AG7 - Revenge of the Democracy

[microbe]

2 techs for 160g + 9gpt + iron.

That's what I call "great deal" Aggie.

 

[Mark1031]

save attached I hope

 

[betazed]

Got it. Will not be able to play tonight. Will definitely play tomorrow night (that is 24 hours from now).

 

[betazed]

Hmmm... New to this particular game. So gotta be carefull...

IBT: Chinese want an alliance against the Russians. No thanks Mao.

310 AD: Sf Market -> Courthouse. Houston Market -> Courthouse. I like courthouses in games which have a lot a building to do. Like this one. French building JsBach.

IBT: Now Japan wants alliance against Russian. No thanks.

320 AD: Washington Kinght -> Knight. Ny Musket -> Musket.

330 AD: Some worker movement.

340 AD: Seattle Temple -> Courthouse. Detroit Aqueduct -> Courthouse. MM'ed to grow faster.

IBT: Bab and France sign a MA against China.

350 AD: Some deal must have ended. Gold jumps. Joan now has Military Tradition too.

IBT: Renew silk deal with Japan. Paris finished Copernicus. Besancoan finishes
Sistine.

360 AD: Some more worker movement.

370 AD: Buffalo Courthouse -> Aqueduct. Babs and Japs start Magellan. Do some deals here. Banking from Hammi for 2000G. Astro from Mao for Banking and 400G. Navigation from Toku for Banking. Two essential techs and one nonessential tech for 2400 G (our income of 10 turns). Now only Joan is ahead with two non-essential techs. MT and MT. Not the best of deals. But hey...

Change all military production to banks.

380 AD:

IBT: France finishes Magellan's. That three wonders in as many turns.

390 AD: Now France knows Physics.

400 AD: Everybody and their uncle starts on JS Bach.

The Save

 

[microbe]

Good. What are we researching now? Economics?

 

[betazed]

Good. What are we researching now? Economics?

Still min research on PP.

 

[Aggie]

ROSTER:
-Aggie-------> up
-Yom--------> on deck
-Stapel
-microbe
-Mark1031
-betazed

 

[Aggie]

IHT: The situation is healthy. However, our army could grow a bit. Otoh we need improvements like banks. I set lux to 10% and fire most of the clowns and taxmen.

Turn 1 (410 AD) Nothing much. Only France and Japan are Republics.

IT: Russia and Japan sign peace. England declares war on the Babylonians.

Turn 2 (420 AD) France still is the only civ with Physics.

IT: England and France sign a MA vs China.

Turn 3 (430 AD)

Turn 4 (440 AD) I sell world map around and travel with a caravel to uncover more of it.

Turn 5 (450 AD) It takes very long for the AI to research...

Turn 6 (460 AD) Still no other has Physics. Since we have enough money I decide to steal a tech safely from France for 1904 gold. We succeed and I pick Physics.
For Physics and 250 gold I get Military Tradition from Japan.

France has Magnetism already!

IT: Babylon and France get an alliance vs China. Japan and Babylon do the same. The French start Newton and are now officially in the Industrial Age.

Turn 7 (470 AD) China is dogpiled and it's glory is fading fast. China, Russia and England are all in trouble. Things are developing quite good. We have Military Tradition before Democracy and a couple of neighbours is simply weak.

IT: We renew our horses for gems deal with France. Only now we get 11 gpt instead of 5 gpt.

Turn 8 (480 AD) We now make 328 gpt. But the AI doesn't allow us to make nice deals. Only France is researching Our reputation is ruined. We appear to have mistreated Russia. This is probably due to the fact that Russia lost luxes they traded with us

Turn 9 (490 AD) Finally! Japan has Theory of Gravity. The only way to make deals with France now (getting Magnetism) is by renegotiating peace. I don't like to do that with a monopoly tech though...

I upgrade a couple of horses and knights to cavalry.

Turn 10 (500 AD) Really strange to see France researching the required techs and the rest behind so much. But we still have a shot at Printing Press. Min science will take another 15 turns, but we could get it in 4 with max science. Next tech for us must be Democracy. I would build the essential improvements and get the cities that have them already to train cavalry.

 

[Aggie]

ROSTER:
-Aggie
-Yom--------> up
-Stapel------> on deck
-microbe
-Mark1031
-betazed

 

[microbe]

rep is hit?

Now what? Keep building up? Or a short war against Japan or Bab?

EDIT: seems a lot of AIs declared. Have you checked what their govs are?

 

[Aggie]

We can still make deal by renegotiating peace. It is possible to include gpt then (see 5vsworld of Nad and my sid game AG8). But I didn't feel good to do it with a mono tech like Megnetism (France). We probably couldn't do anything about this, except anticipating that a civ wouldn't hold out long. That's easier said than done.

I would still build improvements like banks, courthouses, harbors, aquaducts. But the cities with these improvements should build cavalry imho.

 

[betazed]

rep is hit?

Now what? Keep building up? Or a short war against Japan or Bab?

This might be a good time to think up a long term strategy of what we are going to do. Normally I would say that France is too far away from us so start a phony war against her, get everybody on board and slow her down. But in this game variant we cannot since she is Republic.

IMHO, I guess we should do a quick war with a neighbouring civ - once we have anough cavs - to increase our size a bit, switch to Democracy and go for a peaceful space lauch. With Dem that should be easiest with the tons of commerce we will generate.

Also we can make a good run for ToE with a judiciuos pre-build. With ToE and Hoover we should be well on our way to victory with Democracy.

 

[Aggie]

betazed, there are a few things that could prevent a peaceful walk to Space. We have to declare war on every non-representative civ that attacks a republic or democracy that is at peace with us. We also have to get trade embargoes vs the non republics/democracies with the republic and democratic civs (see the variant rules of this one)...

I think that we will see a lot of fighting. I suggest to be mostly defensive in these wars as a democracy though, unless we can make quick gains without losses. Longer bloody wars are not possible in democracy, because of the revolt risk. We have to be very careful there. Quick wars to gain terrain in republic (so between now and 20 turns) is ok by me. But I have the feeling that we now have a safe haven that gets more exposed with more land...

 

[betazed]

betazed, there are a few things that could prevent a peaceful walk to Space. We have to declare war on every non-representative civ that attacks a republic or democracy that is at peace with us. We also have to get trade embargoes vs the non republics/democracies with the republic and democratic civs (see the variant rules of this one)...

Oh yes, of course. I forgot about that part of the variant.

But even then I think we can follow the general guideline above if we allow for phony wars only. Of course we can declare war but we do not really have to do much. do we? We can play just defensive and go along.

Also another question. Suppose we know that we have to declare war on some civ. Is it ok if we can get that civ to declare on us instead of declaring on them? That way in democracy we get reverse WW and can benefit. {Often times this tactic is used in real life. }

 

[microbe]

Also another question. Suppose we know that we have to declare war on some civ. Is it ok if we can get that civ to declare on us instead of declaring on them? That way in democracy we get reverse WW and can benefit. {Often times this tactic is used in real life. }

Of course. You can still do things before declaration and they might trigger their declaration on us. But if they don't we'd have to.

I agree with Aggie that we need defensible land more than more land.

EDIT: @betazed: we can still declare on France or anyone in republic/democracy.

 

[Aggie]

But even then I think we can follow the general guideline above if we allow for phony wars only. Of course we can declare war but we do not really have to do much. do we? We can play just defensive and go along.

Also another question. Suppose we know that we have to declare war on some civ. Is it ok if we can get that civ to declare on us instead of declaring on them? That way in democracy we get reverse WW and can benefit. {Often times this tactic is used in real life. }

I don't mind phoney wars. But we have to be at war when our friends are attacked. I like the idea of letting them declare, but only if we can do it easily (planting a spy once, demanding them to leave, try a tech steal).

 

[betazed]

but only if we can do it easily ...

Great. Then we should always do that. Not only can we do it easily, we can do it deterministically (the AI is very stupid about this just like it is in other things). I am sure you all know if the following trick.

Demand that the AI civ give you their core cities. Of course they will refuse. Keep demanding like 9-10 times. By that time even they will be furious with you (even if they were gracious to begin with). Then any action like asking them to leave, planting a spy or stealing a tech will lead to war even if the AI had gpt deals with you where it is making tons of money. This is a great Ai stupidity that I use regularly when I see I am about to lose a game.

 

[microbe]

Well, betazed, I personally think that would go too far.

Simply asking them to leave/stealing techs/etc is OK, but manipulating the AI attitude is like exploiting to me..

 

[Mark1031]

Has anyone looked at the culture lately? will we be able to finish space before france reaches 100K? While it is still early, once the french culture gets going I don't know how to stop it. Can we reasonably expect to invade france in later game and hold hi culture cities while in Dem? will any other civ have more than half?

 

[Aggie]

betazed, I don't like to use that trick.

Mark1031, England has more than half the culture of France. We are doing acceptable on that front as well. I think that we should build cultural improvements during this game to get half the culture ourselves.