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Ages of Man: the GENERAL DISCUSSION thread

Discussion in 'Crazy Spatz's Alpha Centauri Mod' started by Spatzimaus, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. LetMyPeopleGo

    LetMyPeopleGo Prince

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    Sad news, definitely one of the mods that kept the game interesting and worth playing.

    I'm not a hardcore civ player as I used to be, but still I think that your balance mod, ascension and mythology should be ported in a suitable way to G&K.
     
  2. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    Don't get me wrong; I'm going to keep trying to figure out a way to work around these sorts of things for a little while longer, and I know of a few ways to make some of my functions work in different ways. But it is NOT going to be easy or quick, unless Firaxis gets around to fixing it on their end, because they broke something that had no redundant backup. And some of the things just can't be worked around at all, so even if I patch half the things on that list, I wouldn't consider the mods playable.

    Basically, while I'm not giving up entirely, you shouldn't count on seeing my mods functional any time soon (if ever).
     
  3. Ezlazeme

    Ezlazeme Chieftain

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    This is not what I was waiting for. I havent played civ without your ascension mod or its predecessor in over a year. I was very much looking forward to playing your mod after i bought G&K. Firaxis will have to wait for my money until this is possible. Thank you Spatz for all your hard work.
     
  4. dinobot386

    dinobot386 Prince

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    Well... That just ruined my day... I haven't played without your mod for as long as I can remember. I hope the DLL comes out soon or you find some other way to make your mods work.

    Thanks for all the work you put in while it lasted, you really are an amazing modder.
     
  5. dinobot386

    dinobot386 Prince

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    So how goes the modding? Find any ways to mimic what your mod used to do? Or any replacement ideas?
     
  6. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    Very little is getting done. I've figured out workarounds for maybe half of the lost functions, generally those where I can shift EndCombatSim functions up to RunCombatSim and drop the unit-specific modifiers. But it's like shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic; if I can't get the stuff I really care about working again, then there's just not going to be a new version of the mod. So even for most of the things that I've figured out workarounds for, I haven't actually DONE the work yet, because why bother? Especially since I'm not really happy with the workarounds' compromises...
    (Also, some work-related and medical stuff have taken up most of my free time in the past week. It happens.)

    At this point, I'm going to try contacting Firaxis directly and asking them to add GameEvents for start-of-combat and end-of-combat. The chances of them actually doing it in the near future are slim, especially if the DLL will be out soon, but there aren't a lot of other options.

    Now, I also didn't buy G&K, as I've said before. Apparently, quite a few new things were added in the expansion that would improve my mods. For instance, I've continued to use Whys' Building Resources mod for all of my buildings that create new resources, and some folks have reported problems with it. But in G&K, they've now added the ability for buildings to generate resources, so there's no longer a need for an outside mod to do it, which'd streamline quite a bit. Of course, the expansion building that uses that table is the Recycling Center, and I'd already added a building in the Empires mod with that name and a very different effect...
    In other words, if I DO buy G&K (and I'm assuming I'd have to, since most of the people playing will have it), there'll be a bit more work to make my mod compatible with it, and I haven't even started looking at that.
     
  7. dinobot386

    dinobot386 Prince

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    Have you heard of Austria's ability to annex city-states? Do you think there might be a way to do the opposite with that mechanic? Where you can turn one of your cities into a city-state?
     
  8. DonQuiche

    DonQuiche Emperor

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    Hello Spatz. :)

    I am in the process of adding different compatibility modes for the techs panel of IGE. If I remember correctly, you moved the techs you wanted to get rid of to negative coordinates. Could you confirm please, or otherwise tell me how you manage techs you don't want to display?

    EDIT: Doh! Wrong mod's thread, it should have been in Alpha Centauri's.
     
  9. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    Actually, I just deleted them. There were only four, so it wasn't much of a problem.

    In the earliest versions of the mod, I'd hidden them underneath my Transcendent Thought tech, and set the Disable flag to true. If two or more techs have the same X and Y values then it'll put the one with the highest ID on top, although you'll see a little color bleed through from the techs underneath. So for a while, I just did that; since Transcendent Thought is my repeatable Future Tech replacement, it was kind of nice to have it a slightly different color than the others (tinted red from the disabled techs underneath).
    If you want to do something similar, but not stack the techs, then you just need to give them a negative Y value (but do NOT change their X). This'll hide the techs off the top of the screen. Also remember to break any prerequisites first, and set that Disable flag.

    But for a while now, I've just deleted the techs. That's a deletion in three places: the Technologies table, the Technology_Flavors table, and the Technology_PrereqTechs table. Also, make sure that any units/projects/buildings at those techs get moved somewhere else or deleted.
     
  10. DonQuiche

    DonQuiche Emperor

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    Thank you very much for this detailed answer Spatz. :)

    Now just for claryfing things up, I am not trying to make a mod that hide techs or buildings, it's just that IGE needs to list all techs added by mods and since big mods like yours each give different meanings to the disable flag (locked as in vanilla or hidden as in Nights) and the irregular coordinates values, I need to let the user choose how IGE should interpret those values in order to hide irrelevant techs.

    From what you said, I don't have anything to do for new versions of your mod since techs are just removed. And for old versions of your mod the "Nights" filter will do the trick. :)
     
  11. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    Well, you don't have to do anything at all for my mod, since it doesn't exist any more. There is no version of my mods compatible with either 674 or G&K, and from the looks of it, there won't be any in the foreseeable future, if ever. But yes, as you've described it your fixes would account for mods like mine, in either version.

    ------------

    I've been trying to patch up my mod as best I can, but it looks like it's just untenable. Too many things are just hopelessly broken now, and there are just too many bits that I can't find good workarounds for. Getting the Base and Empires mod up to 674 functionality went pretty well, but Ascension is still hurt pretty badly (nonfunctional Psi units and nuke interception being the two big ones still broken), and Mythology was just gutted.

    All I really need are two new robust GameEvents to take the place of the old serial versions they altered (one pre-combat, one post-combat). If Firaxis doesn't add these in the near future, I'll have to wait until the DLL is released and hope that someone else figures out how to attach the kind of stubs needed to add those events.
     
  12. DonQuiche

    DonQuiche Emperor

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    AH! I thought it was still working with vanilla and you had removed it because it didn't work with G&K. Now, I knew there were breaking changes but I didn't thought it would impact some mods in such an extent that it would leave you without any alternative to replace the removed API . This is a very sad from Firaxis.
     
  13. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    I need a favor.

    I've actually figured out workarounds for most things, now; a few bits, like nuke interception, will remain broken for the foreseeable future, but I found a way to make things like Psi units work. I'm going to start working on this, but I have one major issue: the Promotion cap. For many of these methods to work I'll need to add more promotions, but I was already running right up against the cap before G&K came out.

    Previously, the game would break once you exceeded 200 promotions in the database. It'd break by giving the 201st promotion (and every one after that) to every unit in the game, including your starting settler and warrior. So I need someone to load various combinations of my mods (Base+Empires absolutely, but I also need Mythology and/or Ascension) to see how many promotions are given to all units in each case. That is, I need to know if/how many extra promotions are given to each unit in all four cases (B+E, B+E+A, B+E+A+M, B+E+M). I'd do it myself, but my cable's been out at home for the past two days, and without that I can't load Steam. (For some unknown reason, "offline mode" requires you to go online.)

    Best Case: no more cap, Ascension+Mythology works with no promotion overflow. This frees me up to do a lot of new things.
    Worst Case: the limit still exists and the G&K expansion added more promotions, to where dropping either Mythology or Ascension STILL puts me over the limit.

    In case you're interested, the workarounds are things like this:
    > Instead of scaling their strength, Psi units would receive after-the-fact damage/healing depending on the relative strength of their opponent. That is, against a marginally stronger opponent the Psi unit would deal 1 extra damage and take 1 less damage (actually it'd take full damage and then heal 1 point, so if the full damage would kill it then it'd still die), a somewhat stronger opponent gets +2/-2, and so on up the line. When fighting a weaker opponent the bonuses are inverted, to where the Psi unit takes extra damage and deals less (by healing its opponent AFTER the combat damage is dealt).
    The Balance focus would work similarly, except I wouldn't have it depend on actual strength differences. Just that if the opposing unit is stronger, Balance I gives +1/-1 and if it's weaker it gives -1/+1, Balance II doubling those, and so on.
    There's still a problem, where if the Psi unit dies in the process its opponent won't take any extra damage, but I can work with that in other ways.

    > Instead of weakening Orbital units whenever they're used against someone with ODPs, I'd instead give all units anti-Orbital promotions at the start of each turn depending on how many ODPs that player has. (I'd actually handle this through hidden Wonder-style buildings that give the promotions, instead of looping over all units one by one.) This would require at least four new promotions, unless I want to change the number of ODPs possible.

    > Right now, Battle Favor is given based on how much damage is dealt, with a bonus if the opponent is killed in the process. That is, right now you get 1 point per damage dealt, plus 2 if the opponent is killed, and this total is doubled if you're the attacker.
    What I'd do is switch it to a flat value, something like "1 point per damage dealt if the enemy survives, or a flat 5 points if the enemy dies", that way I don't actually NEED to know anything about the enemy unit if it was killed in the process. All I need is the player ID of its owner, and the functions do keep that from what I can see. Now, RunCombatSim's argument list does include a lot of information about damage dealt/taken, but I'm not sure how much of that remains accurate here.

    > Similarly, the spawn chance for Zombies and Vampires scales with the relative unit strengths, where killing a stronger unit gives a higher chance. That'd have to go to a straight value, probably depending on unit type.

    > Most of the stuff in EndCombatSim will migrate up to RunCombatSim, with no real change in the results. The main reason before to keep them separate was to avoid my recalculation of Psi strengths and such from affecting the results, but if the Psi adjustment is handled through a different mechanism, like the one I described, then there's no conflict.

    So this mod MIGHT be salvageable, but a big part of it hinges on whether I can add more promotions. And this still doesn't help with nuke interception, which has its own set of problems. But I might be able to get it close enough that it's still worth playing.
     
  14. Ezlazeme

    Ezlazeme Chieftain

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    I no longer have a copy of Age of Mythology but I did load your other three mods and as many promotion mods as i could find. My first settler started with one promotion of which i cant remeber the name of but it was a combat promotion. I then removed the techs from "beyond the future" mod and added it to the list which should of added two more promotions but when i loaded the game the first settler had no promotion. i realize this is no help to you at the moment. If you could possibly pm your link to download age of mythology then i can be of more assistance.


    my attempt was without G&K
     
  15. dinobot386

    dinobot386 Prince

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    Game keeps crashing when I try to load all 4 mods, not sure why, ever since I got G&K its been a pain getting anything to load
     
  16. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    Okay, then there's a G&K issue that has to be fixed first, because I know loading all 4 works on my own machine. I'll try it again for myself once my Internet is back up (it's still down after 3 days, but the cable company says "soon"), since I don't have G&K yet.
    But if Ezlazeme's numbers are right, the limit's apparently still there, and still 200. That could be a serious problem, then; I don't know how many promotions G&K adds, but even if the number were zero, I'd still need more than I did before if I want to fix the things Firaxis broke. This is just so exasperating...

    Basically, it looks like I can save the mods, but they still won't work the way I'd wanted. I'm not sure how playable the Ascension mod will be with no nuke interception, so I may just have to disable nukes in that mod altogether until it's working again, but it looks like I can get the Mythology mod at least to a point where it's playable again. (Of course, I'd then have to completely overhaul the thing to mesh with G&K.)
    I'll spend this weekend seeing how close to functional I can get with my workaround ideas, and if it looks doable, then I'll buy G&K and try to get a non-broken version of the mods out. But at this point it's still a toss-up whether I can make this all work.
     
  17. Androrc the Orc

    Androrc the Orc Emperor

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    It adds 12 promotions.
     
  18. dinobot386

    dinobot386 Prince

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    Boarding Party is the melee ship equivalent to Targeting, so thats 3 you can shave off
     
  19. ^Renegade

    ^Renegade Chieftain

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    Maybe scale them back to the ranges in vCiv5 and not have any icbm ranged nukes untill interception is working again. If not perhaps an SDI could simply be an alternate version of the bomb shelter bulding that was added in with gods and kings?
     
  20. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Are you using GameEvents:UnitSetXY() in your combat workarounds? I was thinking about using this to grab info on melee units before they die, or even to figure out whether it was a melee attack at all. But I'm somewhat worried about this GameEvent sucking up too much overhead, and I'm not even sure it's safe to assume that this will run before RunCombatSim().

    I don't have nearly as much hanging on these combat events as you, but I did use RunCombatSim to get some needed info. (Specifically, I need to know how much experience is dealt out in combat, which I did by figuring out who the combatants were. [Edit: it just occurred to me as I hit the reply button that I might be able to do this a very different way by tracking Great General points. Hmm...])
     

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