Age of Mythology

You're probably right though I thought I had cleared the cache before running the newest version of the mod. I'll check it out and see if the units are getting random promotions.

One question on the design side of things; are you concerned at all that once people reach the end of the myth content they'll simply stop playing and start a new game? On a smaller map you could certainly be victorious before Enlightenment but anything with separate continents will require deep water embarkation etc. Since there are currently relatively few changes in the Empires mod and Ascension is not compatible with Myth, the game may start to feel very mundane after the Myth content finishes up. Do you think there's any room for a 'stay in myth' option? Or are you happy to have it always end, based on the fact that there will eventually be a feature-rich Empires section to play afterwards?
 
From what I understand, the myth content will eventually be compatable with ascension, just at the moment they conflict
 
One question on the design side of things; are you concerned at all that once people reach the end of the myth content they'll simply stop playing and start a new game? On a smaller map you could certainly be victorious before Enlightenment but anything with separate continents will require deep water embarkation etc.

I recently addressed some of this in the overview section on page 1 (just a couple days ago, actually), but yes. I fully expect that, depending on map type, the game might feel "over" once the mythological period finishes.

But to that, I point out two issues:
1> Previously, in vanilla, it might only take 150-200 turns to reach the Renaissance. I'm changing the game such that it's more like 300-350 turns to do the same in the Empires+Mythology pairing. That's the length of a full game in vanilla, so if after those 350 turns someone feels like they've played a complete game, then I wouldn't be surprised. Even if it's not possible to meet any of the explicit victory conditions for another couple eras, the game can still be basically over.
2> Since the Myth content is pre-Astronomy, there's no guarantee of dominance. In fact, slowing down the early eras increases the chance of a powerful competitor developing on one of the other continents, by conquering his own neighbors through the same mechanisms you used to conquer yours. My hope is that this'd make it still possible to have a competitive space race, just between a small number of powerful empires instead of a dozen squabbling nations. (Which fits with the concept of the Empires mod, as well.)

Since there are currently relatively few changes in the Empires mod and Ascension is not compatible with Myth, the game may start to feel very mundane after the Myth content finishes up.

To be clear, Ascension is not actually incompatible with Mythology in any mechanical way. (Except at the moment, where I haven't finished the Ascension transition, but that's a temporary issue; you WILL be able to use both once I'm done.) Thematically they don't mesh well, but the main reason why the two are "incompatible" is simply the endpoint issues mentioned above; if someone sees the end of the Myth era as the finale of the competitive phase of the game, then chances are there won't be much point in having future eras. Conversely, when playing an AC game I rarely start before the Industrial any more, which'd make it worthless to add the mythological content as well.

Do you think there's any room for a 'stay in myth' option? Or are you happy to have it always end, based on the fact that there will eventually be a feature-rich Empires section to play afterwards?

It's a tough question, and it's one I've gone back and forth on quite a few times. My design has been to have the Mythology content come to a definite end in the early Renaissance; you can be flexible on the exact timing, but it'd still happen at pretty much the same time for everyone. The first reason for this is simply one of scalability: I've added 83 non-Hero units in this mod, with power levels ranging from 3 to 25. But as awesome as Dragons and Colossi are, they're cannon fodder when facing Infantry (36 in vanilla, 32 in Empires) and Artillery, let alone Tanks or Bombers. So if I wanted to make it possible to keep the mythological age alive, I'd need to find some way to keep its content relevant once you've unlocked tanks and such; making Heroes and T4s scale with era would do this, for instance, but that adds a slew of balance issues. (Not to mention conceptual ones, where Achilles can now overpower a tank batallion and dragons can withstand surface-to-air missiles.)

The other problem is one of penalties. The Mythology mod adds a policy that, at the moment, gives -10% to food, -20% to production, -20% to research, -20% to gold, -1 happiness per luxury, x1.25 population unhappiness, and reduces the yields of many buildings to have them generate Favor. These are all pretty severe penalties in the early game, no question. But what happens to that gold penalty once you have Markets and Banks, each adding +25% to your income? Or the research penalty, once you have Universities and Public Schools? Or the production, once you have Workshops and Factories? And what if you can take enough time to get the flat +Gold, +Production, etc. of the various religious buildings as well? Those penalties start being less and less restrictive.

Fact is, if I allowed you to stay in the mythological eras indefinitely, you could eventually reach the point where the so-called drawbacks no longer have any major impact, while still benefitting from the linear yield increases of the religious buildings. This is the main reason behind the timing of the endpoint; any later, and it might actually be a good thing to stay religious. So I've added various incentives to NOT stay in the myth content, and I'm continuing to add more; the Crusades and Inquisition each give anti-Myth bonuses to your units, growth rates slow down as time goes on, and so on. The AI will build the Enlightenment as soon as it can, and I want the players to feel like he needs to follow suit or else he'll fall behind.

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Now, I do expect a certain feeling of loss as the mundanity of the post-Mythology content kicks in, since you won't be immediately transitioning to the futuristic content I've added. The Empires content won't be quite so pervasive, so there will be a definite change in feel. But I think of it as a transition from Checkers to Chess: same board, but a deeper game. The Mythological Age will be about a few powerful heroes fighting giant monsters, while the Empires will be about larger army-on-army sort of wars. Myth wars will be between empire A and empire B, while Empires wars will be 4-on-4 sorts of deals. So I'm hoping that people won't be TOO bored by the transition.
 
Update:
My machine will most likely stay offline for another week, although there are a couple things I'm going to try tonight. If those don't work, then it's time for a traditional Newegg shopping spree for parts. (Probably just a new MB, CPU, and RAM for now, plus a better CPU heat sink than the stock one I used last time. I'll hold off on buying a new graphics card until after Christmas.) Given the usual 4-7 business day delivery times, figure a week and a half until I'm back up and running.

Once I'm back online, then what happens next will depend on whether my data is recoverable. (It SHOULD be, but you never know.) Assuming it is, then I'll post v0.03 that very day; if not, then add a couple days while I re-do the fixes I'd put into that version. Regardless, v0.04 would come a few days later, as I've got a lot of it planned out already.

So in the interim, you can think about all of the usual balance questions. But the question I've been pondering for myself is this:
How forgiving should the minor god system be?
Right now, when an AI acquires enough favor to add a god, it'll pick one purely at random from the available choices, instead of picking one related to its needs of the moment or its personality. Likewise, when it experiences an event, the AI picks a random outcome, instead of choosing the one that gives the best immediate benefit. My intention is to bias the outcomes based on flavor ratings and such, but it's still going to be a mostly random choice.

The question before us is whether the player or AI should ever NEED to pick certain Foci or event outcomes over others. For instance, consider Happiness. At the moment, there's only a single Focus that adds Happiness (Beauty), so if you're short on happy citizens, a player would pretty much always want to choose Beauty, assuming his alignment is far enough in the E direction and his pantheon doesn't ban that one. Because of this, I've been looking into reworking certain other Foci (like Art, Justice or Balance) to add small amounts of Happiness as well so that Beauty won't be a no-brainer, sort of like how Fertility isn't the only one that adds Food and Wealth isn't the only one that adds Gold; they just add the most.
But should the balance be severe enough so that people feel like they need at least one +food focus, one +happy focus, one military-boosting one, and so on just to stay competitive? If not, then there's a real danger; if every choice is still viable, then it's harder to make the player feel like his decisions actually matter in the long term.
 
Okay, it may NOT be another week. Upon further examination, it might just be my video card and possibly some RAM that fried, and the MB might be okay. More importantly, though, I have access to my files, including the week or so of changes I made between the posted version and my last edits before the crash.

So, I'm going to post the last version of the Base and Mythology mods into the Files thread. There's just one problem: I honestly can't remember if that version actually worked. I was in the middle of fixing some things, but if it's not functional, then it's probably a very simple fix.

Now, since I can't actually PLAY the game or make edits in the current setup, there are a lot of things that I'm planning to change in the near future, like the tech bonuses. So understand that it's not really an up-to-date representation of the design.

EDIT:
For instance, I'm going to improve the Fertility/Crafts/Wealth/Beauty group to add a little Happiness at level 3; these four were a little on the weak side before, compared to some of the stuff I'd added later. I'm also going to make Art and Justice into Happiness boosters at levels 2 and 4 as well, and EVERY Basilica will add +1 Happiness (since you can only have two of these it's not unbalanced, and it makes up for the fact that those buildings now have no Priest slots). So the happiness side of thing should be a bit more manageable.
Similarly, I'm going to add yet another myth unit to the Plants focus; Dryads will move down to 2, Treants to 3, and I'll add some new unit at level 4. (Treants just aren't comparable to Dragons and such, power-wise.) I'm thinking of some sort of "nature elemental", something huge that spawns forests and such near it just by existing, and that can do some of the better terraforming actions. (Yes, I watched Hellboy 2 a couple days ago, and liked the concept of that monster.) Suggestions are welcome.
The point is, I've got a pretty long list of things that need tweaking. As soon as I have a functional machine again, I'll get all of this stuff done, and by versions .04 or .05 it should be good enough to advertise for more testers.

Now, on the subject of the version I posted, I remembered that in the Mandala view, when you click on a Focus it'll now screw up the image on the right-hand side. You see, I was switching from the small 64-pixel icons to a larger 128-pixel version, but the placeholders I was using for Foci (the Policy images) don't HAVE a 128-pixel version.
So if you want to make this look a bit better, go into Mandala.lua, and search for "IconHookup". There'll be one modifying SideFocusIcon (or it might be SideFocusImage), and on that line change the 128 back to a 64. It'll be in a screwy position, but it'll at least show the correct icon.
 
Just tried the new version and noticed that the correct original shrines are given in the capital on the first turn. On the second turn it appears that shrines are being granted for all the major gods of the AI players.
 
Dang. I swear, it was working when I was trying it out on my machine before the crash, so it has to be one of the last few things I tweaked before it all went down. So on the bright side, it shouldn't be too hard to track down once I get everything back online. I'm HOPING to have my first replacement parts tomorrow, and I'll check that then, with the goal being to have a stable version by Saturday at the latest.

This is why I wasn't sure about posting 0.03; I change a LOT of stuff as I test, so about half the time the game would have some major issue like this if I were to stop right then. It was just a toss-up whether the last version before the crash was one of the working ones or not. Most of these things cause an immediate, visible error in the Tuner, so they're not hard to fix, and so it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to get a working version out once I get my machine back... assuming the parts I've bought are enough to replace all of the broken bits. I could easily find more hardware problems and have to replace other components, too, which'd mean Monday at the earliest.
 
I continued playing the game through the end of the mythology content. Aside from the issue above, these are some things I noticed:

1) It is really unclear how much favor is needed for shrines to upgrade to churches, etc.
2) I never had anything upgrade to the fourth level.
3) Completing the Enlightenment project doesn't actually remove the mythology content.
4) The city favor screen is impossible to read. It would be helpful to cut down the number of digits displayed for the favor to just the integer or integer with 2 decimal places. I couldn't see how much I had in anything beyond the first two categories.
 
1) It is really unclear how much favor is needed for shrines to upgrade to churches, etc.

That's easy enough to fix in the City Favor UI. The thresholds are 100, 300, 600, and 1000, so it shouldn't be too hard to put that in, either directly in the readout or in some sort of tooltip help. I'll probably go with the tooltip option, because it saves space.

2) I never had anything upgrade to the fourth level.

It should only be possible to get a Basilica in your major god's two Foci and only in your capital; the primary could hit 4 at Monotheism, the secondary at Apostasy. And of course, it takes 1000 Favor in that focus. If that wasn't happening, there could be some other issue involved; I'll look into it. But it DID get to the Cathedral? It could be that you just never had enough Favor, which means I should change some of the Favor generators to build a little more.

3) Completing the Enlightenment project doesn't actually remove the mythology content.

Okay, that's a problem. Now, this MIGHT be related to whatever bug is giving you those extra shrines; if the MythStartTurn function is crashing partway through, it might never be getting to the block that handles the final downgrade.
The downgrade should be visible in the City Favor window of the mandala; the numbers should be dropping by ~100 every turn for every focus in every city. If they're doing that and the process just isn't ending, then that's one thing, but if they're not dropping at all, it's something else entirely. (Actually, I think I know what's causing it, but I'll have to wait until my computer's working again to be sure.)

4) The city favor screen is impossible to read.

Oops. My bad, yes, it was supposed to round off the values before putting them there. I'd left the decimals in for debugging purposes, and the fact that what I posted was my final test version probably meant that I never switched it back.
 
Okay, that's a problem. Now, this MIGHT be related to whatever bug is giving you those extra shrines; if the MythStartTurn function is crashing partway through, it might never be getting to the block that handles the final downgrade.
The downgrade should be visible in the City Favor window of the mandala; the numbers should be dropping by ~100 every turn for every focus in every city. If they're doing that and the process just isn't ending, then that's one thing, but if they're not dropping at all, it's something else entirely. (Actually, I think I know what's causing it, but I'll have to wait until my computer's working again to be sure.)

I wasn't seeing any drops. I played on for about 10 more turns after finishing Enlightenment before deciding to call it a game.
 
mindlar said:
I wasn't seeing any drops.

It was broken. I fixed it.

How often is the Spawn promotion sopposed to work? It hasent worked once for me.

It was broken. I fixed it.

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Since it's been kinda quiet around here, here's an update.

My computer works again.

I fixed every problem I could find in the Mythology mod. It seems to work now, although I haven't actually tried to play through a complete game. I did do a dozen or so test-case games where I artificially generated a bunch of Favor and then started the Enlightenment, and the downgrade/disbanding now seems to work correctly. But I'm sure there'll be more things I missed. I've also rebalanced pretty much everything, so I'll need a lot of feedback on which units are too good or too weak, which foci are too strong, etc.

The missing icons in the various mods have all been fixed, and the Ascension mod's conversion looks to be done, so it's ready to be posted for the first time as a complete 4-mod set. Ascension is still not compatible with the Mythology mod, thanks to the promotion cap, but I'll work on that for the next version. (That next version will also include the merging of ranged and melee promotions I've talked about.) So when I post the new versions tonight, you WILL be able to play an Alpha Centauri game by mixing Base, Empires, and Ascension, and it should be nearly identical to v1.09. (The "nearly" is because I've made a couple changes here and there.) Just remember to clear your cache first, please.

At the moment, the Mythology mod only has god icons for the first four pantheons, leaving Aztec, Sumerian, and Shinto. I'm going to try to build those atlases tonight before I post the files, which should make the mod's graphics a bit less horrible while you play. I still need to create better icons for the Foci and find 7 graphics to use for the pantheons; also, I'm still undecided about whether the pictures should be representational (a picture showing all of the major gods) or symbolic (some abstract symbol); for technical reasons I'm leaning towards the latter.
It won't take long to add these icons, the only question is FINDING them (especially the Sumerians). Also, I'm hungry so I'm going to go get dinner first.

Now, the Mythology mod still only has a single Event that triggers 10% of the time. I'm going to, at the very least, add the other four "Minor" events, and reduce the chances accordingly, but I need to fix something in the event code first. (There's a function that tells you if/when an event last occurred, but it's not working. I NEED that to work.) I'm hoping to get this fixed tonight; if I can't, then I'll leave these events at a lower percentage chance until the next time. The plan, you see, is that the 19 Events will have a cumulative 20% chance of occurring on a given turn, except that events are locked to happen no more than once per 5 turns, so you should average ~10 turns per Event. That's why the single event is set to 10% now, so if I can't get the history part working, I'll just set all five to 2% to get a similar effect.
 
I have a feeling that the Sumarian pantheon will be the last to have god icons.

BTW did you need the Aztec ones I posted?
 
I have a feeling that the Sumarian pantheon will be the last to have god icons.

BTW did you need the Aztec ones I posted?

The answers to these two statements are related; I've got the pictures you provided, but I won't put them in quite yet. The way I'm organizing this is to create two icon atlases for gods, pantheons, and foci.
Atlas #1 will has the first four pantheons' gods (#0-51), and will fit the seven Pantheon icons into the remainder of the slots.
Atlas #2 will have the last three pantheons' gods (#0-38) and the 21 Focus icons fitting into the remainder of the slots.
(That's 59 and 60 icons, respectively, for a 64-icon atlas. Except that two of the 64 slots are unavailable in the standard template, so 62 is the effective max. So doing it this way means using 2 atlases instead of 4, which means the mod isn't nearly as bloated with blank pictures.)

Now, what this means is that due to how the system indexes internally, it's just a lot easier if I do all god icons within a single atlas at the same time. So I won't add the Aztec (which you provided) or Shinto icons to the playable version of the atlases until I've got something for the Sumerians ready to go as well. Now, that "something" might be thirteen colored smiley faces, if I can't find anything soon, but there WILL be something beyond the simple tech icon placeholders I use now.
 
Heres 2 sumarian gods, were a pain to find, enki looks almost egyptian but still a decent picture
 

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It's a shame you dont have Incan or Celtic pantheons, ive found a bunch of REALLY nice pictures for them
 
It's a shame you dont have Incan or Celtic pantheons, ive found a bunch of REALLY nice pictures for them

Like I've said before, there's really nothing stopping someone from adding a new pantheon if they really want to. It's just that for balance reasons, I needed exactly seven pantheons in the base version, they needed to meet a lot of intricate criteria for balance, and it'd be best if each corresponded to 2-3 of the vanilla civs, historically. The seven I went with in the end were the best combination I could find.

I knew that the Sumerians were going to be the hardest to find good images for, but they fill a few critical niches. For instance, none of the other pantheons I could find had a major god whose primary focus would be Beauty (or any kind of happiness, really). Plenty of sun gods, war gods, death gods, storm gods, and agriculture gods, but few pantheons even had beauty/happiness gods, and none of the others would have that as part of a major god's job. And on the minor gods, I needed a pantheon with Healing, Crafts, Plants, and Darkness gods of some kind.
And it's not just about what they have, it's also what they DON'T have. Three or more of the other six pantheons already had major gods focusing on Fire, Earth, Air, Fertility, Death, Storms, Travel, and Balance. I couldn't avoid adding to ALL of these (Storms, Death, and Air get majors in the Sumerian set), but all of the other sets I tried had much more.
 
So why is Anu Death/Darkness?

Anu was just a tough one to fit in. He was a sky god, god of the heavens, god of the afterlife, et cetera. The problem was, if I gave him Justice, then I'd have a harder time fitting Utu in (since his main role was judge of the afterlife). Likewise, all of the air/storms stuff was clearly Enlil's area, so it was just a bit tough to find something to give Anu.

Now, I could shift Utu to Death and make Anu a Justice/Darkness god (or the inverse). But I've already got four major gods with Justice, so this'd work better if I could shift one of those others away from that focus, preferably to something like Crafts or Healing. The problem is that the only two pantheons that could conceivably do that sort of move are Hindu and Shinto. In Hindu I could move Shakti to Fertility/Healing, but that's the inverse of Isis (Egyptian). Shinto has Sarutahiko's secondary at Justice; I'd love to move that to Healing or Crafs, but the only other option in his lore is as god of crossroads and pathways, which could work for Travel.

So I could move Utu to Death, Anu to Darkness/Justice, and Sarutahiko to Earth/Travel. This'd at least result in more distinctive combinations, so I'd be inclined to try it.
The other thing I was thinking of changing is in the Shinto pantheon, switching Izanagi from Fertilty to Healing. Besides fitting his story a bit better, it'd add another healing god (which I really need) and make there be one pantheon with no fertility god. (Shinto would lack Beauty and Crafts as well, so it'd really be a yield-light set.)
 
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