Agnostic/Intolerant

[WarKirby]

If I recall correctly, there are 4 civs with one of these traits


Agnostic:

Illians
Grigori
Scions (under Risen Emperor)

Intolerant:
Khadi


Now, as I understand it, agnostic does the following

• Reduces the chance of religions spreading to your cities.
• Prevents you from adopting one as your state religion.

I see it as a leader who doesn't care what his people believe, and/or supports their right to believe what they choose, but refuses to throw state support behind any specific deity.

This fits the grigori, but not the others.


The intolerant trait:

• Prevents religions spreading to your cities at all
• Prevents you from founding a religion
• Prevents you from adopting a state religion

As I understand it, this is a trait to symbolize a leader who does have a state religion, but simply, has their own unique religion rather than one of the more widely known ones of Erebus, and enforces their special religion on the people. With Khadi, I would assume this is worship of Oghma (or mammon)

Going on this reasoning, I believe that both the Illians (worshippers of Mulcarn, the white hand) and the Scions (worshippers of the Risen Emperor, and the dark gift) should have the intolerant trait, rather than the agnostic trait.

There is one other detail, in that intolerant is apparently somehow broken at present. I do not know the details of this, but I don't think a bug should be a factor in deciding this sort of thing, it can reasonably be assumed that bugs will be fixed.

So essentially, I'm proposing Giving the Illians, and the Scions (under the emperor) the Intolerant trait, in place of the Agnostic trait. But don't change the grigori.

Does this seem like a good idea? y/n ?

Edit: I forgot about the Cualli and Mazatl. I'm not sure where they stand.

Perhaps gie the Cualli intolerant, and the Mazatl Agnostic ?

 

[ExMachina]

IMO Intolerant shouldn't even exist. Preventing all deviant religious belief simply shouldn't be possible. As long as each civ has at least one unit capable of using Inquisition, they should be fine.

 

[DavidB1111]

Well,Prevents you from founding a religion
This part is not true per se, because the Concil of Esus, etc will show up as a Religion.
Even as crazy nutso who thinks he's worshiping the God of Knowledge when he's really worshiping the God of Money.

Also, I agree with ExMachina.

Also, Agnostic really shouldn't exist either, but I'm not willing to buy the rights to Fall From Heaven, just to be able to fix that annoyance. Seriously, though, it shouldn't do what it says either. It's Kael's fault.
It should reduce the chance of a religion going to a city, but to be honest, even Agnostics will believe half the time.

 

[xienwolf]

And the other half of the time they don't have a dagger to their throat

 

[WarKirby]

IMO Intolerant shouldn't even exist. Preventing all deviant religious belief simply shouldn't be possible. As long as each civ has at least one unit capable of using Inquisition, they should be fine.

Well, it's not about preventing them. Just suppressing them. Ban a religion, heavy punishments for any followers caught, etc.

It may not completely destroy a religion, but there'll be a lot less followers of Junil when Auric starts beheading order followers in his cities.

 

[Iceciro]

Comments from the lazy-semi-modder guy:

Firstly, and sadly, standard Intolerant does not work. You can with some quick python copy->paste->edit make the religions unresearchable, but that doesn't work very well for Honor/Deception because they both have attached things that aren't Esus/Empy.

I think at some version number religions, et-al should get a major overhaul.

To foster discussion I think I'll open with this bit of comments -

What I'm debating doing personally, assuming I feel like I can do it, and it still sounds like a good idea...

Make every "religion" an actual religion, - the Scion emperor-worship, the two Lizard-guy religions, Oghma, Illians... with very low transfer chances and opened up somewhere along the tech lines for those civs, and perhaps only for those civs.
I'm not sure how to balance it as far as religions only one civ can found, But I feel like the current Int/Agn doesn't really do justice for the fact that these ARE religions, just not exactly something that most other civilizations would start. I wouldn't be surprised at all, however, to see some followers of the Wyvern in a Khadi city, or see some closet worshipers of the God of Winter in a Cabalim city. Historically, especially for upstart new religions, the Government has never really had a core role... but in transfer, or suppression, that was the government's role. I don't recall any nation in history researching religion, though. Perhaps what Intolerant/Agnostic/Self-Religious could do is give them access to Inquisition at Disciple level, with a faster time to clear a city out. That would probably represent a government's role in the spread or suppression of religion much better. Auric probably can't utterly prevent some sneaky Order prophets from getting in his cities over a long period of time, but when he notices he's pretty surely going to go start choppin' heads.

I'd also like Purge The Unfaithful to be repeatable every say, 100 turns. There is something very cool about starting Purge, then doing a State Religion flip just as it finishes to clear the way for whatever you like now.

 

[Valkrionn]

I'd actually come up with an idea for 'minor religions', mainly because it bothered me as well. Basically, I proposed that the empty guild slots be used to represent the different religions followed by the 'agnostic' civs, but I don't know how well that would work now that there are actual guilds again.

 

[Iceciro]

I think Esus should function as a guild, even if it is a semi-religious one.

 

[WarKirby]

Having the faction specific things as religions could work, though might it not detract from their uniqueness?

Converting to The White Hand might be fun though. As long as it gives the same 2 in snow that the illians have

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Converting to The White Hand might be fun though. As long as it gives the same 2 in snow that the illians have

that would be awesome, and I agree with the OP and others... more minor religions!

another point: AGNOSTIC civs should NOT be able to use inquisition ( Cassiel would never do a thing like that ) , while intolerant civs should be able to use it.

 

[Iceciro]

Archos? Religion of Big Queen Spider
Cualli? Shadow PRIEST of Agruonn. Nuff said.
Illians? Auric Ascended - does as say on tin.
Kahdi - Serves Oghma (wrong or right, that's his intent.)
Mazatl? More lizard-people gods.
Scions of Patria? The biggest personality cult ever.

As an FYI to all the Agnostic/Intolerant civs aside from the Grigori, should go in this thread since I already wrote it up for some other discussion.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, your desire for a repeatable Purge ritual is quite simple to accomplish, just need to specify a cooldown for it and you're set.

I think that team discussion has decided that Intollerant was never supposed to block research of the techs, those civs still want to know about the form/function of those Gods, they just don't care to worship them. We've also mostly agreed that it was a LONG time ago, and quite likely we got distracted from finishing the entire thing (I was re-writing how religious spread happens for Agnostic Leaders, and Vehem asked me to slip in the ability to block natural spread altogether, which I did. I think he HAD requested that I block Founding of religious cities for that same case, but I don't think I had ever actually done so)

 

[HadesScorn]

I support the OP on this one.

One of the main functions of Intolerant/Agnostic is to balance otherwise powerful civs. Thematically, there are already units/buildings that reflect their unique state-religion. Rather than complicate the modmod, I'd say leave as is. Maybe a dedicated believer could create a modmodmod. That could be fun.

 

[DavidB1111]

Also, why would Agnostics want to stab you in the throat with a knife anyway? I don't get it?

But um, to be honest, intolerant should be the nastiest one, while Agnostic means "I don't believe there's any Gods, but hey, if they do exist, I couldn't care less. "
So while they can't do a state religion adoption, they should be able to stand religion spreading to their cities.

Also, I agree with Purge being removed from Cassiel at the very least. Cassiel isn't quite a mad God.
Heh, even Perpentech (sp?) wouldn't do something like that, and he's insane.

 

[WarKirby]

But um, to be honest, intolerant should be the nastiest one, while Agnostic means "I don't believe there's any Gods, but hey, if they do exist, I couldn't care less. "

I disagree here. This is true in the real world, but in erebus, proof of the gods is all around you. denying their existence is impossible. In erebus, I see agnostic more akin to


"The gods are just big powerful beings. Why call them gods. What have they done to deserve our worship"

Cassiel is ovciously aware of the gods' existence, but just seems to believe them unworthy of worship.

 

[Duruk]

Having the faction specific things as religions could work, though might it not detract from their uniqueness?

Converting to The White Hand might be fun though. As long as it gives the same 2 in snow that the illians have

I've always thought that The White Hand should be a (really overpowered) religion, but it could only be founded by Illians and if anyone else adopted it they would automatically capitulate.

As for agnostic, I think WarKirby's got it right. Unlike the real world, in FFH2 there is a ton of irrefutable proof that the gods exist, and to not believe in them would be crazy. Hence, agnosticism wouldn't be disbelief so much as simply choosing not to worship. (because worship is a product of Agares's fall, because the gods are cruel, because you seek to overthrow the gods, whatever your personal reason).

 

[zup]

Irrefutable? One could just claim or believe all those phenomena were caused by some insane and insanely powerful archmage. We all know Kylorin (who became an archmage on his own) is behind it all.

 

[DavidB1111]

Ah, WarKirby, I concede that point indeed. But hey, at the very least, Cassiel wouldn't randomly purge the unfaithful. Neither would Perpentach, and he's insane. That's saying something right there.

At least, I know I wouldn't.

 

[Duruk]

If priests could shoot fire from their hands, demons were invading and the God of Winter was ascending in the real world, I'd be much more inclined to believe

As for it all just being an archmage, I've got two replys.
1) That sounds like the One, and I'm pretty sure the Luonnotar are the only ones who believe in him.
2) There is an archmage in Arawn's vault who's trying to overthrow him and become the new god of death (if I remember correctly). Unfortunately, I've forgotten his name.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Laroth IIRC. not that I know who he is, but I've read the name somewhere