Age of Mythology

I've updated the Foci post at the start of the thread to include the latest building effects. Nearly all of these are in and tested, but they're not finalized. So read them to get an idea of what sort of role I intend each Focus to play, and feel free to suggest alterations.

For instance, one of the things I was looking to do was replace a lot of the level 3 effects, mainly the flat yield bonuses in Crafts, Fertility, etc. with "creates one unit of X" where X is a resource. So a Crafts one would generate a unit of Iron, Fertility might generate Horses, Beauty might generate Silk, Wealth generate Gold, Plants generate Cotton, Animals generate Ivory, etc. The problem is that if I put luxuries on that list, then it penalizes folks who start with that luxury already in their territory, although they can trade those extras away I suppose. And you'll only have two strategics for most of this period, since Coal doesn't unlock until the end of the Renaissance, well after this era ends, so I could double up on the existing ones (providing Horses at both Fertility and Animals, maybe?).

I didn't list the special abilities of each Myth unit, that'll be added to the Units section of a first-page post in the future. Every Myth unit needs one, so if you've got any ideas it'd be nice. Remember: every Myth unit should have ONE ability that "mundane" units can't have (except the level 4s, which can have two); they can be very powerful abilities, because Myth units do not get most of the free promotions given by other Foci, and never start with any XP even if you have Barracks and such.
 
Will Myth units have their own specific set of promotions?

They'll have access to the usual open/rough terrain promotions, but that's not really the point of them. They're very strong units that start with powerful abilities, but the idea is that human troops are a better long-term investment since they'll stick with you after the mythological age is over and can start with extra XP from Barracks and such. So other than the Darkness Focus' single Myth-boosting ability, the Myth units are basically "what you see is what you get".

Now, that's still an awful lot that you get. If a normal melee unit is strength 10 or 11 at these tech levels, then these might range from 15 to 25 for their base values. And it's not just about raw strength; you might have a Lightning Bolt unit that's basically an untouchable orbital weapon from the SMAC mod (able to hit anywhere on the planet), a Phoenix that respawns from the dead back at your capital whenever it dies, a Hydra that gains a free promotion every time it kills a unit, a Medusa that causes the enemy it attacks to miss its next turn, and so on.

So if you don't build a few of these when you have the chance, you might easily get crushed by your neighbor... at least until you start stacking the benefits of the War, Fire, Earth, etc. foci together on your mundane units. (But notice, most of those benefits are for new units created in a city, so the early units you build will get obsolete quickly. Only the level 4 abilities, which you'll only have at most two of, apply to all units across your empire.)

Besides obviously acting as counters to each other, though, you can also get Hero units, which DO benefit from all the usual promotions, start with some good (but more normal) promotions of their own, and have a large bonus against Myth units. And every empire will have at least one Hero (once you build a Heroic Epic), so you should be able to defend yourself pretty well.

Also, at the moment I'm looking to "clean up" when the Mythological Age ends. As in, all of those Fire and War promotions are all removed from units once you finish the Enlightenment. But even so, the mundane units are still better in the long term since you can upgrade them to rifles and such.
 
Will there be barbarian Myth units? Roaming monsters, perhaps the odd stationary dragons lair or similar?

I haven't decided. The problem is the same as in the AC mod: Barbarian camps' behavior is very rigidly defined, so I can't really create a workable "dragon lair" entity without doing the full Spore Tower bit and creating entirely new algorithms for it. It's very annoying.

It's not hard to add Myth units to the barbarian spawn tables, and in fact I'm going to have to go out of my way NOT to have them use those units. But the balance could be a real problem if I'm not careful.
Also, I'm not sure how probabilistic the Barbarian spawn method is. I think it picks the most advanced unit within each Combat Class, and spawns that unit (with some sort of point cap limitation), which'd be very problematic for the barbs since they'd pick only a single myth unit at a time.

Conceptually, there's a different problem. Mythological creatures wouldn't randomly show up all over the place, they were very specific: one monster of type X would terrorize one city, a Hero would show up and kill it, the end. So I'd be inclined to cap it, where at least the powerful Myth units (levels 3 and 4) never spawn randomly.
 
I know it's quiet in here, and that you're waiting for me to release an alpha version of the mod, but besides the graphical stuff we've discussed in the last week, there's more to do before I'm ready to hand the files out. Top priority is to fix the water resources in the Ascension mod, but after that I'm going to try finishing the crude first-pass interface for picking a god at the start of the game. Once that's working, I'll upload v.0.01.

So in the meantime, I need a few things. I need ideas for Myth units, Heroes, and Events for the pantheons OTHER than the Greek, Egyptian, and Norse; I've given more detail on this over in the General Discussion thread. None of these will be included in the first alpha version of the mod, so there's no rush, but other than artwork these wouldn't take long to implement.

But I also need something else: I need people to go to the first page, read through the list of Focus building effects, and just see whether any of them seem horribly out of whack, balancewise. Many of these effects are still up in the air, and can easily be replaced with something more distinctive, but I want people to get a rough idea of what the balance will be like. It'd also be useful for people to go through the pantheons and see if they think the effects for any one major god are just horribly unbalanced compared to the other three majors in the same pantheon. (The one I'm most worried about is Water, since it's so coastal-skewed, but there are several others that I'm not sure on.)

And one further note: the initial design, and the first alpha version, will be far less tunable than the final product. That is, there are a lot of things that right now are hard-coded internally (event thresholds, how much Favor to gain a new god, how Heroes are gained, and so on), but that could be made much more flexible in the long run. So if you're not happy with the inability to tune the system towards a specific playstyle (warmonger, wide empire, tall empire) mid-game, understand that I can add the flexibility to do that later on, once I program the AI to understand how to make those sorts of decisions for itself. It'd be a good idea to suggest exactly WHERE you think a player decision should occur, but don't be upset if I don't immediately implement your idea.
 
Spatzimaus, can you just clarify that at this stage you're not interested in a Maori pantheon, as I can give a lot of details for one.

Anyway, as for help, I suggest you check out these links from the AoM fan boards:

http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=9,21648,,10 - from AoE3, but scroll down, list of suggested AoM civs
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,11142,,all - Aztec
http://aom.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=3573 - Massive overview of Japanese (Shinto)
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=9,23451,,10 - Another Shinto
 
Ok, so heres an idea I have for an aztec myth unit, how about a jaguar (actual animal, but mythified) myth unit tied to the darkness foci (for obvious reasons) that has woodsman, a combat bonus in jungle, and heres the kicker, is invisable when in forest or jungle

Another idea is a zombie unit which heals all the damage it does and when healed past full health spawns another zombie unit with the leftover health, like in the zombie apocolypse mod
 
Heres another Aztec myth unit, Cihuateteo, women who died during childbirth, Gives a combat bonus to all units within 2 tiles and a combat penalty to all enemy units in 2 tiles. Also can use enemy roads and has the incan slingers ability to retreat to a nearby tile when an enemy tries to melee it
 
Spatzimaus, can you just clarify that at this stage you're not interested in a Maori pantheon, as I can give a lot of details for one.

Basically, yes. I know you've done a lot trying to add a lot of content in that theme, but there's just no need to add more pantheons at this point. I'm trying to make it easy for people to add their own content to this later on, but I'm building the initial mod around a stable baseline of seven; the only way I'd add another pantheon at this point would be if I had to remove one of the existing options, because otherwise I'd have duplicate combinations of Favor biases. It's not that you CAN'T have duplication, but I'm working under some time limits here; I'm not going to bloat this thing up and give myself more balance headaches down the road (the balance issues I have now are bad enough). So I'm sticking with seven, one per combination, and building the mechanisms (and the AI decision processes) around that number, at least for now.

The Favor generation is not the only defining characteristic of a pantheon; there's also the combination of which Foci are missing and which are assigned to major gods. So if I were to remove any of the existing pantheons, it'd create gaps, and if the replacement didn't fill those, it wouldn't help. It took a lot of creative bookkeeping to get a workable set of seven that covered all of the necessary bits. Again, this wouldn't stop you from adding an eighth pantheon of your own, but you risk creating even worse imbalances that way.

For instance, if you added an eighth pantheon, then it should really have a Healing god, a Crafts god, and the major gods' foci should include Beauty, Healing, Knowledge, and Seasons (or as many of those as possible) and NOT include Fire, Air, Death or Storms. It'd also be good if the pantheon didn't have any gods of War or Fertility, but I'll admit that's pretty unlikely to ever happen. And then there are the guidelines I put in a previous post, about how certain focus combinations shouldn't be used, how minor gods need to cover certain bases, and so on. Throw those all together, and you can see why it's not an easy process to fit more in.

This is actually why I am NOT adding a Titans civ, despite that being the theme of AoM's actual expansion; they just didn't fit well. They had the same gaps as other civs, they overlapped with too many other pantheons, and so on. So I tossed them.

Anyway, as for help, I suggest you check out these links from the AoM fan boards:

Some very interesting bits there, although quite a bit of it mixes the religious aspects with the nation's social/historical characteristics. That's how AoM worked, so it makes sense, but I'm not forcing any congruity here; the Shinto religion won't be restricted to only the Japanese civ or anything, so all the Emperor/Samurai stuff has to be removed. But the myth unit lists will definitely come in handy.

It IS kind of funny, though, how that Shinto mod picked a VERY different set of "major" kami than I did, while the Aztec one was extremely close to my deity choices.
 
Ok, so heres an idea I have for an aztec myth unit, how about a jaguar (actual animal, but mythified) myth unit tied to the darkness foci (for obvious reasons) that has woodsman, a combat bonus in jungle, and heres the kicker, is invisable when in forest or jungle

If I can figure out how to make that sort of selective invisibility work, then that's the kind of thing I'm looking for. Unfortunately, the 2kgames wiki has been dead for almost a week, so I have no idea what Lua functions I'll have access to. Now, I CAN easily tie it to movement and an existing promotion, where if the hex you move into has a forest or jungle you gain the promotion and if not you lose it. But the question then becomes, what units can see invisible?

Also, this has the usual AI issues. It wouldn't be easy to teach the AI that moving into forests is a good thing, but then again, if it already has Woodsman then that's not a problem since it'll already want to. So that one works.

Now, it might just be better to drop the "invisibility" idea and just go for something closer to invincibility instead. I've already got a bunch of defensive promotions in the game, and I can just give one of those instead based on the terrain.

Another idea is a zombie unit which heals all the damage it does and when healed past full health spawns another zombie unit with the leftover health, like in the zombie apocolypse mod

I'd want to be REALLY careful with that. A well-managed zombie army would be capable of growing indefinitely, but the AI'd likely lose his zombies long before they spawned any more. But it'd work just fine for the level 2 Death effect if you had a strong zombie "horde" unit that spawned weaker copies (ones that can't spawn more), since the potential for exponential growth would be greatly reduced.

Heres another Aztec myth unit, Cihuateteo, women who died during childbirth, Gives a combat bonus to all units within 2 tiles and a combat penalty to all enemy units in 2 tiles. Also can use enemy roads and has the incan slingers ability to retreat to a nearby tile when an enemy tries to melee it

That's really pushing the limits on how many unique abilities I can give it. The problem is that what you've describe would require me to create three new promotions (one to be given to friendly units nearby, one to be given to enemy units nearby, and one to add that withdrawing ability), and the game only allows you to make ~60 custom promotions. Given that I'm already adding 37 promotions in the Ascension mod (some of which are generic enough to be shared across mods) and 15 Focus-specific promotions in the Mythology mod, I just don't have a whole lot of room to work with. If the ones it gives duplicate some other promotion I've already added, then sure, that'd work.
 
I have some reccomendations for you: switch plants level 1 with 2 and balance the level 4 foci (in group 3, art and water foci the effects are really strong in relation to seasons for example, where level 4 is like any other level),
 
switch plants level 1 with 2

Doing that would be... problematic. The level 1 effect needs to be something that's generally useful, with the level 2 being the more specialized effect, because in the late game your non-capital cities will only have level 1 buildings for minor gods. That's why all of the resource-specific effects are at level 2 in other foci; even with six resources getting boosted, there's a good chance that your cities won't benefit, but the level 1 effect should nearly always be useful.

I can make that change, but I think it'd make the Plants focus VERY weak in the later eras, so it's something that'll need to be tested. An alternative is to split the effects up; Forest, Wheat, and Jungle at 1, Flood Plain, Bananas, and the luxuries at 2. Would that sort of shifting make it seem more balanced to you?

and balance the level 4 foci (in group 3, art and water foci the effects are really strong in relation to seasons for example, where level 4 is like any other level),

Seasons 4 adds a powerful Myth unit, I just haven't decided which one yet. If I can't find a good one, I'll put some other comparable effect there. Also I was going to bump the yield bonus to +5, but that's still a minor boost. So if I were to ditch the yield increase and keep the Myth unit, what other effect would make it an appropriate level 4 building?

As for Art and Water, why do you thnk they're really strong? It'd be useful to know why you feel they're not balanced. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the reason I'm asking the questions is that I'm trying to get perspectives other than my own, so knowing your train of thought would help quite a bit.

Personally I was feeling like the Water 4 effect was too weak, since unlocking a naval Myth unit doesn't help if your capital isn't coastal. Likewise, Art's +25% culture sounds great, until you realize that very few early buildings actually generate Culture. (Remember, in this mod the Temple is +1 happiness and +1 culture normally, and to make it worse I lowered the culture on the Temple and Monument to produce mostly Favor instead. And while Artists generate culture, you'll only have a single Artist slot in each city.) The Opera House is the first real large-scale culture producer, and it doesn't unlock until the Renaissance.

A lot of level 4s are like that, where the effect sounds strong (often being the same as an existing Wonder) but are inherently limited by the early era. Earth 4 is the Kremlin effect, which sounds nice until you realize that the list of Defense-producing buildings in these early eras is basically the Walls, Earth 1, and Palace, with the Castle coming right at the end. Likewise, for every specialist other than Priest, you're going to have at MOST one slot per city because of how early it is. So when a focus's effect says "+1 Gold per Merchant", that's at BEST +1 gold per city, because the second Merchant slot is at the Bank, in the early Renaissance. (Priests, on the other hand, will be plentiful, so boosting them by 1 food is more than enough for a level 4 effect.)

As to the city-state effects, the mythological content is all pre-Astronomy, so you won't have made contact with most of the empires and city-states in the world. That's why I asked in a previous post about whether I should change the underlying balance of the core game by making it easier to get to Astronomy and such.
So the +0.5 Influence bit only helps if you've made contact already, and that often means only the ones on your starting continent; with the effect only boosting a single type of city-state, you can see how few it'll actually affect. (Obviously it's better on a Pangaea, but that hurts Water even worse.) Also, the +0.5 isn't enough to offset the base -1.0 per turn, even with all of the +0.1s from the other cities' level 3s, so you still need to gain Influence through other means (bribes, missions, etc.) and those are hard to do in early eras.

Anyway, keep the feedback coming, but if you can, explain WHY you think something is too strong or too weak, like you did with the Seasons part.
 
So let's talk about the Seasons 4 effect for a moment. After the previous conversation, I thought about it some more, and here's what I'm thinking now:

1> Ditch the Myth unit.
2> Keep the base increase at +4.
3> Have Seasons 4 also add +1 to whichever two yields are NOT in season... in all cities you own that have at least a Shrine. (Since I'm setting this all through Lua anyway, it's easy to make this sort of change.)

That is, if it's Summer (Food/Production in all cities), then it'd add +1 Gold and +1 Research in every city you own (except the ones with no Seasons buildings at all). A city with a Shrine of Seasons, then, would get +1 to all four yields regardless of season, a Church would have two +2s and two +1, and so on with your capital having two +4s and two +1s.
At first I'd thought of having it further boost the two seasonal yields in all cities, but that'd make it even more skewed, and even harder for the AI to deal with. Boosting the off-season yields would really help the AI, since it's incapable of adjusting easily to shifting yields like that, and it'd make Seasons one of the strongest all-around yield-boosting foci (albeit the least predictable).

Thoughts?
 
Ok, so, I'm not out of the early eras yet, but, so far, 8 damage to my scout from a barb warrior. Using the Ascension and balance mods, so whatever comes out of that.
 
I feel like spamming scouts would be a good strategy for battle favor...

Yeah, the math needs a bit of a tweak. Probably give more of a penalty for your unit dying, or cap the amount of Favor gained for damage taken.

The strength ratio (A/D) is a big part of the problem; even though it caps at x2/x0.5, it's still a big advantage. Right now, the player with the weaker unit always gets more Favor; when attacking, it divides by the ratio, and when defending it multiplies.
So let's examine the concept: right now you get more Favor for charging in against hopeless odds, and more Favor for defending against overwhelming force. Do either of those seem backward, where it should be giving more of a bonus when you're the stronger force?

But really, I'd prefer not to invert it. I'd prefer to keep the ratio the way it is, and cap the Favor some other way; even if you CAN get more favor with Scouts, you'll still be losing fights and therefore risk losing your cities, workers, etc. So as long as I make the math to where you can't afford to do this too often, it's not too bad.
 
I spent this morning rearranging the tech tree a little; I'm shrinking the Classical back to 2 columns (vanilla is 1) instead of the previous 3, because with three columns it just felt too "stretched", with too many techs being direct prerequisites for techs two or three columns away. So it'll be two columns of 6, instead of the previous 5/4/3.
I also moved a few techs around, to move the Optics-Compass-Astronomy line down closer to the Physics/Engineering type techs, so the religious techs now occupy the top of the screen. So a few dependencies had to change. I'll upload new pictures of the tech tree when I have time.

Now, today's topic is Myth Units.

The basic idea of a Mythological unit, as mentioned before, is that they're front-loaded with some powerful abilities (at least one of which is unavailable to players) and don't require any resources, but they also don't benefit from any XP-boosting buildings, or any Wonders, Policies, or religious buildings that provide your units a custom promotion. Also, since they don't upgrade to anything, you'll eventually reach a point (say, Rifleman-ish) where they're generally just not worth the costs, except maybe for the powerful level 4 Myth units.

There's one other little catch I came across today. I should say that I CONFIRMED it today, since I'd always kinda known. That is, unit building class prerequisites are an AND, not an OR. This means that, in the current design, when I say a Myth unit unlocks at Animals 2, that means it ONLY unlocks at Animals 2. So a Church (2) of Animals and a Cathedral (3) of Animals will have completely different lists of units; I'm not sure what'll happen if you're in the middle of producing a unit when the city upgrades, though. Since some of your cities will be below others, this isn't much of a problem if you REALLY like one type of unit and your capital outgrows it; somewhere in your empire, there'll be a city that has that level.

As a result, I'm trying to generally make units follow a clear progression, to where you'd nearly always prefer the level 3 units to the level 2 ones. I'm also going to shift things around a bit, so that a level that has two Myth units in a unit-light focus (like Air 2) splits them up to, say, Air 2 for one and Air 3 for the other.

Level 1 Myth units will generally have two abilities, one "Normal" one (meaning a promotion that normal units can take, like Cover I, or that's given by a Wonder) and one "Special" one (an ability that normal units can't take but that many Myth units can have, like the ability to fly/hover, or an inherent boost to movement or strength). Their base strength will be basically the same as mundane units in the Classical/early Medieval eras (10ish), so once you get to the Crossbow/Longsword techs, these'll be obsolete.
Level 2 Myth units will have two Specials, or one Normal and one Unique (pretty much what it sounds like, an ability that ONLY myth units in this Focus have). Their strength will be more like the 13-14 range, so they'll generally be comparable to the Crossbow/Longsword units.
Level 3 Myth units will typically have one Unique, one Special, and one Normal, or three Specials. Base strength is more like 16-17.
Level 4 Myth units are more like 1/3/1 or 2/1/2, usually with strengths of 20+, but you can only ever have one of each type in your empire. (Like the Gravship, they're basically National Wonders.)

So let's look at the Death Focus, for instance. At the moment I have:

Zombie (Death 2): Spawn, Teamwork
Spawn: if it kills a foe, there's a 50% chance of spawning a new copy of the unit. The copy will be the same as a newly-created Zombie, except that it'll lack the Spawn promotion so there won't be as good as one you create yourself.
Teamwork: it's the "+20% when adjacent to an ally" ability I use for Laser Infantry and the Three Gorges Dam.

Mummy (Death 2): Critical Strike, Disease
Critical Strike is the Ranger's "10% chance of dealing 5 damage" ability.
Disease: a unit that survives the Mummy's attack gains the Diseased negative promotion. At the start of each turn, there's a 1 in 3 chance of taking 1 damage, a 1 in 6 chance of being cured, and a 1 in 2 chance of nothing happening. As long as a unit is diseased, its healing rate is also reduced by 1.


Vampire (Death 3): Drain, Spawn, Stun
Drain: Whenever he attacks, a Vampire deals 1 extra damage and heals 1 damage at the start of combat. There is no effect if the Vampire is the defender.
Spawn: same as Zombie
Stun: A unit attacked by a Vampire loses its next turn.


Phoenix (Death 4): Rebirth, Regeneration I, Flight, Loner, Fire I
Rebirth: Whenever a Phoenix takes lethal damage, it is reborn in your capital automatically, keeping all promotions earned.
Regeneration I: same as the Mind Worms
Flight: Hovering unit and 1 MP per hex
Loner: +20% strength when NOT adjacent to an ally, but doesn't benefit from defensive terrain bonuses (nearly all of the level 4 units have this one)
Fire 1: +10% when attacking, doubled vs cities (as the Shrine of Fire effect)


Note that there's no level 1 Death unit; a Shrine of Death provides a promotion to normal units trained there, nothing more. The only Focus with units at every level is Animals, because that's pretty much ALL it does (2-3 units per level, topping out at Sphinx and Dragon at level 4). Quite a few foci have at least one unit, but the only other Myth-heavy foci are Air and Darkness.
So what'd typically happen, if you were a follower of Hades for instance, would be that in the early eras your capital would be able to make Zombies and Mummies, then your capital would get Vampires while your other cities move up to Zombies and Mummies, and finally your capital could create a Phoenix while your other cities have the lower options.

So if you look at the four units I mentioned, you'd notice that they don't really follow any particular source material or match strongly to any one pantheon thematically. Eventually, what I'd like to do is create a UU for each major god, something that'd replace one or two Myth units in his primary focus to shift things a bit more towards his particular style. But for now, I'll stick with mostly generic creatures.

At the moment it looks like I'm going to have about two dozen Myth unit types tied to specific Foci. The question, then, is whether that's enough; most players might only have a couple of Myth units available to them, unless they add an Animals minor god. So survey time: should I
A> Add a more generic set of Myth units that anyone within a Pantheon can build, regardless of which foci they take, so that everyone can make at least one type of Myth unit?
B> Add more Myth units to the existing Foci, to where every focus has at least one unit it can unlock at some point?
C> Leave things as they are, to where certain Focus combinations (like Fire/War) don't provide any Myth units at all, to make up for how much they boost your non-Myth units?
Obviously you can't really answer this without actually playing, and my goal is still to upload v.0.01 this weekend, but I'm a bit busy with Real Life stuff. What I'm trying to get at is, should combat in the ancient eras be all about these sorts of units, or should they be a minority of your armies, with swordsmen and archers still providing the bulk of your military?
 
Well, A&B. I definitely want some pantheon-specific units, and more myth units in general (fire should definitely get a few, in my opinion).
 
Well, A&B. I definitely want some pantheon-specific units, and more myth units in general (fire should definitely get a few, in my opinion).

Right now, Fire gets no Myth units, it just REALLY strengthens your mundane army, especially against cities. I can easily throw in a Fire Elemental unit at level 2 (Retribution, Fire II), but I'd want to tone down the promotion given to mundane units slightly to compensate.

At the moment, Earth has a couple units, Air has three, Death has four, Darkness has three (and a Myth-boosting promotion), and Animals has about ten. The only other Myth units I've designed are single level 4 units for Crafts, Plants, Wealth, Storms, and Water. So if the goal was B, where I'd add a token level 2 Myth unit to every focus, then that's a pretty hefty number of new units. And while I can just add Elementals for fire, water, earth, and air, finding a conceptual match for some of the others might be tough. (Unicorn for Beauty? A Myth worker unit for Fertility? How about Art or Seasons?)

Also, slight issue: the current city view UI shows all units you've unlocked the tech for, just greyed out with a "need building X" label. I'm going to have to change that, so that you won't see every single myth unit listed in every city. But I was going to have to override the city UI anyway, to show Favor totals, so it's no big loss.
 
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