Age of Mythology

Okay, doing a little rearrangement of foci, and I've got two possibilities I need to decide between:

Option 1: Thor is changed from Air/Storms to either Air/Healing or Storms/Healing. (If I took the latter then I'd need to find someone else for Air, unless I want to get rid of the rule where every pantheon has the four elements. Freyr might be able to be worked in somewhere, but that'd require getting rid of another god.)
Option 2: Shiva is changed from Death/Storms to Death/Healing. Shiva is the god of destruction, but he's also about rebirth and immortality.
Option 3: Enlil (Sumerian god of Storms) is changed from Storms/Air to either Storms/Balance or Air/Balance.

You see, I have the following problems:
1> Thor and Enlil are inversions of each other (Storms/Air vs Air/Storms). I'm already shuffling Anu around, which'll break the other inverted pair, so it'd be nice to clear up both at once.
2> I have too many storm gods in general, and especially major ones. I really NEED to reduce this by 1.
3> I don't have nearly enough major gods in Healing or Knowledge. I can't do anything about the Knowledge one, since everyone other than the Aztecs has a god in that one already. But if I could shift even one major to Healing, it'd help.

In terms of game balance, option 1 (especially the move to Air/Healing) is by far the best as it fixes all three of these, but combining 2 with 3 would also have the same three effects.

Thoughts?

Don't know if you have a God for fertility in the Norse Pantheon but traditionally Thor was invoked by worshippers as such and also called upon to hallow marriages (another link to fertility). Of course Healing would work as well along with Storms but if you had a choice between the 2, fertility would be more accurate.
 
Don't know if you have a God for fertility in the Norse Pantheon

Freyja has Fertility pretty much locked up for the Norse. Or at least, while she's fairly flexible and could be used for quite a few Foci, nearly all of the other ones she's associated with are already being used by more specialized gods.

The thing that makes me want to ditch Air for Thor is that it's mostly a ranged combat focus, and that's not really what comes to mind when I think of Thor. One of my rules when setting up the pantheons was that every pantheon needed all four elemental foci covered, but this is one case where I'd be willing to make an exception.

But regardless, I REALLY need to remove one major Storm god, and the best choices for that are Thor and Shiva. Changing Shiva would be the best, as I like the idea of a Death/Healing god, but that still leaves the Thor-Enlil duplication. So the best thing, honestly would be to do all three: Thor to Storms/Healing (or Storms/Plants, as Thor was associated with oak trees and fertility in general), Enlil to Storms/Balance, and Shiva to Death/Healing. Or at least the Enlil change and then one of the other two.
 
Im getting a problem where when I choose a minor god, I don't always get a shrine in my capital
 
Im getting a problem where when I choose a minor god, I don't always get a shrine in my capital

You're not supposed to always get a shrine in your capital. If you have more than one city, then the game places the shrine in the city that has the fewest levels of religious buildings (with ties going to the older city), very similar to how Civ4 decided which city founded a new religion. That's almost never going to be the capital, so as long as one of your cities is getting a free shrine, it's working as intended.

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Update:
Things were a bit slow this weekend thanks to some outside issues (*cough*Skyrim*cough*).
I'm going to try one more pass at fixing a couple bugs in the Ascension mod today, then I'm going to play my first actual Mythology game. If I don't find anything really critical, I'll post the new version tonight or tomorrow morning; if you've got an opinion on the deity shifting mentioned previously, now's the time.
The version after that will be AFTER the Thanksgiving weekend. That next version will have many of the Events working, the last of the god artwork, and so on, which should make it the first functionally complete version; the corresponding version of the Base mod will also have the ranged promotion merging.

There are four big problems I'm dealing with in the current build of the Mythology mod:
1> The promotion limit conflict with the Ascension mod.
2> The current Events ONLY apply to the human player, because the User Events mod component I'm using never had AI functionality. This is one reason why I've left in the dinky little test effect; it'd be too big of an imbalance otherwise. On a related note, all religious AI decisions (like which minor god to add) are made at random. I'm going to implement Flavors for the various Foci and Event choices, and have the AI weight its selections appropriately.
3> The game won't actually save the religious mod data along with the rest, so you can't load an in-progress savegame. I know how to fix this, it's just going to get a bit messy.
4> The Heroes aren't in the game yet, mainly because their triggering Events aren't ready.

My goal is to fix all four of these over the Thanksgiving holiday, or at least partially fix them (like for #4, putting the eight Greek heroes in first and having everyone just use them to test the mechanisms).
 
I'm not sure but I thought city states couldn't gift myth units, if they can disregard this, but if they aren't supposed to be able to, this is a bug.

Belgrade just gifted me a Tiamat.
 
I'm not sure but I thought city states couldn't gift myth units

It's not intended. I'm still trying to figure out how to stop it; the AI clearly doesn't check the unit class overrides for gifted units, and since all of the non-pantheon Myth units have no tech requirements...

There are a few things I can do to make this better, but if I can't figure out what to do about these, then I might just have to put in a hack that auto-kills invalid gifted units and replaces them with something else.
 
Should priest specialists always generate the same resources regardless of what level the structure is (shrine/church etc.)? And if yes, should each of the buildings only support 1 priest?

Is there a place to where one can view a summary of the effects from their collective gods? I know you can figure it out from looking around the mandala but I couldn't find a place where it's clearly summarised.

Thoughts on adding a notification or pop-up when the player reaches enough Favor to pick a new god? It's very easy to forget and people playing for the first time may not know that they even can select new gods.
 
Should priest specialists always generate the same resources regardless of what level the structure is (shrine/church etc.)? And if yes, should each of the buildings only support 1 priest?

Yes, and yes.

The original design had higher-level religious buildings having more priest slots (going 1/2/3/4), but doing that meant that I had WAY too many priest slots in the game. As it is, you'll have up to one slot per focus you've unlocked (beginning at 2) per city, which is already a pretty huge number.

As for the first question, all priest slots are the same, just like all Merchant slots are equal, all Engineer slots are equal, and so on... except that which Priest slot you use determines which Focus gets that priest's Favor for that turn. This is why Basilicae don't have Priest slots; there's little point in building up more Favor within a Focus that's already maxed out. But yes, all Priest slots are equal; if I have any hope of getting the AI to understand them, that sort of thing is necessary.

Is there a place to where one can view a summary of the effects from their collective gods? I know you can figure it out from looking around the mandala but I couldn't find a place where it's clearly summarised.

Well, you could always print out the post on the first page of this thread... or go to that Focus' entry in the Civilopedia (once it's finished, since they're not there yet)... or click on the gold-ringed Foci on the Mandala... or just mouse-over the religious buildings in each city to see what effects they're giving. It's a lot like asking "where can I see all of the things my techs have unlocked?"; you can either go into the tech tree and look at the individual techs, or you can go into a city and look at the buildings you've built or that are available to be built, or go to the Civilopedia, or look it up on a wiki someplace. Replace "techs" with "Foci", "tech tree" with "Mandala", and so on, and it's pretty much the same answer. So I'm generally trying to hold to the same level of detail that the core game uses for its own systems.

Now, if this still ends up being a problem then I suppose I could delete the current god list on the right side of the Mandala and create an extra internal popup data window that shows exactly which gods you've picked and their currently unlocked effects. (Sort of like how in the Victory Progress UI you can click to get more detailed information of which spaceship parts each civ has built.)
It'd at least give me a better excuse for using the 256-pixel god icons, so I might do it anyway. And I could color-code each line based on whether you've reached the tech necessary for that level, whether it's capital-only, or whether it's unavailable. The one thing the player lacks right now is a good indicator of which level each Focus can reach at the current technology, and this'd help with that.

Thoughts on adding a notification or pop-up when the player reaches enough Favor to pick a new god? It's very easy to forget and people playing for the first time may not know that they even can select new gods.

It depends. I still haven't decided whether you should be ALLOWED to wait, or whether you should be like the AI and be forced to pick as soon as you have enough Favor (assuming any new gods are selectable at your current Alignment). If I'm intending to force the player, then I'd first of all have to figure out a way to create a new popup type (necessary to block the End Turn button, although I could edit that Lua as well if needed), and then add another option to the setup screen.

If the player's allowed to wait, then I'll add a reminder popup, except that I'll check first to see if the player has any valid minor god options at his position before notifying (since it'd get REALLY annoying to get a "Hey, you forgot!" message when it might be ten or twenty turns before you can reach a new area and actually pick a god. I know, it's easy to go past the necessary amounts (especially during a war, when you're generating lots of Battle Favor), but I'm already getting into the habit of looking at the top of the screen as I play to check.

Now, what I can do much more easily is simply alter the message on the top of the screen. Right now, it's "X / Y" where Y is what you need and X is what you have. If X > Y, I can just change that message to "NEW MINOR GOD AVAILABLE" or something similar, where mousing over the thing will continue to give the actual amounts you've accumulated if you don't want to add a god right then.

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Update: Another slight delay due to technical issues. New version will be tonight or maybe tomorrow if I can't track down this problem in the Ascension mod; if I can't track it down then I'll remove my debugging statements and release it as-is. It'll definitely be out before the Thanksgiving vacation, with the next version being next Monday-ish so that I can spend my 4-day weekend coding up all sorts of new stuff.
 
The Roman Balista has "limited visabilty" as a promotion to choose alongside Barrage and Accuracy, im sure this is not intended
 
So when is the new version coming out?

Also, what did you decide to do about the promotions?
 
So when is the new version coming out?

I've been working on it the last two days (I didn't have anything planned for Thanksgiving, so it was pretty much Civ5, Skyrim, and the Nebraska-Iowa game this morning). I think I've got the kinks worked out of the Ascension mod, and for Mythology I've just got it to finally preserve information across saves, so that you can finally reload a savegame and not have it go all wonky.

In terms of new functionality, there really isn't much changed since the last version. I shifted some of the gods around, as mentioned before, and I've started emplacing the various hooks needed for the Events, but this version was mainly about fixing internal issues. So assuming I don't find anything else critically wrong, I'll post it all tonight. Then I'll work on adding all of the missing Events, AI logic, a bit more UI information, and various other bits of stuff for the next version early next week.

Also, what did you decide to do about the promotions?

Next version, and I'm going with the opposition method (Open ranged bonus pairing with Rough melee bonus, and vice-versa). The problem isn't the merging itself, it's making sure that I fix all of the things that are expecting those promotions to still be there.
 
Update:

Right now, it's alternating between two problems when I try to load a savegame: either it hangs completely, or it screws up the Players structure. (Instead of going 0-5 for the IDs of the major civs, for some reason during the initialization it thinks it's 1-6 instead, and it crashes when it hits nonexistent player #6.) Neither of these would affect games played straight through, just as before, so I COULD just post it knowing that it's still semi-broken. But I'm VERY close to getting it working correctly, so I'll hold off posting it and continue debugging this in the morning.
 
Would the game be able to load properly if there are more than 6 players?

No. Regardless of how many players you set, it's shifting the indices by 1, but it's NOT shifting the data structures themselves. It's very strange; when you do a loop like
Code:
for index,pPlayer in pairs(Players)
it has absolutely no problem using the correct indices... except when you do that loop wirhin one single file I have, which unfortunately is the file that initializes the data structures I need. Functionally, that file is nearly identical to the method used by InfoAddict for its logging structure, so it's not like it's not a well-tested algorithm.

And like I said, the strange part is that it's NOT shifting the data arrays. Players[1] points to exactly where it's supposed to, as do elements 2, 3, and so on, but for whatever reason the loop mentioned above starts at 1 instead of 0 (with 0 being you), and tries to query nonexistent player #6. This invalid query will return a 0, but the game seems to interpet that as having Bismarck as your leader (since he's ID#0), so it isn't crashing anything until it gets to the first time it tries to actually use Players[6].

I've spent a good part of today trying to figure out what's wrong, and so far I've got nothing to explain WHY it's happening, but I may at least be able to hack it to function correctly in spite of the error. Trying that out now.
 
Not sure if you've already decided on this, but I think Thor should be Storms/Healing

Mainly because he makes the Material/Chaotic part of the Norse pantheon easyer to get to, which there a pretty decent amount of gods in that area of the Mandala
 
Not sure if you've already decided on this, but I think Thor should be Storms/Healing

At the moment Thor's basically a toss-up between Storms/Healing and Storms/Plants. Since I've shifted Shiva to Death/Healing, I don't really need another major Healing god too badly, but either way would work about the same balancewise, and Plants is definitely less Norse-like, other than for Frigg. (Note that between my changes to Thor, Shiva, and Izanagi, the Healing focus just went from least used to one of the more common ones, with one primary, two secondaries, and three minors out of seven pantheons.)

As for starting alignment, Storms/Healing is (-3,+2) while Storms/Plants is (-2,+1). Both in the CM quadrant, slightly weighted towards Chaos, but one'd favor moving towards the middle, while the other would favor the diagonal optimum near (-4,+4). Old Thor, as Air/Storms, was (0,-2), so it's a VERY different dynamic now.
Since Odin starts at (+2,-1), Loki at (-2,-4) and Frigg at (+2,+2), that'd put one major Norse god in each quadrant, which is what I basically want from most pantheons. Given those numbers I'd be inclined to go with Storms/Healing for Thor, just so that he and Odin don't both end up gravitating towards the center.

The Norse pantheon is a bunch of strange military choices already; Loki (Fire/Darkness) will be great on offense and have strong Myth units, while his cities will be somewhat protected by the Darkness effect. Frigg's got the raw defense of Earth and the Psi-like adjustments of Balance, so she's great on defense. And then there's Odin (Knowledge/Travel), whose units will see further and move faster than anyone else's. So having Thor's cities giving off those auras kinda fits, and it's a lot more appropriate than the ranged attack bonuses he was getting from Air.

So, for now he'll be Storms/Healing, which is actually another entertaining defensive combo as both of those involve creating "auras" around your cities to damage enemies or heal friends. Not sure how well the AI will handle that, but it should be okay.

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Note: I'm going to rebalance Storms in the near future (not this version, maybe not the next one, but soon) to deal less damage and add some other effects instead; doing up to 5 damage per turn to adjacent enemies was just way too much in practice, since the AI's units would just die before he had a chance to really do anything with them. In the short term I could just increase the range and decrease the damage, but I figured I'd cut the damage WAY down (capping at 2 per turn) and turn Storms into a less one-dimensional Focus instead by adding some other effects.
One idea was to move the Lightning Bolt unit from Air over to Storms, and create a whole series of Air bombardment units for that Focus (which'd make it VERY different from the other Myth-heavy Foci, whose "air" units are actually helicopter-like). That'd be really strange, though, since it'd mean Zeus couldn't use his trademark unit.
So one idea I've been pondering is to give each Deity special access to a single type of Myth unit that he wouldn't otherwise be able to get (level permitting). That way, Zeus could keep his Lightning Bolt while the Air focus shifts to other flying units. It'd also make the major gods more than just a pair of Foci and some Favor multipliers.

Coding this is not too difficult; the easy way to do it is to make a second unit type within a given class. So UNIT_LIGHTNING_BOLT requires the Cathedral of Storms, while UNIT_LIGHTNING_BOLT_ZEUS requires both the Statue of Zeus (a new building auto-placed in your capital, with little or no in-game effect) and a Cathedral of Justice (Zeus' secondary focus). Yes, that means adding 28 new units and 28 new buildings (or supplementing the 4 panthon Projects with 28 god-specific ones). Why secondary focus, and not primary? Because adding a level to your primary is already more valuable than adding it to your secondary, so this balances it out even better. You'll still reach level 4 eventually, of course.

The first problem I thought of, though, is what happens if you add, as a minor god, the focus that gives that other unit? To where you'd have twice as many Lightning Bolts or something? But the solution is obvious: 4 banned foci per pantheon, 4 major gods per pantheon. So just map them 1:1; in the Greeks, the unused pantheons are Healing, Darkness, Storms, and Balance. So give Zeus the Lightning Bolt from Storms (which obviously fits him), Hades the Shade from Darkness (which was a Greek unit in Age of Mythology anyway), Poseidon the level 4 Healing unit, and Hephaestus gets the Avatar (level 4 Balance). (Maybe swap those last two, I'll think about it. I'm also considering adding a lower-level Healing unit; I'd use the Valkyrie, now that Thor's going to go Healing, but that'd prevent any other Norse gods from making them.) There's no real conflict in terms of levels; getting an extra level 2 unit like the Shade might seem much worse than a level 4 like the Avatar, but you'll get it much earlier and be able to make more of them.

Since this'd effectively reduce the impact of the off-limits Foci (by having some of their effects show up in other areas), this'd also help with some of my other conflicts. Take the Norse (banned: Air, Crafts, Plants, Seasons); now that Thor has ditched Air as a Focus, no one in that pantheon has access to those flying units, although the level 1.5 Norse pantheon unit is a flier. But I can just give Thor one of the Air units back, give a Plants unit to Frigg (to let her plant forests and jungles), the Seasons unit to Odin and Crafts' Colossus to Loki (or add a lower Crafts unit and give him that instead).
(The only Focus with no Myth units is War, but since every pantheon has a god of war it's never on the banned list.)

Maybe, to make things a bit more interesting, the "Statue of XXX"-type building could give some token in-game effect, like +1 to a couple yields. A nice extra little start for your capital, that could vary by god to help with whatever major drawback his starting Foci give. Hephaestus, for instance, starts with plenty of Production, so his statue might add +1 to Food and Gold to prevent early starvation/bankruptcy. It wouldn't mean much in the long term, but it'd help while everyone gets set up at the start.
The problem is that buildings cause issues when a capital is captured; the building has to be destroyed, so that the conqueror doesn't get it, but that'd mean I'd have to add another event to see if the statue needs to be moved to a new capital. Projects would be MUCH better, as they're inherently tied to the player, and they work just fine for unlocking units (which is why I use them for the Pantheon unlocking), but you can't give them a yield bonus and the message spam on the first turn would get even worse.
 
YES! I like that idea, adding units to specific major gods

Another idea I was thinking of is what about heroes baised on what foci you have? For example the death foci getting a death knight or something as a hero unit (hero anti myth promotion, spawn, and disease)
 
YES! I like that idea, adding units to specific major gods

My big concern there is power creep. The more things I add to each player, the harder it is to maintain balance with the AI. This is why I'd really prefer NOT to give level 4 units this way, if I can avoid it. Using lower-level units for this would also allow me to tweak the numbers; if a Storm god can have three Lightning Bolt units at a time, I can make Zeus' version only allow one or two. Enough to provide a nice bit of flavor, not enough to make your focus choices meaningless.
Alternately, since they'd have to be a different unit entry anyway, I can make these NOT just be a direct copy of Focus units. So maybe the Lightning Bolt is a level 3 unit for Storms gods, but ZEUS' Lightning Bolt is a bit stronger, or adds an area effect. Likewise, the Shade is a level 2, but Hades' version of it could be more like a 2.5, adding a couple extra promotions the stock version doesn't have. This'd also allow me to not be constrained to ONLY use the level 4 units for many Foci; if I want Hephaestus to have a Balance-ish unit, it doesn't have to be the level 4 Avatar unit, I can create an entirely new unit that's equivalent to a 2.5 unit but is Balance-ish in its promotions.

I'd originally intended each god to have a unique power of some kind, but that got shelved for technical reasons and because it didn't feel necessary once the Foci were in place. So this'd actually be a nice return to my earlier designs; it's just even more work to deal with, though.

Another idea I was thinking of is what about heroes baised on what foci you have? For example the death foci getting a death knight or something as a hero unit (hero anti myth promotion, spawn, and disease)

Generally, no. Heroes are going to be "named" units, directly taken from the appropriate Mythology. Greek pantheon hero units would be Hercules, Achilles, Odysseus, Theseus, Perseus, the Argos (Jason), Ajax, and Bellerophon. I'm trying to assemble similar lists of 8 for each pantheon, the Greeks were just an obvious place to start.

The key, though, is that heroes do NOT generally have "mystical" abilities like Spawn or Disease. They're men, just heroic men that are very, very good at what they do. Other than the Hero promotion (which gives anti-myth bonuses, among other things), they'll have ~3 "mundane" promotions. Achilles, for instance, has Charge, Volley, and Siege. (That's +25% vs. wounded units, vs. fortified units, and vs. cities.) They'll also have slightly higher base strengths (Achilles is a swordsman with a 13 strength instead of the default 11), to make up for the fact that their promotions are a bit specialized.
(Note: Heroes start with 30 XP, but they'll also start at level 3, meaning the game thinks they've already spent the 30 XP gaining the promotions they have. So it'd take 30 XP for them to gain an additional promotion, instead of the 10 a new unit would need. You still come out ahead.)
Now, this might not be practical. Coming up with 8 hero units for some pantheons without including any mystical abilities or non-Human heroes might not be possible, so I might have to have some of them having one unusual ability. But they'll still be "named" units.

Now, they WILL be indirectly linked to your Focus choices. The way Heroes will work is like this:
> Once you build the Heroic Epic, you'll always have at least 1 Hero. If you don't have one, the game will randomly assign you one from your pantheon. (At the moment it just assigns the Generic Hero. I intend to have the "randomly assign" part be weighted by alignment, though.)

> There are 8 "High" Events. You can't get these until you get into the Classical Era (which is AFTER you get the Heroic Epic), each only averages a 0.5% chance of happening on a given turn, you can't have any High Events within 40 turns of each other (or within 5 turns of ANY event), and each can only ever happen once (no repeats). End result, you'll have maybe three of these per game, on average. The High events have four alignment-linked options, as usual. One of those four will be to gain a specific Hero (the one thematically linked to the event); even if you're not specifically trying to pile up Heroes, you'll still average one or two extras this way.
Now, here's the catch: each High Event's chance of triggering depends on your alignment. There are eight of them, and each is linked to an alignment (L, LM, M, CM, C, CE, E, LE). If you're in the LM quadrant, then the LM event's chance is 0.75% per turn, the L and M events are 0.625%, the CM and LE events are 0.5%, the C and E events are 0.375%, and the CE event is only 0.25%. (If you're on an axis, i.e. a 0-value on the other axis, then the axial one is 0.75%, the two adjacent quadrants are 0.625%, and so on. If you're at (0,0), every High event is the same 0.5%.) So, if you've been picking chaotic Foci, then the Chaotic-aligned Hero-awarding events will be much more likely to come up than their Lawful counterparts.

Most of the events are aligned this way. The eight High events cover the eight alignments, as listed above, and range from 0.25% to 0.75%. The six Middle events are L, M, C, E, and two Neutrals; the first four go from 0.5% to 1.5% depending on your alignment, but the Neutrals are a flat 1.0% regardless (and while Mediums CAN repeat, once you get a specific Medium, that particular event won't repeat for 40 turns). The five Low events (the most common) are aligned LM, LE, CM, CE, and one Neutral, and go from 1 to 3% (with the Neutral one being a flat 2%). The Lows are only limited by the base 5-turn lockout and a 20-turn limit on repeat events, so more than half of the events you see in a typical game will be Low.

Bottom line, if you're spending most of your time in the CM quadrant, you'll see mostly Chaotic and Material-aligned events, although not EXCLUSIVELY C and M. My hope is that this'll encourage folks to try out different gods, with different alignments; take the previous Norse discussion, where the four majors each start in a different quadrant. So you'd see different events as Loki than you would as Odin; none of the events would be explicitly locked out, but the rarities would change.

Now, while the event EFFECTS aren't in-game yet, the 19 events and their alignment biases ARE (they were added two versions ago, IIRC). So as you play, you'll see "Lawful Material High Event" as the title of the event, even if the four choices are the exact same food/production/research/gold choices as always. If you were to keep track of exactly which events popped up on which turns, you'd probably see this bias in practice.
 
Are you going to add a way to see how close a specific shrine, etc. is close to upgrading?

Honestly, I'm not sure. I CAN do that pretty easily inside CityView, to where mousing over a building will give its current Favor and level, the current max level, and the amount needed for its upgrade. The problem is one of dependencies; that file is being edited in the Base mod, but the values are being set in the Mythology mod. Right now, the only Base file that uses those data structures is TopPanel, which refreshes constantly and so there's no real problem if the values are unset initially, but I'm not sure CityView is as flexible. I can try it, though.
 
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