AI Caught Cheating Again

[Sarisin]

For the second time I have discovered an AI Civ (this time the Elves) building units without the required resource.

Ever since I got my second instance of Incense Thessa has been bugging me to trade Incense. I refused.

After awhile I noticed many Tigers entering my borders and attacking my units. I figured they were coming from Thessa's territory and wondered how they were being produced. Every few turns I was asked to trade Incense.

Finally, I had enough and declared war. When I entered the Elf territory I was surprised to find plenty of Priests of Leaves which cut loose Tigers constantly.

How could Thessa build Priests of Leaves without Incense?

It was too early for Conjurers, Druids, or Inquisitors to produce Tigers. Yet there were plenty of them coming from the Priests.

I checked the Resource Screen and STILL Thessa did not have Incense. It did not receive from a generous AI Civ.

I discovered this before in another game when I found Calabim producing Heavy Crossbowmen as soon as I killed 'em even though it had no metals (Copper, Iron, or Mithril) and kept pestering me to trade for them.

How can you produce Heavy Crossbowmen without metals?

Um, I guess you cheat...

Anyway, perhaps there is a bit of the Barbarian effect here where barbs can spawn units without having the necessary resources/buildings.

It's funny I am pretty close to wiping out the Elves, but still with only 2 cities left and still no Incense, I am seeing Priests appear.

Suggested explanations are welcome.

 

[woodelf]

I've been playing a long time and never knew that Priests needed Incense. I think they just need a Temple. I never have Incense and always can build Priests eventually. Of course I could be wrong if 0.16 is different than what I'm playing.

 

[Arpymaster]

Gems for priests of kilmorph
Inciense for priests of the Order and two more religions, I think
I think the fith religion requires something different from inciense and gems to build their priests.

 

[Silverkiss]

Veil requires reagents.

 

[Arpymaster]

Then The Order, Overlords and Leaves require inciense.

 

[Kael]

As far as I know it isnt possible for the AI to cheat for resources. Looking at the code it doesnt make any exception for canTrain for human players or AI players.

 

[Arpymaster]

Maybe Sarisin could post a save to check.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

If you say you saw priests, I'll believe you, but tigers can also come from mages.

 

[onedreamer]

How could Thessa build Priests of Leaves without Incense?

It was too early for Conjurers, Druids, or Inquisitors to produce Tigers. Yet there were plenty of them coming from the Priests.

Uhm... tigers are summoned by sorcery (mages) not Conjurers. That's why Priests of the Leaves can summon them (they have Divine and Sorcery). Since Priesthood and Sorcery (or Summoning for the matter) cost the same amount why would it be too early for them ? It's a regular thing to see tigers summoned from elves, incense or not incense.

I checked the Resource Screen and STILL Thessa did not have Incense. It did not receive from a generous AI Civ.

They could have had incense in the first place (via trade or else) and lost it, then started asking some from you. Are you sure this isn't the case ?

 

[Sarisin]

Uhm... tigers are summoned by sorcery (mages) not Conjurers. That's why Priests of the Leaves can summon them (they have Divine and Sorcery). Since Priesthood and Sorcery (or Summoning for the matter) cost the same amount why would it be too early for them ? It's a regular thing to see tigers summoned from elves, incense or not incense.



They could have had incense in the first place (via trade or else) and lost it, then started asking some from you. Are you sure this isn't the case ?

Summoning and Sorcery had not yet been founded, Priesthood had.

How are tigers summoned from elves?

I've ruled out the three elf units that can summon them: Priests (need incense), Mages/Conjurers (are you sure Conjurers cannot summon tigers?), and Druids (techs not founded yet).

What other elf unit could be producing the Tigers?

Your last statement is a possibility, but not likely or I wouldn't have had the constant requests for Incense. It is a scarce resource and I had two of them - it was a huge map though. Maybe another civ had incense, but I don't think two instances with one for trade. Other civs had Leaves and I only saw Tigers from Thessa.

Also, when I went to war with the elves, I killed a good number of Priests and still they kept appearing. By this time I checked the resource box - no incense.

Again, when you play against the elves, you get to expect what strategy the AI will employ. One is to summon plenty of Tigers...apparently whether or not resource/tech requirements are met.

I would probably ignore this and think maybe I just missed something, but the example with Calabim Heavy Crossbowmen and no metals made me think it is possible.

However, if Kael is saying the program will definitely not allow it, then I apologize and must have missed something somewhere.

 

[Sureshot]

if you were playing on a difficulty higher than Noble then i wouldn't be surprised by cheating, thats how the AI is harder on harder difficulties. as i understand it, Noble is the last stage where the AI plays fair, everything after is just successive levels of greater cheating which includes: free startup units, free techs, increased research and production, free happiness and health, and free unit unkeep.. and who knows what else.

 

[Chip56]

Yep at higher lvls they also get a bonus against baberian units.
But its still better then many other games.
(I played homm3 a short while ago at highest lvl its incredible how much they cheat...)

 

[eerr]

Summoning and Sorcery had not yet been founded, Priesthood had.

How are tigers summoned from elves?

I've ruled out the three elf units that can summon them: Priests (need incense), Mages/Conjurers (are you sure Conjurers cannot summon tigers?), and Druids (techs not founded yet).

What other elf unit could be producing the Tigers?

Your last statement is a possibility, but not likely or I wouldn't have had the constant requests for Incense. It is a scarce resource and I had two of them - it was a huge map though. Maybe another civ had incense, but I don't think two instances with one for trade. Other civs had Leaves and I only saw Tigers from Thessa.

Also, when I went to war with the elves, I killed a good number of Priests and still they kept appearing. By this time I checked the resource box - no incense.

Again, when you play against the elves, you get to expect what strategy the AI will employ. One is to summon plenty of Tigers...apparently whether or not resource/tech requirements are met.

I would probably ignore this and think maybe I just missed something, but the example with Calabim Heavy Crossbowmen and no metals made me think it is possible.

However, if Kael is saying the program will definitely not allow it, then I apologize and must have missed something somewhere.

it could be the old "capture hundreds of tiger from someone who is spamming them at you" trick
who"else" could be making the tigers?

 

[Kael]

it could be the old "capture hundreds of tiger from someone who is spamming them at you" trick
who"else" could be making the tigers?

Thats an excellent point, very easy for the Fellowship since they prefer the recon branch of the tree so they are quick to get units capable of capturing animals.

BTW, the Summon Tiger spell doesn't exist in "Fire". There is a new spell in its slot that works better (no more tiger spam, no more free tigers in all your carnivals).

 

[eerr]

Thats an excellent point, very easy for the Fellowship since they prefer the recon branch of the tree so they are quick to get units capable of capturing animals.

BTW, the Summon Tiger spell doesn't exist in "Fire". There is a new spell in its slot that works better (no more tiger spam, no more free tigers in all your carnivals).

hmmm... nature sorcery II... what could it be?
(yeah, tigers weren't very flavorful for mages)

 

[xanaqui42]

if you were playing on a difficulty higher than Noble then i wouldn't be surprised by cheating, thats how the AI is harder on harder difficulties. as i understand it, Noble is the last stage where the AI plays fair, everything after is just successive levels of greater cheating which includes: free startup units, free techs, increased research and production, free happiness and health, and free unit unkeep.. and who knows what else.

There's quite a bit of detail on the subject here.

The big items are:
Monarch+ - free tech.
Prince+ - More starting units, higher work rate modifier, higher growth, faster training (other than world units), faster create (other than world create), less civic upkeep, era modifiers
Noble+ - faster construction (other than world constructs)
Warlord+ - lower unit cost
Chieftain+ - lower unit supply, lower inflation, lower war weariness
Settler+ - lower upgrade cost

This is ignoring both the places where the AI has an artificial disadvantage/ the human has an artificial advantage (quite a few places at lower levels), and the AI's combat odds against animals and barbarians.

 

[Arpymaster]

There's quite a bit of detail on the subject here.

The big items are:
Monarch+ - free tech.
Prince+ - More starting units, higher work rate modifier, higher growth, faster training (other than world units), faster create (other than world create), less civic upkeep, era modifiers
Noble+ - faster construction (other than world constructs)
Warlord+ - lower unit cost
Chieftain+ - lower unit supply, lower inflation, lower war weariness
Settler+ - lower upgrade cost

This is ignoring both the places where the AI has an artificial disadvantage/ the human has an artificial advantage (quite a few places at lower levels), and the AI's combat odds against animals and barbarians.

Is this true? If yes, then why to play on higher levels? I'm playing as the Calabim in my last game on monarch, small map + 5 civs and I'm crashing them one after another easily... I was thinking on leveling to emperor in a few games, but if they get soo many bonifications as to build units without prerequisites, then you can't make war in the same way as they do (choke their resources)

 

[onedreamer]

Thats an excellent point, very easy for the Fellowship since they prefer the recon branch of the tree so they are quick to get units capable of capturing animals.

a possibility, but in any case the OP was seeing more Priests coming.

To the OP: any chance to have a save game ?

BTW, the Summon Tiger spell doesn't exist in "Fire". There is a new spell in its slot that works better (no more tiger spam, no more free tigers in all your carnivals).

NooOOOoooOOooOooo !!!!

 

[Sureshot]

There's quite a bit of detail on the subject here.

The big items are:
Monarch+ - free tech.
Prince+ - More starting units, higher work rate modifier, higher growth, faster training (other than world units), faster create (other than world create), less civic upkeep, era modifiers
Noble+ - faster construction (other than world constructs)
Warlord+ - lower unit cost
Chieftain+ - lower unit supply, lower inflation, lower war weariness
Settler+ - lower upgrade cost

This is ignoring both the places where the AI has an artificial disadvantage/ the human has an artificial advantage (quite a few places at lower levels), and the AI's combat odds against animals and barbarians.

the Hints thingies said that Noble was supposed to be fair play... damn lying AI cheaters!!

that file claims you can get warriors or scouts from goody huts on deity, but ive never ever gotten either on deity

 

[xanaqui42]

Is this true? If yes, then why to play on higher levels? I'm playing as the Calabim in my last game on monarch, small map + 5 civs and I'm crashing them one after another easily... I was thinking on leveling to emperor in a few games, but if they get soo many bonifications as to build units without prerequisites, then you can't make war in the same way as they do (choke their resources)

I have no evidence (other than the above claim) that they can create units without resources; they merely have lower costs (at higher levels) to do almost everything with them (include build them). However, I have not yet reviewed the C++ code on this topic, so it's possible that something that would allow it is there.

I will note, however, that the vast majority of the time, if I destroy an opponent's last resource of a type, they stop building units that require that resource. My assumption is that the exceptions are due to trades; this is supported by the single time when such units were stopped by my attacking most of that player's (non-military) resources.