Biggest post I ever made, and thats saying something
. I was only 4.500 Characters away from the limit.
For those not interested, skip to the last Paragraph.
I am assuming that using units to replace walls will slow down the Advances the Goths make, as, in my games, they are always one of the last to get to Imperial. So, much of this is based on that assumption.
Well, fortunately, I anticipated a good response
, and left some things out of my first post, or rather, left them 'unexplained'.
LordAzreal- But neither is terribly effective against men at arms, which are obtained cheaply by the Goths. And the Goths can get cheaper spearmen as well, since their bonus applies to everything from the barracks.
I used to champion the Byzantines as well, but I continually fell prey to players skilled in using the Goths. Though the Goths aren't the civ I champion (I prefer the Huns or Mongols), I now see where they stand strong.
I suddenly see how little a Dark age rush would be, Rushing with Militia?? it may work, but whenever I play a game, everyone, everyone needs to build up some type of resources. Yes even the Goths and Huns, need some type of economy, and the dark age rush of Militia usually does nothing more than destroy some farms, if your lucky enough to get so close to the town center. Most people build a barracks within shooting distance of there town center, so the rushing civ is forced to get that close, if it wants to do any damage, and try to make up for its depleted resources. So, unless the opponent you rushed offers no opposition, its almost assured they will get to Feudal before you, and as you catch up, they will have walls and a small but well embedded army. A common strategy is to build one or two towers, within shooting distance of your Town Center, making them always being hurt by arrows no matter which they attack.
LordAzreal-
Given enough time, even a man at arms can level a section of stone walls. And as for the losses incurred by the towers, they will be easily, quickly and cheaply replaced in double.
Nothing is
That cheap, a regular man at arms cost 60 food, and 20 gold. A Gothic's Man at arms cost 50 food and 10 gold. Admirable, but most certainly, a drain on your stores. In order to take advantage of your +20 Barracks speed, you must build more units, so, for an extra 2-3 Man at Arms, the cost evens out, and your enemy will have walls and Archers to counter you, maybe even a tower or two (you dont need stone to advance ages) and when you do finally break through a portion of wall, which can be just as easy to replace as your Infantry, you must encounter your enemies 8 or so Man at arm, while you are still being attacked by archers, and\or Towers. Basically, you slowly fall behind in econmy, since you have no bonuses and are weak in tech's, by the time you hit castle, the Byzantines (-33 Imperial Age) may well be studying to get into Imperial, or are already there.
Now that your looking through my eye's
, you can start to understand why I think them weak, as the way I see it, with the Goths
first unique Tech, doesnt put you one step
above the opposition, its merley attempt to even the score.
LordAzreal-
The dark age rush is designed to prevent them from assembling a decent defence. And in the Feudal age, this effect can be extended by regularly raiding their stone mining operations. And since stone seems to be so scarce on most maps, its easy to have all of the stone mines covered in this way. If done correctly, the Goths can claim victory in the Castle Age. Otherwise, the Imperial age will yield a guaranteed victory since trebuchets will be able to take out the few walls they might throw up with stone bought at the market (and there won't be much gold if the gold mines are raided and guarded in the same way, unless you sell food, thus bumping its price down to rock bottom)
With your second sentence, you say raiding the Mining encampments will help alleviate the problem, not so, as if we follow this strategy, The Goth Civ is
Forced to raid stone encampments, further depleting their stores, because it
has to go offensive. Making it almost Guaranteed you get Castle before them, and with Castles Comes monks (relics), Fortified walls, Unique Unit, Petards (sending one in under their radar), and damage there barracks, or create a skirmish where the Visigoth army must rush to its encampments defense, because it has no walls, it must attempt to flood even a small enemy Castle Age force, with units like regular Spearmen, when it should have,
at the very least, Pikemen trying to ward of the 'regular' Cataphracts.
Because of its depleted resources, it is only in Feudal (the costs for Barrack units start going down in Feudal, it does not start in the Dark age) and struggling to catch up, and make a way to Castle age. And, if all went as planned, the Byzantines should be about to study the advance to Imperial, right when the Goths hits Castle. However, as you stated, the Castle age is where the Goths start to catch up, and they can now successfully launch a network of 7 or so barracks, producing Huskarls or Pikemen, all at cheaper cost. And even a age behind, they will keep their adversary busy. However. . .
LordAzreal-
While the cataphract is extremely powerful as an anti-infantry weapon, it is prohibitively expensive, so they can't be built in the large numbers necessary to take out entire hordes of pikemen that the Goths so cheaply afford.
Actually, they can. And they are not terribly expensive, it only costs 10 more food than a Paladin. And against an Infantry oriented civ, it more than makes up for it, besides, everyone has seen a troop of 25 paladins. I did a little testing
today, and found out the perfect non-Infantry restricted enemy for the Goths, is the Byzantines. Why you ask? I will get to that later, but for now, lets continue our little saga. As the Goths put up there Castle age, counter offensive Defense, the Byzantines should be catching up on skipped techs, and seeing as the Goths have far less to study, by the time Byzantium hits Post Imperial (for those who don't know, that means all tech that are available, are now studied leaving you free to concentrate
solely on war.) before the Goths, because of there lack of resource consuming techs, such as the monastery tech's, Guard towers, Keeps, Gold shaft mining, Plate armor, for cavalry and
Infantry, it all adds up, and the Goths reach Post Imperial at the same time, or shortly after the Byzantines! Thus, their weakness in lack of tech's evens out, in making them a weaker civ for each one of the Byzantines men, but not playing catchup, while the Byzantines start raising a massive army. And now all the 'barracks units cost less' comes into play, plus the population bonus, and the fact they dont need as many villagers. Making them just able to 'defend', if you can call it that, from the Byzantines, with the
occasional strategic offensive maneuver.
LordAzreal-
While Stone Shaft Mining isn't that helpful to the Goths in building walls and towers, it makes it easier accumulating resources for castles. Also, excess stone can be sold at the market, since it is usually the most expensive commodity anyway, thus compensating for the lack of Gold Shaft Mining.
True, and its plays a massive role in the Goths
Mad scramble to hit Post Imperial, twice as fast as the Byzantines did. But by the time you get there, your Stone is not worth as much as it once was. And now, as the Byzantines are free to concentrate on war, you will need gold more than ever, and the extra two relics the enemy got, would have helped.
LordAzreal-
Siege Rams aren't much of a loss for the Goths. Bombard cannons and trebuchets are both better siege weapons. I can't argue about the lack of cannon galleons, since I can see how the lack of them is a problem. Bombard towers aren't necessary either, as the Goths are purely offensive. Lack of Paladins and arbalests aren't really a loss on the part of the Gothic army since their strength is in barracks units. And since I only really use monks for healing (though it isn't really necessary with such huge numbers), the lack of monastery techs isn't a big loss either..
I disagree, Siege rams make
all the difference. 5 Siege rams with 6 men garrisoned in each in the case of use against the Goths it should be Champions) By the time the Ram get to the building, and you unload, you will have 30 Champions guarding them and it will immediately take out the Castle, then they will spread out, along with the Champions, who will choke up the enemies army. Then, while the towers and castles are gone, send in your Cataphracts who will take out the Infantry, and you just completed a very successful attack, completely leveling an entire area. Your next choice would be to either wait till your monks arrive, or send your cataphracts home to get healed, while your champions and rams distract the Visigoth army, long enough for the expensive units to be healed, and to prepare another invasion. They go perfect with the Byzantines, as you wont need as
many trebuchets. And you can save that 200 gold for your Cataphracts. Bombard Towers and Arbalest are very good when used with walls
. And if the Goths had the Paladin they would have at least one High Quality, versatile unit. The reason Bombard Towers are a key power when used against the Goths, is when barrack units attack a wall, they are stationary, and one Cannon ball would instantly kill them. Also, 2 onagers can take out 20 trebuchets in seconds, and 4 onagers could do it in only one shot. Making Trebuchets very vulnerable, for that type of money.
Now to the testing part, I put on a map, the Byzantines in post Imperial, and the Goths in post Imperial. Each on as equal footing as possible. One Elite Cataphract could take out 3 Halberdiers, and live with about 15 life let over, one Elite Cataphract could take out three Champions, and one Elite Cataphract could take out three Elite Huskarls. Why? Besides the Bonus, trample damage, is not to be ignored, while the halberdiers were attacking me (each one hitting me), I killed one of them, then by the time I got to the second, I only needed one swing, and same with the third. While they were attacking me, they were getting hurt?!?! Just being near the Cataphract was a problem. So how did this hold up in large scale? Sure, one Elite Cataphract can take out 3 Halberdiers, but can 25 Elite Cataphract take out 75 Halberdiers? Yes, with 13 left over. Thats a big defeat, I though the AI was to blame, because in the middle of the battle, the Halberdiers moved in the center of the fight. So, I turned the tables, and I played as the 75 Goth Halberdiers, vrs the 25 Byzantine Elite Cataphracts. And the AI lived, and with 15. Trample damage is obviously better in Numbers. Then I could simple use my +50% Healing monks, kinda like field medics, and while they werent healing, I could convert some barracks, Which is almost like creating a Military encampment, to get infantry there faster, and Also making the enemy have to retake his Own Ground! Monks are Highly underrated. Now, If I sent in 25 Cataphracts guarding two Trebuchets, and the 6 Siege Rams garrisoned with Champions on another front I could very well level the entire Empire within minutes, and while the Goths were struggling to build more units, and more barracks to use them, I could easily spend some extra gold, and make another 25 Cataphracts. To make Defeat all the more inevitable.
So, in the end it very close, I found the Goths Offense, made up for its lack of Defense, to a Degree. . . But its
is a very limited Civ. Island maps is a weakness, Choke point maps are weaknesses, because they must employ a defensive army to guard each River Crossing, or each gap in the trees, where any other Civ just needs a wall. And a tower.
I think Sandy Petersen (in a press interview), one of the main figures who designed AoK, said it right; There will still be favorite civs, and there will be endless debates about which civ is better on what map or under what starting conditions. For me, who usually plays on arena, or Fortress. The best Civ, is the one who excels at everything. The Byzantines can study
all Economy Stats (i.e. two-handed saw, Stone shaft mining) can build the best of almost every unit, Heavy Camels, Paladins, Elite Skirmishers, Arbalests, Champions, Heavy Cavalry Archers, all the ships, and has bonuses for monks. They do not have any glaring weaknesses, that makes their strategy predictable. They are Versatile, they do not have to stick to one strategy, and any bonuses they have, are a welcome surprise, but not a necessity.
BTW, Byzantines don't get Bloodlines
. I will edit it out of my other post later.
. And the fact you can make Huskarls(sp) out of Barracks doesnt make up for it, by that time, your probably dead from a rush. Second, I would choose Turks, Like I said, im not good with managing economy, and not being able to build Pikemen or halberdiers is a huge problem for me.
