cash.


610 AD
(IT) I put Istanbul on -1 food to get to 30 shields a turn. I would prefer to man the fort line with pikes and free up the knights for potential offensives.


620 AD
(IT) The Inca and Persia sign peace.


630 AD
If this was a solo game I would have went with Metallurgy from 600 AD. I would have gone with Sipahi as long as possible before rifles. However, everyone in the game keeps talking about slowing the pace.

Persia is up to Physics, but doesn't have Metallurgy. I up the science rate to max to follow Persia with Physics. I would like a chance at Newton's. That would insure space race as a valid backup.


650 AD
(IT) The Inca stop paying us for Silks.


700 AD
(IT) The Inca demand silk. The Hittite choke city will keep their troops away for a long time. I tell them bite me, but no war starts.


740 AD
Tyre is RAZED for $27
The Inca start Smith's.


750 AD
My parting gift for the team:

==========================

Summary:
Total killed units: 13 immortals, 3 AC, 3 Muskets, and 1 crusader.
Total losses: 2 knights (vs. 1 hp musket and 1 hp immortal), 1 elite horseman, 1 pikeman and 1 warrior.
Units captured: 1 Sumerian catapult that was upgraded.

The Sumerian and Persia war has been a stalemate despite our help. Persia getting BOTH unit wonders is just so powerful.

I think we either need to go peaceful for a while and get Newton and Sipahi, or initiate a dog-pile against Persia now. By going peaceful Zeus will expire and weaken the Persian position.


ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
ThERat
Gyathaar
Greebley
LKendter

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-750AD.zip

 

[Aggie]

Got it. Great going. I see that Persia is close to the Industrial age and that we can get a decent sum from them for peace.

I won't be able to play for Wednesday.

EDIT: At first glance I'd say that we'd better either had gone min science or for Military Tradition. Persia is up ToG and we are losing money while still 17 turns from it.

 

[Aggie]

I'll be playing this tomorrow morning at the earliest. Tomorrow evening at the latest.

 

[Greebley]

If this was a solo game I would have went with Metallurgy from 600 AD. I would have gone with Sipahi as long as possible before rifles. However, everyone in the game keeps talking about slowing the pace.[/bquote]

Ya, me too. The slower pace does make the 20k easier though. Probably makes conquests harder is the flip side.

 

[Aggie]

I wasn't talking about slowing the pace (EDIT: I did, but didn't mean it this extreme)... I like Sipahi. But we are losing 13 gpt while researching a known tech and we are still 17 turns from it.

EDIT: So we are losing money needed for upgrades and buying the two techs towards Sipahi.

 

[Aggie]

IHT: We have 20% war weariness. 20% of the unhapiness of our people is explained this way.

I don't understand why we are researching ToG at 40% (losing money) when Persia already has it. I stop research. I want to see us going for MT instead.

IT: Treb->knight. We lose the furs.

Turn 1 (760 AD) No need to buy the furs back. Persia has two saltpeter extra for trade, if we'd make peace. Selling world map gives me 3 gold. I do this every turn and won't mention it in the turnlog.

I redline a knight and immortal on a mountain. And a knight on grassland. My tactic is to redline the Persian troops and only attack the units when I can get to a safe position again. Sumeria can then help us with the other wounded troops.

4/4 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-3, our knight wins. [1-0]

IT: A lot of fighting between Sumeria and Persia.

Turn 2 (770 AD) An immortal is redlined.

4/4 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-1, our knight wins [2-0]

IT: 5/5 Crusader vs 4/4 pike on mountain: 3-5, our pike wins
4/4 knights vs 4/4 pike on mountain: 3-4, our pike wins and promotes
4/4 knight vs 4/4 knight on mountain: 4-3, Persian knight wins
4/4 knight vs 4/4 knight on mountain: 2-4, our knight wins [5-1]

Persia starts Shakes. They again didn't research Metallurgy.

Turn 3 (780 AD) I redline a vet knight and kill a redlined immortal with 4/4 knight. Trebs pillage the roads inside Persian borders. [6-1]

IT: Persian troops can't reach us this IT. Knight->knight. Hittites start Smith.

Turn 4 (790 AD) Crusader redlined by trebs. Elite knight kills the crusader, losing 3HP. [6-1]

IT: 5/5 AC vs 4/4 pike: 2-5, pike wins
4/4 knight vs 4/4 knight: 2-4, our knight wins [8-1] Sumeria starts Smith.

Turn 5 (800 AD) 2 immortals are redlined by our trebs.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 immortal: 1-0, knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 immortal: 1-1, knight wins and promotes. [10-1]

IT: 4/4 knight vs 4/4 pike: 2-4, pike wins. Sumerian troops start to use the safe road to Persia. [11-1]

Turn 6 (810 AD) Nothing much...

IT: knight->knight.

Turn 7 (820 AD) Trebs redline a musket and knight.

5/5 knight vs 1/4 musket: 1-1, knight wins and captures settler
5/5 knights vs 3/4 immortal: 3-3, knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-0, knight wins. [14-1]

IT: 4/4 knight vs 4/4 pike: 4-2, Persian knight wins
4/4 knight vs 4/4 pike: 4-3, Persian knight wins

Sumeria starts Shakes. Adana expands borders, we lose our horses. [14-3]

Turn 8 (830 AD) I redline 2 knights, a crusader and a musket.
5/5 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-1, our knight wins.
5/5 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-0, our knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-0, our knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/5 cruader: 1-0, knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 musket: 1-1, knight wins. [19-3]

Turn 9 (840 AD) Persia now has Metallurgy!

I redline a musket and immortal.
5/5 knight vs 1/4 musket: 1-0, knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 immortal: 1-1, knight wins. [21-3]

I make peace with Persia for 1040 gold (they pay ). Lux tax to 0%, we make 117 gpt. We can get a MPP with Persia, so their free tech is Nationalism I try a careful steal for 1327 gold. Steal succeeds and we get Metallurgy!

We still have 792 gold. I set science to 100%. We will have MT in 7 this way, losing 67 gpt. I think that Persia will go for Communism/Fascism instead of MT. That wouldn't be bad!

IT: The Inca declare on Sumeria and start Shakes. Knight->treb.

Turn 10 (850 AD) We MUST have the saltpeter. We want to have knights, cannons and Sipahi (those are in 6 turns). Persia is the only one with an extra resource. So I sell silks and 3 gpt for saltpeter. We give Sumeria our last silks and 15 gold for Horses and Spices.

We are now building a cannon, ready in 2. I mm-ed for 20 spt and income. We are doing -72 gpt, have 711 gold and MT is in 6. I didn't buy world map. I think that we need the money for upgrades.

IT: Sumeria advances more and more into Persian lands.

Turn 11 (860 AD) Nothing much.

IT: cannon->knight.

Turn 12, 13 (870, 880 AD)

Turn 14 (890 AD) Science to 80%, we lose 36 gpt and have 419 gold.

IT: knight->knight.

Turn 15 (900 AD) We are 1 turn from MT. Science to 70%, MT in 1. No other tribe has it.

We don't want to be at peace with Persia for long. And we certainly don't want a long-lasting peace deal between Sumeria and Persia. They are still at war, but I think that we should dogpile Persia again within 5-10 turns. We need enough Sipahi of couse. And for that we need the Persian saltpeter. That saltpeter is far north in the Persian core (2 sources). Hittites have Magnetism. We might be able to trade with them next turn. Persia already reached the IA, Inca are level and Sumeria is backward, missing Metallurgy.

I'd stop research after MT. Although we will get the free tech in the IA, which will allow us to trade something. Persia is the runaway civ, but Sumeria leads in score and culture.

900 AD save

 

[Aggie]

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie (just played)
Microbe (up)
ThERat (on deck)
Gyathaar
Greebley
LKendter

 

[ThERat]

what's our short term strategy? get salt from Persia, so we got 20 more turns of peace? we have 14 left anyway.
but we got no horses, should we fight Hittites for a while to get rid of Adana?

 

[Aggie]

We already have horses from Sumeria. And salt from Persia, but if we get them to declare (by trying to kick them out of our lands or another way) we will be at war a lot sooner than in 14 turns.

I guess that it can't harm a lot us to stay at peace for 15 turns, but this depends on the developments. It would be nice to keep Persia from Cavalry, but I think that won't work and certainly not if we wait too long. I think that we need at least 15 Sipahi, which we can have very soon indeed. We also need muskets.

EDIT: I like us too fight Persia. They are the big threat and we shouldn't allow them to grow. I wouldn't have made peace, but had to for Metallurgy and Saltpeter. If we can cripple them and raze about 3 core cities, then it's time to look at Hittites, Sumeria and Inca.

 

[ThERat]

We already have horses from Sumeria. And salt from Persia, but if we get them to declare (by trying to kick them out of our lands or another way) we will be at war a lot sooner than in 14 turns.

now that you mention it, I can see it. did you edit your post or am I really getting horrible senile

agree with your other plans

 

[Aggie]

I mentioned it, but I will now put the Sumerian deal in Italic as well, so it sticks out.

 

[microbe]

OK I played one turn and here is the situation.

Hitties MA with Persia vs Sumeria.

1. Military+72gpt could give us ToG from Persia, and could get us into Industrial Ages, but then we'd be locked into longer peace (20 turns). We could build more sipahi in the mean time.

2. We could sell MT to other AI to get Magnetism, and/or sell to Persia for its 1438g+some gpt, and attempt a steal at some point (in 10 turns) to get ToG. In the mean time we build Sipahi. We could build only 2 in 10 turns though.

3. Get Persia's 1438g by gpt, upgrade our 4 vet knights and attempt a steal immediately for ToG. If it succeeds, it's definitely the best plan. If not, we are at war and only have 4 sipahi.

I am not sure which way to go. I like to have more sipahis (like 10+) before we fight Persia.

Also, how is the idea that a short war with Hitties? We could raze the choke and get our horses back, and get us a GA. Maybe we can even build Newton or Shakespear by it (or not?).

I'll play the rest tomorrow and give you a chance for discussion.

 

[Aggie]

OK. Opportunity knocks!

I'm very afraid of the Persian cavalry/rifle combo that WILL come. But naturaly we can't avoid it. They will have them in 5 turns or earlier anyway.

We really want rifles too.

It might indeed be best to deal with Persia to get us in the IA. This may make it possible to sell a free tech to Persia, giving us a lot of money and gpt. Although the gpt shouldn't blind us. If feel that we will be at war again before the 20 turns are up.

EDIT: We might even be able to go for ToE.

microbe might be right that a Hittite short war is a good idea. They COULD however ask the Persians/Sumerians to join. Can we afford that?

 

[LKendter]

My tactic is to redline the Persian troops and only attack the units when I can get to a safe position again.

That sounds familiar. That was the same tactic I was using with the one exception of some yellowed units to raze the city.

I'd stop research after MT.

Does this mean you are hoping for conquest with Sipahi? Even they have trouble with rifles...

 

[Aggie]

Lee, no research at all anymore? No I don't mean that this drastically! Good thing that you ask me this I meant that we shouldn't needlessly spend money while we can buy our way into the IA. We'd need the money for ugrades. And once we have enough troops to start doing damage we could go researching again.

But as soon as we have a chance to get ToE we should go for it I'd say. The AI will research the government techs first, so we'd have a chance to go to Scientific Method.

Things have changed a bit now. We CAN get into the IA which changes everything (except for the need for more Sipahi).

 

[Greebley]

I don't mind 20 turns of peace with Persia. We can afford to attack other civs in this game.

I would like to enter the IA and see where the coal is. If there is one nearby that may determine who I would like to attack.

 

[LKendter]

I don't understand why we are researching ToG at 40% (losing money) when Persia already has it. I stop research.

I can sum that up in 1 word - Newton's. Persia still isn't building it after your turns. Regardless of how we want to win I feel Newton's is needed to keep up with research in the IA. In addition, it greatly increases the odds for the backup plans of Space and 20K.

 

[Greebley]

Given that we lost our horses, I think attacking hittites and removing that town makes sense to me. Lets grab the choke again. (i.e. put a unit there so it isn't resettled)

 

[Aggie]

I can sum that up in 1 word - Newton's. Persia still isn't building it after your turns. Regardless of how we want to win I feel Newton's is needed to keep up with research in the IA. In addition, it greatly increases the odds for the backup plans of Space and 20K.

I understand the reason and I really love to have Newton. But I bet that we will lose a Newton race in a cascade. The AI is building Smith, Shakes and Bach. Also: I felt that we needed troops and money in a war vs the super-power and that we didn't have room for 14 turns of research towards ToG losing money. If we buy ToG now we are only 3 turns later than with a self-research.

I agree with Greebley on the choke.

 

[microbe]

Summary: some difficult decisions to make, but in the end we control the choke, get a GA, Newton due next turn, have Nationalism and 1294g, and are still making +206gpt!

preturn: Hitties join the party and MA against Sumeria.

910AD: We get Military Tradition.

Now what to do? We can build a sipahi every 4 turns, but we could also build Newton's in 16 turns if we have the tech. I think it's worth having Newton's and then focus on military for the whole Industrial Ages. And what if we have an GA?

I sell MT to Persia for 36gpt+1437g (full price).

I upgrade 8 knights and 3 pikes by 990g.

We could sell MT+450g to get Magnetism from Hitties, but then it'd have cavs, so no way. I set research to ToG in 6 turns with -40gpt (MM very important. By one less commerce it'd be 7 turns).

MT to Sumeria for Navigation+28g+27gpt. I get Navigation as we could use Magallan's as prebuild for Newton's. With GA this is going to be faster.

920AD: Upgrade two more pikes. Declare on Hitties and move trebs next to Adana. We have 3 muskets defending, and 3 elite knights, but the elite knights show on top.

IBT 6 Hittie knights come out and some enter our territory, but none attack our fortified elite knight and our treb stack!

930AD: I sign RoP with Sumeria so it could move faster.

We lose a sipahi and raze Adana (3 muskets + LBM).

Kill 3 knights.

940-950AD: Kill some units at the choke. It's great killing zone.

IBT Persia starts JS Bach.

960AD: Hitties agree to talk, and it has MT now. I make peace and pay 2g for Magnetism. What a nice war with only 6 sipahi to use!

I then move musketman onto the choke.

IBT we enter IA and draw Nationalism as free tech! This is terrific. Inca builds Smith's.

970AD: Persia is up only Communism.

I shut off research for now.

Sumeria seems to have no saltpeter. It's tough for knights and pikemen to fight cav and riflemen, so at some point we need to help them.

990AD: IBT Persia gets a leader.

1000AD: We'll get Newton next turn.

I'll stop here.

We'll get Newton next turn. I think we need it more than Shakespear. But if people think we want Shake, we can trade for Democracy and Free Artistry and switch to it.

Then we should go full speed on Sipahi/rifle production and start dogpiling Persia. It's still researching fast at Monarchy (it just got Steam).

I also think we should block Sumeria to get to Persia, as it's better for it to fight in its home land rather than move units to the front simply being killed by those cavs.

We should consider gifting Sumeria into IA and maybe use Nationalism to get its free tech (if it's steam). Maybe not now, but before Sumeria starts to lose cities.

EDIT: I shut off research for a couple of turns, but we should turn it back on as with Copernicus and Newton researching gives more benefit to us. We should beeline to RP.