AG8 - Let's try Sid

It sounds good to me too, Nad.

Another thought: Do we want to capture cities or Raze them? Razing hurts our relations with other civs (which may be already shot), but capturing runs the risk of flips which I think adds substantially to war weariness. I realize this isn't quite an either or question; there is no reason not to keep small towns in reasonable locations, it is more for the larger cities. I usually like to keep cities, but am wondering in this case. We probably will hit max WW, but it might be nice to put it off as long as possible (which also means offensive wins are better than defensive - I wish they would change that to defensive losses and not the fact the unit was attacked).
 
It is quite easy to minimise the chance of flips if we do take a few of their cities. The main point is to starve to size 1 in EVERY case - NO EXCEPTIONS! This is especially important on Sid where the culture ratio is likely to be in the region of 10 to 20.

The other big :nono: you see a lot is 4 or 5 units in a size 4+ city where there are still resistors. You should move the units out unless you can get 15+ units there (more in some cases), just leave a couple of fast moving attackers nearby to retake it if does flip. Often 2 or 3 fast attackers can cover at least 3 AI cities.

Of course I am probably telling you nothing you don't already know, but I've seen Deity games where these kinds of guidelines are not followed. :eek:
 
AG8, Let's Try Sid, inherited turn 600AD

First things first: set all cities to maximize production ;)

I notice we have our entire core completely undefended. Whilst I understand the reasons for this, I really do not like it. I share the suspicion (though it could be an urban myth) that empty cities encourage AI aggression. Moreover it is extremely unwise strategically, since it places eggs in one basket. Pre-rails it is very dangerous, since if we ever get into trouble from a landing in that area, it means that reinforcements are far away. I will be looking to get token defence into most cities by the end of my turn, to allow at least some form of defence to be possible.

Diplomacy-wise we are looking good. We're also doing very well on resources, with 2 saltpeter hooked and a 3rd about to be hooked. If the Byzantines can't get hold of saltpeter soon we'll blitz them out of existence with cavalry

Cities generally good; make some significant gains from micromanagement, but build projects spot-on. Start a couple more settlers for future availability. After banks I'll be training many more knights and muskets. In terms of terrain improvement I think we've gone way overboard with irrigation! I'll be looking to concentrate on more mines, and will even change existing irrigation to mines in cities that are at or approaching size 12 to maximize production.

Apart from the empty cities the unit positioning is top-notch. I think the cats will best be used on defence, so I'll be looking to move them back into Bangalore at some stage. Like Ted, I am a little concerned by the Byzantine dromons moving along our shores, so shuffle more knights into the area, and also shuffle a couple more mounties for upgrade.

All set for my first Sid war turns!

IT: Byzantine foot units move towards Bangalore. Just realized we need to protect one crucial jungle tile with a road on it, otherwise our cats can't get back to Bangalore! It's now occupied by a half-dozen Byzantine units, so I will proritize clearing that square to prevent the road being pilaged. Dromons sail along our coast.

Oporto (Portugal) completes Smith's.

Turn 1, 610AD: some excellent cat bombardment results; we kill 3 pikes and 4 spears for the loss of 1 knight, who lost 4/4 attacking a 2HP spear. I then sign in Portugal against Byzantium for 32gpt. Rush walls in Bangalore, since there will be a significant stack outside in a couple of turns. I then move a number of units onto the crucial jungle tile...this risks losing some units in the interturn but I don't want our artillery units stranded!

Inca, lacking chemistry, have picked up astronomy. Renegotiating peace is the only option to purchase it, and it makes a huge difference! Without renegotiating peace, chemistry + 400g was doubtful to get astronomy; with the peace renegotiation, the Inca now pay US all their gold to swap the techs! We get 33g + 3gpt in the tech swap. By my estimation the Inca are paying us around 1000g to keep the peace!!! Clearly our power rating is giving us a massive advantage - we should bear this in mind for future use. (What is more, before the peace renegotiation the Inca were furious with us...after the renegotiation they are only annoyed!)

IT: that was quick. Already 4 Portuguese carracks are in the area...I wish they'd attack the Byzantine dromons instaed of sailing by :rolleyes:

The casualties in protecting the jungle road are not too bad: we lose a knight and spear, but kill 2 longbows and 4 MDI and hold onto the tile.

Turn 2, 620AD: since I need to move the cats back into Bangalore I can't bombard with them this turn. Kill a pike and spear to clear the path and then move to hole up in Bangalore.

Renegotiate lux deal with Portugal, they now throw in 15gpt as well. War weariness is already significant, 21% in Salamanca. Lux rate increased to 20%.

IT: lots of Byzantine units turn back, demonstrating AI 2-front syndrome. A jungle road is pillaged but it doesn't matter much now that our cats are safe in Bangalore. Dromons keep approaching menacingly.

Number of banks complete, and knights/muskets are trained in accordance with the shield output of the town (10/12/20 spt = muskets, 14/18/24 spt = knights).

Turn 3, 630AD: kill 2 pikes and a longbow with elite knights, but no leader.

IT: WTH? Portugal drops a group of units in our territory, miles from the front line. They're not next to a city, so it doesn't look like a sneak attack, but they don't have rop to use our roads...wierd, maybe it's just silly AI behaviour.

Then the desired effect, Byzantium signs in Rome against Sumeria :goodjob:

AG8SidWar630AD.jpg


Byzantines pillage another tile.

Turn 4, 640AD: I'm not taking any chances, so shuffle units in case of Portuguese betrayal. Their "stack" consists of a musket, longbow and ancient cavalry.

Woo-hoo, I love it when a plan comes together!

AG8SidBBK.jpg


Leader-fishing has the desired effect, and we now have a knight army. This is enough now to go on the offensive, so move both armies and a dozen or so knights towards the Byzantine city to the south.

IT: the treacherous bar-stewards :mad:

AG8Portuguesebetrayal.jpg


Portugal declares war and the ancient cavalry kills our spear, but thanks to the unit shuffle we keep the city. This is a prime demonstration of why I don't think we should leave cities undefended. Maybe that has attracted the Portuguese to make this disgusting sneak attack? Their carracks sailing along our coast looked so innocent, as they were our allies against Byzantium. It was lucky that our north coast was defended better than our south coast, as this enabled me to shuffle units...otherwise we'd now be down a city...

The loss of gems is offset by war happiness; I cycle through all cities to be sure, but there are no impending riots.

Turn 5, 650AD: I will play this turn to tidy up, and then pause for a team discussion, since the betrayal is a major event and could prove a turning point.

Kill spear and longbow to clear the way to the Byzantine city. Knight army kills 2 pikes, mountie army kills a pike and spear, a knight then loses to an unfortified veteran spear without scratching it, but then 2 other knihts kill the spear and a 1HP MDI, and the large city of Sardica is razed! That's got to hurt!

AG8Sardica.jpg


The armies are in bad shape... the knight army has 7/13HP left, the mountie army has 6/13HP...I hope the Byzantines do not counter attack them, but to be on the safe side I move a number of knights onto that tile and fortify them. The knight army is still on top, but it should fend off at least one attack, and if it survives injured then hopefully the knights can take the brunt of the attack. Then again, the Byzantines may not attack it. To make extra sure I kill 3 loose longbows in the area with knights...this risks losing the loose knights in the interturn, but they might survive or retreat, and even if they don't, if they distract attacks from the armies they will have done their job.

In the north I have to attack the Portuguese units to keep our cities safe; 3 knights kill the musket, ancient cavalry and longbow without loss, and the problem is temporarily averted.

I'm going to hand off here: a lot of units are fortified and have movement left. I took the opportunity to upgrade all the cats to trebuchets. We need some team discussion about what we do now...do we draw in allies against Portugal (the Inca and Rome?) and turn this into a full world war? Do we ally with Sumeria against them? Do we try to carry on and make peace with them asap, and hope they don't draw in other allies? We have different options to consider.

I've only played 5 turns thus far. I could play the remaining 5 after a team discussion, or I can hand off here, either option is fine with me (though I might be a bit slowing playing the second half - there's a test match and the FA Cup Final going on tomorrow!).
 
First of all: well done :) Although it was risky to have the armies this wounded... I really like you to finish 10 turns. I maybe should have asked TedJackson the same. I do appreciate that you asked for a group discussion though.

As I see it I expect that before long we will have the world vs us if we do nothing about it. Portugal is rich. So to avoid the biggest troubles I would draw Sumeria into the battle vs Portugal (and all other civs that want to fight us). And expect a betrayal of the Romans and the Inca. I can't imagine that Portuguese troops would now go after us. Byzantine lands are closer. So I really dare to predict that we won't get a mass invasion from them.

We despreately need Sumeria as our ally imho. They would take 5 cities without any difficulty, because our forces are in Byzantine lands (rightly so).

EDIT: I expect a lot more armies if we keep doing what we are doing :)

EDIT2: If we indeed get another army, it should go on a pillaging mission. If MELI1 showed me one thing then it's that this is ultra powerful. We can disconnect all their resources and luxuries and cripple their production and economy.
 
Unfortunately, for both the armies it was the second attack that lost the HPs. The first movement point was used on moving, the knight army lose just 2HP killing the first pike, so I felt confident to attack again, but it lost 4 in the second fight. Similarly, the mountie army lost just 3 HP in the first attack, and 4 HP in the second. I hope they can survive, it makes life a lot easier, although, as you say, we can expect to have plenty more armies in this game.

I think that if we ally with Sumeria against Portugal, we might as well ally with everyone, since we're tied in for 20 turns anyway. Portugal is top dog, and if we can get both Rome and Inca to attack them they would be severely weakened. This would also allow us leisure to go at Byzantium.

Bear in mind that for the moment Rome would accept gpt from us, since they are at war with Sumeria...this is irreleveant right now, since Rome is backward technologically, but if others also declare war on Sumeria we have a good chance to broker instead of stealing.
 
I once had a game that was ruined by taking back moves, so I was playing "what if". There was a suprise attack on a town that was taken. For that and some other reason I don't remember, I jumped back in time 5-10 turns. This time I fortified the town with several units so unit would implode vs the defense.

Well the war never happened the second time around. The reasonable explanation for this is that the AI saw well fortified cities and decided an attack wasn't worth while.

However, it also seems true that once the AI decide it is going to attack, there is nothing you can do to make it change its mind. Certainly reacting after the units land is too late.

Its the closest thing to "proof" I have that leaving a city empty does matter.

-----

I think getting allies is the way to go. We only get WW if we lose a town, defend vs a portuguese unit or enter their land. We can probably go 20 turns without doing any of that, so we get 20 turns of happiness.
We do want to be on attack though when they do land.

[Edit: I suspect the units will be safe with several knights in addition to the 2 armies. This is based on non-sid, but I don't see the AI going for such heavy defense when we have much easier targets elsewhere. I have gone to 6 hp with armies and not had problems in a case like this. I don't think SID will make any difference in this.
 
Nad said:
I think that if we ally with Sumeria against Portugal, we might as well ally with everyone, since we're tied in for 20 turns anyway. Portugal is top dog, and if we can get both Rome and Inca to attack them they would be severely weakened. This would also allow us leisure to go at Byzantium.
Click to expand...

True! I think that would be a very good thing for us. All in all things are looking very bright. We might think about making peace with the Byzantines at one point (although not now: we can use all the armies we can get and we are clearly on the upperhand :) ), but it might be worth it to keep Portugal in the ropes (with us allied with the world vs them). However, worse case scenario there would be that Portugal conquers the entire continent. That would seriously make our life more difficult in the long run. We need a weaker civ on that continent as a beachhead. Trying to invade a 1 civ continent at Sid level is brutal.

Regarding the armies: we probably won't have to fear and attack in the IT. The just are strong enough and there are enough lose units around.
 
Greebley: that is a very interesting experience. It is one of those things where no-one has offered any definitive proof of the factors affecting an AI sneak attack, but many people have suspicions and ideas. From reading his games, I know that LKendter is a strong advocate of defence in all cities for fear of AI sneak attacks or demands, and given that he has played more SGs than just about anyone else it is wise to trust that sort of experience! Thus, even if it is just regular warriors, I like to have a unit in every city. I know many people consider this a waste and extra upkeep cost for no good reason, but as you might remember from our training game, I tend to err on the side of caution ;).

I will play the 2nd half of my turns tomorrow, so there is still plenty of time for discussion.
 
Oh and my view on the war is to destroy Babylon as a power and increase our lands. I would only advocate stopping if our economy is really badly suffering and our alliances are up. Not sure if this is possible in SID, but it is what I would try.

If it does work, I would then advocate attacking Sumeria when we are ready. and finish taking the whole continent for ourselves.

Nad, Trebizond to the east that is just barely peeking out of the darkness has a new Lux - Dyes. We may want to try to grab that city next.
 
Greebley, I guess you mean Byzantines and not Babylon? ;) Regarding pillaging: I think that as long as the AI has other targets to choose (units from us, Sumeria) that a knight army is safe, even in the cavalry era (as long as it is almost fully healed). Just check the HoF attempt of SirPleb (Funnel of Doom) here and you see what I mean. In that game things are taken to the extreme, but it proves a point :)
 
Nad said:
I think that if we ally with Sumeria against Portugal, we might as well ally with everyone, since we're tied in for 20 turns anyway. Portugal is top dog, and if we can get both Rome and Inca to attack them they would be severely weakened. This would also allow us leisure to go at Byzantium.
Click to expand...
This seems the best course to me. It will keep the other continent busy and leave us relatively free to pursue Byzantium.

I don't see much point in ending the Byzantine war until either they are destroyed or WW becomes a real problem.


Ted
 
Turn 5, 650AD continued: set up the alliance network. Ally with Sumeria against Portugal for incense; sign in Rome against Portugal for banking, receiving 25g + 7gpt; sign in Inca against Portugal for 18gpt. Portugal is now at war with everyone :).

IT: lots of Portuguese ships in tha area...we must be very careful and maintain proper (and preferably fast) defence in all cities.

Our 3 knights in the open are killed, taking one horseman with them, but at least the armies are intact.

Turn 6, 660AD: bombard/redline Byzantine units to leader-fish; no luck, kill 3 pikes, 3 longbows and a spear, lose 1 MDI; stack moves back towards Bangalore.

Increase lux rate to 40% to combat war weariness. As Greebley suggested, targetting Trebizond next is the best option to get the precious luxury.

IT: Portugal drops units in our territory. Byzantines and Inca ally against Sumeria. Sumeria is now at war with all civs except us. Seeing as we will target them after Byzantium I am not unduly upset ;).

I'm going to build some temples and cathedrals to help with happiness. Since we will be at war for most of the rest of the game we may as well get the happiness improvements in as soon as possible.

Get a couple of riots from Portuguese ships moving through our coast tiles...the citizens are reassigned to high production tiles, but this means the cities do not get the commerce to keep the people happy from the lux rate, so I guess this is one disadvantage of having cities set to emphasize production.

Turn 7, 670AD: the Portuguese landing is a musket and a knight. Kill the musket with the only fresh knight we have in the area. I will defend against the knight with muskets, as the other knights we have in the area are injured.

Bombard and leader-fish without much luck.

Use our healthy treasury to upgrade as many units as possible. I think 40% lux rate is too high just to keep peripheral cities happy, so reduce the rate to 30% and hire a few more specialists. Rome has economics, which we exchange for chemistry.

IT: Portuguese knight attacks Gewauga but retreats.

Turn 8, 680AD: kill Portuguese knight. Move units about. Waiting for armies to heal so we can move towards Trebizond.

IT: lots of Byzantine movement but no attacks.

Turn 9, 690AD: Decide to move forward and capture the gold hill, to advance on Trebizond. Kill a couple of units.

Democracy is now around, but we don't need it.

IT: lots more movement but we're still not being attacked.

Turn 10, 700AD: kill a loose spear. Move large stack towards Trebizond (I think we will want to kep the city, as it has a ready-made harbour, but it will be a big flip risk, so we'll have to keep units outside). In 2 turns we will be able to attack with both armies (the knight army will have a turn to heal before the attack) and over a dozen knights. Should be enough.

The overall plan is going well. I would really like another army so we can build the Pentagon and add a unit to each of the armies. We are avoiding attacks, I think Sumeria and Byzantium are attacking each other heavily in the fog. The other continent is well and truly at war. As long as we can keep avoiding attritional war and just pick off cities with large stacks headed by the armies, we'll be making excellent progress.

AG8700ADFront.jpg
 
Preturn: Things look very good. I hit enter.

IBT: Lots of lesser Byzantine units

710 AD: First elite attack nets us the leader that was hiding from Nad. I use a settler to build New Niagra falls. The town was built to help connect up the dyes. We need one more square roaded in addition, so I send some workers to do so rather than chopping jungle. Build the (knight) army and start the Pentagon in Salamanca - By putting it on a starvation diet, it will finish in 15 turns.

I buy the Incas World map for 65 gold which is a big help as they have traded maps with everyone but Sumeria.I may want to target Byzantium resources. Boy, Portugal may be one of the strongest civs, but their land is impossible to defend. They are split into 3 distinct pieces.

IBT: Byzantines and Rome Ally against us. Will not list every unit lost, but its not a lot. Less than 1 knight lost per turn on average.

720 AD: Capture Trebizond. One nice thing: Trebizond keeps its harbor so we get the dyes. Will still build a road so I can abandon and replace the city.

730 AD: Organizational turn. Kill some of the Byzantine intruders.
20 Turn Alert: Ally Incas agains the Romans and Byzantines I don't want the Byzantines or Romans to pull the Incans into a further dogpile on us. (3 SID enemies is sufficient, I think)

Hmm... Not sure what to do about diplomacy. We have so many enemies I don't want to try a steal vs our friends. Well I will collect cash for now.

IBT: Byzantine start Newtons. They may have rifles very soon?

740 AD: A set of 3 Portuguese units are dropped off (2 Ancient Cav and knight). we only can get 2 units in the town because nearby the Byzantines drop off a pike, 2 longbow and a knight and we get 3 units in that town. I decide not to attack with the knights.

IBT: Those units that landed fight one another instead of us :lol: Byzantium lands 2 more units - a knight and a longbow.

750 AD: Attack Chalcedon. Decide to capture it as I don't want to be attacked by slower units. My armies got hurt in the attack and are low on HP. All landed intruders are killed.

760 AD: Hmm... A problem. I don't want to move my armies as they need to heal, but I don't want to leave them in a town that might flip. I decide to abandon Chalcedon after all and move some more defenders to make sure we don't have troubles A replacement for the town is on its way. Temporarily our lands are free of enemies.

IBT: WW increases 2 minor towns riot.

770 AD: I abandon Trebizond as well. Ok I guess I don't know all the rules about War Weariness. Our WW is above 100% which means 2 civs are giving us WW. How is this? For Portugal and Rome, I didn't think anything that was WW worthy happened. Lux increased.

780 AD: Adjust Lux to 40%. A few towns need taxmen, but most towns are good with this level. Our two allies are absolutely refusing to learn new techs. There is still nothing really to trade without making peace. Our armies have healed and start to line up the next attack.

IBT: Sumeria and Rome sign peace

790 AD: 5 star turn! We get 2 leaders! :band: They become armies of course. Attack on Constantanople

800 AD: I push the attack on constantanople by a little bit; attacking spears with 7 hp Armies.
We capture Constantanople and Gain Leos and the Colossus . I also mess up near Bangalore. I thought I could cover 2 Trebuchets, but am wrong. A 1 hp spear may capture them next turn.

Notes:
Probably the best turn for leaders I have had in an SG. I netted 3 total (I have done this before I think, but with about twice the number of elite victories)

We now have 4 Knight and 1 Mounted warrior armies. All were used heavily and will need to heal.

I would keep Constantanople. Leos is worth keeping.

I wouldn't worry about WW from Byzantines. We are already at max.

Byzantines are in the industrial age.

Sumeria finally has something to trade this turn They have physics. We can pay cash for it straight up if we want. I didn't trade. It is probably worth waiting for a better 2-fer.

We still have 13 turns on our Alliance with the Incas vs Byzantines and Romans.
We still have 5 turns on our Alliance with the Incas vs Portugal.
We have no outstanding deals with Sumeria. I would make peace with Portugal in 5 turns as I think this is causing some WW for reasons I am unsure of. Bombardment perhaps, but I don't remember any on my turns.

Pentagon in 6.

AG8_BC800.JPG
 
[party]

According to F3 our military is AVERAGE compared to Sumeria, the Byzantine and Portugal :D (If you go to the diplo screen the Byzantines are still strong :hmm: ) This makes it logical to continue our attack on the Byzantines until they are too small to be a threat. Then we should be able to get a few techs for peace. Next target then obviously is Sumeria.

Things on the other continent are also looking great. The top dog there is in trouble (Portugal). So the two civs in the IA are the two with the smallest army andengaged in heavy fighting :p

I would rush a few improvements in the new cities on the Byantine front...

ROSTER:
-Nad
-Greebley
-anarres-------> Up
-Aggie---------> On deck
-TedJackson
 
Good news on the leaders :thumbsup:

Armies will make all the difference to our chances of success. Good to also see that we are so strong militarily against our meighbours :D


Ted
 
Wow, some great play there!

Got it, will hopefully play in a couple of hours.
 
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