AG7 - Revenge of the Democracy
- Thread starter Aggie
- Start date
Aggie
Deity
No problem 
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
preturn:
Great, we are at war with 3 civs and 6 turns left in anarchy. Our military includes 10 warriors, 6 spear and 5 sword. I have to move units from inner cities to the front line. Hopefully there will not be landing..
IBT China starts Sun Tzu's.
(1)610BC: not much to do.
IBT English galley and Bab bowmen show up. I have to upgrade a reg warrior to sword.
(2)590BC: I move a spear on mountain next to Houston, and see another bowman/spear. All regular though.
Good thing Bab agrees to talk and only asks for 40g. Phew..I sign peace right away.
Hmm, why did we build Denver? That will annoy the AI and probably cause a sneak attack. Plus we should plan to take out the two Japanese towns.
IBT England wants to talk! We accept a straight peace treaty.
Hmm, we lose war happiness and Washington riots. Scroll to fix those.
England starts Sun Tzu's. China starts Great Library.
(3)570BC: move a sword and spear next to Tatung.
(4)550BC: Tatung goes from size 2 to size 1. Hm? I'll wait for another sword before the attack.
IBT Babylon completes Great Library. I say we want that city.
(5)530BC: Our scout moves into China by mistake, but it finds an injured Russian MDI next to Xinjian, apparently they are at war?
Oops, just find we can buy Feudalism from England by iron+Engineering+Republic. Our trade route should be safe so deal!
(6)510BC: We are now a Republic!![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
New York is still rioting though.
We buy gems from France by horses+2gpt. It's resource to resource/gpt so should be no risk on reputation.
lux to 10.
I again see Japanese MDIs next to Xinjjan.
I think it's time for embassies. 51g with Japan: Kyoto is size 9 with 2 clowns, 3 lux, 7 pike, 11spt, 0fpt and building MDI.
Wow, this reveals the following:
Japan has MA with England/China vs Russia. Russia/Germany MA vs Japan.
Quite interesting - we really should prepare to take the two Japanese towns.
We now have the exact same score as Japan.
IBT England and Japan MA vs Germany.
(7)490BC: China agrees to talk. I kill an archer and sign peace for 140g (they pay us).
Surprisingly, we don't need to raise lux.
I send the scout back into China to watch the war.
Houston is build FP by 2spt and due in 82 turns.
I MM it to finish in 41 turns.
Upgrade two spear to pikemen.
I establish embassy with Russia. Moscow is size 5, 13spt building Sun Tzu's due in 10 turns. It has 1 MDI+3 spear. 3 lux. Is this in GA? Shouldn't..but then why a forest has 3 shields?
A new thing is Babylon has MA with Russia against China.
I'm confused. Just a few turns ago Babylon signed in China against us!
These embassies are well worth it. I establish embassy with Babylon for 81g.
It's size 7, 8spt building rax. 1 lux two clowns. 1 settler and 5 spear in it. Looks like not entirely impossible to take.
No new information from this, though.
(8)470BC: Babylon has Invention. Hmm? Maybe he doesn't need GL..
(9)450BC: ZZZ
I'll stop here to fix the turns.
There seems to be a Chinese town razed.
I still think we should prepare for quickly taking out Nagoya and Nara. I don't think we'll get the silks by culture pushing even if we rush temple now (Nagoya just expanded).
Chicago is going to riot. Be sure to fix it.
AG7-450BC
Great, we are at war with 3 civs and 6 turns left in anarchy. Our military includes 10 warriors, 6 spear and 5 sword. I have to move units from inner cities to the front line. Hopefully there will not be landing..
IBT China starts Sun Tzu's.
(1)610BC: not much to do.
IBT English galley and Bab bowmen show up. I have to upgrade a reg warrior to sword.
(2)590BC: I move a spear on mountain next to Houston, and see another bowman/spear. All regular though.
Good thing Bab agrees to talk and only asks for 40g. Phew..I sign peace right away.
Hmm, why did we build Denver? That will annoy the AI and probably cause a sneak attack. Plus we should plan to take out the two Japanese towns.
IBT England wants to talk! We accept a straight peace treaty.
Hmm, we lose war happiness and Washington riots. Scroll to fix those.
England starts Sun Tzu's. China starts Great Library.
(3)570BC: move a sword and spear next to Tatung.
(4)550BC: Tatung goes from size 2 to size 1. Hm? I'll wait for another sword before the attack.
IBT Babylon completes Great Library. I say we want that city.
(5)530BC: Our scout moves into China by mistake, but it finds an injured Russian MDI next to Xinjian, apparently they are at war?
Oops, just find we can buy Feudalism from England by iron+Engineering+Republic. Our trade route should be safe so deal!
(6)510BC: We are now a Republic!
New York is still rioting though.We buy gems from France by horses+2gpt. It's resource to resource/gpt so should be no risk on reputation.
lux to 10.
I again see Japanese MDIs next to Xinjjan.
I think it's time for embassies. 51g with Japan: Kyoto is size 9 with 2 clowns, 3 lux, 7 pike, 11spt, 0fpt and building MDI.
Wow, this reveals the following:
Japan has MA with England/China vs Russia. Russia/Germany MA vs Japan.
Quite interesting - we really should prepare to take the two Japanese towns.
We now have the exact same score as Japan.
IBT England and Japan MA vs Germany.
(7)490BC: China agrees to talk. I kill an archer and sign peace for 140g (they pay us).
Surprisingly, we don't need to raise lux.
I send the scout back into China to watch the war.
Houston is build FP by 2spt and due in 82 turns.
I MM it to finish in 41 turns.Upgrade two spear to pikemen.
I establish embassy with Russia. Moscow is size 5, 13spt building Sun Tzu's due in 10 turns. It has 1 MDI+3 spear. 3 lux. Is this in GA? Shouldn't..but then why a forest has 3 shields?
A new thing is Babylon has MA with Russia against China.
I'm confused. Just a few turns ago Babylon signed in China against us!
These embassies are well worth it. I establish embassy with Babylon for 81g.
It's size 7, 8spt building rax. 1 lux two clowns. 1 settler and 5 spear in it. Looks like not entirely impossible to take.
No new information from this, though.
(8)470BC: Babylon has Invention. Hmm? Maybe he doesn't need GL..
(9)450BC: ZZZ
I'll stop here to fix the turns.
There seems to be a Chinese town razed.
I still think we should prepare for quickly taking out Nagoya and Nara. I don't think we'll get the silks by culture pushing even if we rush temple now (Nagoya just expanded).
Chicago is going to riot. Be sure to fix it.
AG7-450BC
Aggie
Deity
Looking at the turnlog I only can say well done
ROSTER
-Aggie------------> up
-Jack Merchant (missing in action)
-Yom--------------> probably on deck
-Stapel
-microbe
This is turning into the very interesting game. There's still an open spot for anyone with deity experience and a preference for warmongering
ROSTER
-Aggie------------> up
-Jack Merchant (missing in action)
-Yom--------------> probably on deck
-Stapel
-microbe
This is turning into the very interesting game. There's still an open spot for anyone with deity experience and a preference for warmongering
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Good work Microbe!
You could have made the iron deal earlier though
.
Once again, I am convinced that telling the AI to back down, is not so bad. Of course, there is a risk for a massive invasion.
But if I would have given iron to the Babs, we would not have had war happiness, and we would not have been able to trade the iron for Feudalism.
There alwasy is some risk, but this was worth it!
About Houston: I did mine a few hills near, to make it a production powerhouse. I am not sure wheather I uploaded a well mm-ed city (we were in anarchy...), but it was my intention to first let it grow, by using all the oasis near (one can be used by another city).
About Denver: I would have bought the temple, the turn we became republic! Maybe that is a different way of game-play.... It hink you can also chop a forrest ot two first...
About the Japanese: build / upgrade some MEI and get them asap! After that, wouldn't build more MEIs, but maybe focus on libraries and markets and a knight here and there.
This game comes in an interesting phase now! I think our current situation is ok!
A last note: I will be in Burgundy, The Elzas, The Champagne and The Ardennes from may the 8th until may 15th.
Vroooooooooooom!
You could have made the iron deal earlier though
.Once again, I am convinced that telling the AI to back down, is not so bad. Of course, there is a risk for a massive invasion.
But if I would have given iron to the Babs, we would not have had war happiness, and we would not have been able to trade the iron for Feudalism.
There alwasy is some risk, but this was worth it!
About Houston: I did mine a few hills near, to make it a production powerhouse. I am not sure wheather I uploaded a well mm-ed city (we were in anarchy...), but it was my intention to first let it grow, by using all the oasis near (one can be used by another city).
About Denver: I would have bought the temple, the turn we became republic! Maybe that is a different way of game-play.... It hink you can also chop a forrest ot two first...
About the Japanese: build / upgrade some MEI and get them asap! After that, wouldn't build more MEIs, but maybe focus on libraries and markets and a knight here and there.
This game comes in an interesting phase now! I think our current situation is ok!
A last note: I will be in Burgundy, The Elzas, The Champagne and The Ardennes from may the 8th until may 15th.
Vroooooooooooom!
Aggie
Deity
I will play my turns either tomorrow or Wednesday, depending on the Sid game. When I'm up there I will spend a lot of time on that tomorrow.
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
Originally posted by Stapel
Good work Microbe!
You could have made the iron deal earlier though
Once again, I am convinced that telling the AI to back down, is not so bad. Of course, there is a risk for a massive invasion.
But if I would have given iron to the Babs, we would not have had war happiness, and we would not have been able to trade the iron for Feudalism.
There alwasy is some risk, but this was worth it!
I'd agree with you if you established embassies first.
I think the reason why we were so lucky was that AI got into wars themselves. For example, I suspect the Bab/China MA was broken due to Bab/Russia MA vs China.
Without knowing the situation I wouldn't have risked a dogpile.
EDIT: Germany is in Ancient Ages still lacking Currency, Construction and Republic. There is a little chance that he gets Monotheism as free tech. Do we want to try that?
Aggie
Deity
I appears best to switch you with Stapel then Yom...
Aggie
Deity
IHT: Things are looking good! I switch Chicago to marketplace and hire a scientist. Market is rushed. This city is making a lot of money! I swap a number of laborers to food rich tiles. About 5 cities will grow faster without losing money or production.
IT: Washington, Philadelphia: MDI->MDI.
Turn 1 (430 BC) We need more workers. 10 is by far not enough. Some of the cities with a lot of corruption are switched to them. I upgrade a couple of warriors and swords to MDI. We now have 6 of them. I think we need 12 (6 per city, I like overkill ).
Babylon knows Invention, others are equal to us. Except for the scientific Germans.
IT: New York: MDI->market. New Orleans: worker->worker.
Turn 2 (410 BC) We now have 10 MDI's after upgrades. All except Japan and Germany know Invention now.
Turn 3 (390 BC) Temple rushed in Denver. Germany is almost gone, but COULD help us out. So I give Germany Currency and Construction for Monarchy and 7 gold. The get Engineering as their free tech, so no trades
Monotheism would have been ideal.
IT: Washington, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Seattle: MDI->market, library or courthouse. Denver: temple->worker.
Turn 4 (370 AD) We have enough MDI's now. Japan has Invention. This is a nice tech to get out of the peace deal. We will be ready to invade next turn.
IT: Japan wants us in an alliance vs Germany. I decline. England and Babylon sign a MA vs China.
Turn 5 (350 BC) I ask Japan Ivention for peace. They decline, so I declare war on Japan. Two MDI's take two Japanese workers. Only now do I see that we have German and English slaves. According to the variant rules they must be returned to Germany and England.
IT: A Japanese galley appears east of our lands. MDI's will follow it.
Turn 6 (330 BC)
Siege of Nagoya:
-Vet MDI vs reg spear on hill: 3-3, MDI wins.
-Reg MDI vs reg spear on hill: 3-1, MDI wins
-Reg MDI vs reg spear on hill: 3-1, MDI wins and we take Nagoya. We rename it to One Horse Town. Captured slaves move to Washington.
Siege of Nara:
-Vet MDI vs reg spear on flat: 2-3, spear wins
-Vet MDI vs reg spear on flat: 3-2, MDI wins
-Vet MDI vs reg spear on flat: 3-0, MDI wins
-Vet MDI vs 1 HP reg spear on flat: 0-4, spear wins and promotes
-Vet MDI vs 2 HP reg spear on flat: 2-2, MDI wins, promotes and we take Nara.
Both cities have lots of resistors, but we are not allowed to starve them...
I send an English worker home (naturally without asking something in return!) and they get polite.
Turn 7 (310 BC) A German slave is returned. The Japanese galley is a concern, so I train a few horses to quickly reach the outposts of our empire.
I sort of accidently rush a market in Philadelphia for 300 gold. I think it's no real mistake to have it ready 15 turns earlier though.
IT: The Japanese galley returns, which is tactically unwise Philadelphia: market->library, Detroit: library->market, New York: horse->market, Detroit: horse->courthouse,
Turn 8 (290 BC) Germany and English slaves are returned to the rightfull owners. Atlanta is about to riot, so I rush the market there.
IT: Atlanta: market->library. We now make 147 gpt
Turn 9 (270 BC) We make peace with Japan. The deal includes Invention for 36 gpt. A discount of 25 gpt at least. I then return the two slaves to Japan. I didn't use them to lower the price, that would be a nono.
It's unbelievable, but no-one has a tech over us!!
I hire a taxman in New York to prevent it from rioting. I like to see a market rushed there, once we have the money.
IT: Japan destroyed the Germans. Washington: library->temple. The resistance in the former Japanese towns ends.
Turn 10 (250 BC) Nothing much.
The AI loves wars in this game. This probably is the cause for the slow tech pace. We should therefore play as follows imho:
-Build up our empire with markets, libraries, courthouses, banks, universities, temples
-Workers. We need a lot more of them. About 30 will do.
-Create a decently sized army to be prepared when a civ tries to invade us.
We have to follow the tech path towards Democracy, but I'm sure that we will be able to get the much needed war techs due to trade and or pointy stick.
It may be a very good idea to trade with China. They have dyes!
250 BC save
IT: Washington, Philadelphia: MDI->MDI.
Turn 1 (430 BC) We need more workers. 10 is by far not enough. Some of the cities with a lot of corruption are switched to them. I upgrade a couple of warriors and swords to MDI. We now have 6 of them. I think we need 12 (6 per city, I like overkill
).Babylon knows Invention, others are equal to us. Except for the scientific Germans.
IT: New York: MDI->market. New Orleans: worker->worker.
Turn 2 (410 BC) We now have 10 MDI's after upgrades. All except Japan and Germany know Invention now.
Turn 3 (390 BC) Temple rushed in Denver. Germany is almost gone, but COULD help us out. So I give Germany Currency and Construction for Monarchy and 7 gold. The get Engineering as their free tech, so no trades
Monotheism would have been ideal.IT: Washington, Philadelphia, Atlanta, Seattle: MDI->market, library or courthouse. Denver: temple->worker.
Turn 4 (370 AD) We have enough MDI's now. Japan has Invention. This is a nice tech to get out of the peace deal. We will be ready to invade next turn.
IT: Japan wants us in an alliance vs Germany. I decline. England and Babylon sign a MA vs China.
Turn 5 (350 BC) I ask Japan Ivention for peace. They decline, so I declare war on Japan. Two MDI's take two Japanese workers. Only now do I see that we have German and English slaves. According to the variant rules they must be returned to Germany and England.
IT: A Japanese galley appears east of our lands. MDI's will follow it.
Turn 6 (330 BC)
Siege of Nagoya:
-Vet MDI vs reg spear on hill: 3-3, MDI wins.
-Reg MDI vs reg spear on hill: 3-1, MDI wins
-Reg MDI vs reg spear on hill: 3-1, MDI wins and we take Nagoya. We rename it to One Horse Town. Captured slaves move to Washington.
Siege of Nara:
-Vet MDI vs reg spear on flat: 2-3, spear wins
-Vet MDI vs reg spear on flat: 3-2, MDI wins
-Vet MDI vs reg spear on flat: 3-0, MDI wins
-Vet MDI vs 1 HP reg spear on flat: 0-4, spear wins and promotes
-Vet MDI vs 2 HP reg spear on flat: 2-2, MDI wins, promotes and we take Nara.
Both cities have lots of resistors, but we are not allowed to starve them...
I send an English worker home (naturally without asking something in return!) and they get polite.
Turn 7 (310 BC) A German slave is returned. The Japanese galley is a concern, so I train a few horses to quickly reach the outposts of our empire.
I sort of accidently rush a market in Philadelphia for 300 gold. I think it's no real mistake to have it ready 15 turns earlier though.
IT: The Japanese galley returns, which is tactically unwise
Philadelphia: market->library, Detroit: library->market, New York: horse->market, Detroit: horse->courthouse, Turn 8 (290 BC) Germany and English slaves are returned to the rightfull owners. Atlanta is about to riot, so I rush the market there.
IT: Atlanta: market->library. We now make 147 gpt
Turn 9 (270 BC) We make peace with Japan. The deal includes Invention for 36 gpt. A discount of 25 gpt at least. I then return the two slaves to Japan. I didn't use them to lower the price, that would be a nono.
It's unbelievable, but no-one has a tech over us!!
I hire a taxman in New York to prevent it from rioting. I like to see a market rushed there, once we have the money.
IT: Japan destroyed the Germans. Washington: library->temple. The resistance in the former Japanese towns ends.
Turn 10 (250 BC) Nothing much.
The AI loves wars in this game. This probably is the cause for the slow tech pace. We should therefore play as follows imho:
-Build up our empire with markets, libraries, courthouses, banks, universities, temples
-Workers. We need a lot more of them. About 30 will do.
-Create a decently sized army to be prepared when a civ tries to invade us.
We have to follow the tech path towards Democracy, but I'm sure that we will be able to get the much needed war techs due to trade and or pointy stick.
It may be a very good idea to trade with China. They have dyes!
250 BC save
Aggie
Deity
ROSTER:
-Aggie
-Jack Merchant (missing in action)
-Yom--------------> on deck (away until may 7th)
-Stapel-----------> up ( away from may 8th until may 15th)
-microbe
-open spot
-Aggie
-Jack Merchant (missing in action)
-Yom--------------> on deck (away until may 7th)
-Stapel-----------> up ( away from may 8th until may 15th)
-microbe
-open spot
Stapel
FIAT 850 coupé
Got it!
I already was convinced stuff was looking quite good.
I agree with your plan Aggie.
I already was convinced stuff was looking quite good.
I agree with your plan Aggie.
microbe
Cascaded Mansion
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 4,596
For some reason I cannot download the save.
Question 1: if A declares on B, both are Republic, and then A goes to Monarchy due to WW, are we required to MA with B?
Quesition 2: if B then goes to Monarchy also, and MA expires, we can make peace with A. What if B then goes back to Republic? Are we required to MA with B again, even when we have to break the peace treaty with A?
Question 3: similar to question 1, if A declares on B, both are Monarchy, and then B switches to Republic? (not very likely)
Question 1: if A declares on B, both are Republic, and then A goes to Monarchy due to WW, are we required to MA with B?
Quesition 2: if B then goes to Monarchy also, and MA expires, we can make peace with A. What if B then goes back to Republic? Are we required to MA with B again, even when we have to break the peace treaty with A?
Question 3: similar to question 1, if A declares on B, both are Monarchy, and then B switches to Republic? (not very likely)
Aggie
Deity
We have to MA only if a monarch, communist, fascist or feudalist state declares war on a republic or democracy. So not when the agressor starts as a republic or democracy.
We have to respect treaties, even with 'evil empires'.
In this case we also don't have to step in and help.
I really like the idea to always support the republic and democracy, but that would make things too hard. Therefore:
-When A declares on B and A is monarchy while B is republic we should help AFTER all the deals with A are expired. But we have to keep in mind that we aren't allowed to trade with A anyway (we have to get trade embargoes vs the non-representative governments).
-We should always respect deals. So when A is republic and we have a trade deal and then they go to Communism, we have to respect our deal until it expires. But then we immediately have to get embargoes vs them.
-We don't have to help every republic in every war. Only when they are attacked by a non-representative state.
Some things that I think is good to keep in mind:
-We are allowed to declare war on a republic or democracy, however when we have trade embargoes with them vs another this will be more difficult.
-We don't always have to be active in every war. That would get our war wearines to level 3 (revolt) too easily.
-We need to be a strong nation (military) as soon as we turn democratic. Only when we are strong we can avoid revolt.
-Police Stations and the Universal Suffrage are very important for us (reduction of war weariness)...
EDIT: I know that trade means resources and luxuries for the AI. But I want to add technology to this. We are not allowed to trade Technology with the non-representative governments. They will be the slower researchers anyway. So I am not afraid that we will be backward because of this. I makes the library and university more important to build!
We ARE allowed to steal from them of course!
Aggie
Deity
Hi Mark. Well, you are member of CFC longer than I am To be honest I really don't know how to judge your skills. But when you say that you have beaten Deity and Sid... It would be nice when you join the discussion. That would certainly make that more clear to me. Shall I put you on the end of the roster? I am certainly very curious how you will play first ten turns. This is a difficult deity variant!
To be honest I really don't know how to judge your skills. But when you say that you have beaten Deity and Sid... It would be nice when you join the discussion. That would certainly make that more clear to me. Shall I put you on the end of the roster? I am certainly very curious how you will play first ten turns. This is a difficult deity variant!Sure, that sounds good. Well I hadn't played for quite a while but got back in recently with C3C. Sid win was your AG8 SG. Diplo win but I'll take it. As far as this game goes it looks like you're in surprisingly good shape for a deity game at this point. I suspect that our best bet will be a space win since it will be very difficult to capture and hold large numbers of cities for domination without starving or razing. I'd be inclined to grab as much as we can to the south as soon as possible to develop 2 good cores early before various game restrictions come into play. I assume we're not allowed to attack republics so that if Japan/china goes republic then southward expansion and thus all useful expansion would be stopped.
Oops I see we are allowed to declare/manipulate wars with rep/dem. Southward expansion still critical of course but not as urgent.
Oops I see we are allowed to declare/manipulate wars with rep/dem. Southward expansion still critical of course but not as urgent.
Aggie
Deity
Mark, good to hear that you won my Sid SG. Now we have to follow in your footsteps
We are allowed to attack a republic or democracy. I gave that info 5 posts up. I think I copy that info in the first post as well.
ROSTER:
-Aggie
-Jack Merchant (missing in action)
-Yom--------------> on deck (away until may 7th)
-Stapel-----------> up ( away from may 8th until may 15th)
-microbe
-Mark1031
We are allowed to attack a republic or democracy. I gave that info 5 posts up. I think I copy that info in the first post as well.
ROSTER:
-Aggie
-Jack Merchant (missing in action)
-Yom--------------> on deck (away until may 7th)
-Stapel-----------> up ( away from may 8th until may 15th)
-microbe
-Mark1031
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