AI or 3D Engine

[LAW_FREAK]

I've seen many threads where people complain about the AI in civ3, so I'm posting a poll to see what everyone thinks.

 

[warpstorm]

While I would rather an improved AI, a 3D engine is practically a given these days (this isn't as expensive as you'd think since they developed their 3D engine for Pirates! already - in fact, it makes the artwork cheaper to produce).

There is also the reality of the publishing situation. A AAA publisher in 2005 is going to very unlikely to publish a 2D game at all.

 

[waldoa]

Personally, I think the units in civ3 are well-rendered enough, but the AI is friggin ******** sometimes. But I hear tell they are rebuilding civ4 from the ground up so maybe we'll get both

 

[Bibor]

I voted 3D engine! Guess why? Because they are going to implement it anyway.

And they are going to ruin the AI again anyway, so what's the point?

-kirby

 

[microbe]

This isn't a fair poll.

Maybe I can open a poll to ask "what do you want, the world or $200?" I guess I'd pick the $200, because I know that could be real.

 

[Yaype]

There sure are a lot of pessimistic expectations for a game that is not coming out for quite a while yet......

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Well, unfortunately, I believe more man hours will go into unit shadows than AI because of the perception that eye candy might sell millions.

 

[Turner]

Moderator Action: Thread moved to Civ4 Ideas & Suggestions.

 

[Dida]

Oh I hate 3D games. They not only increase system requirement but also actually make the games much much more ugly.
Beautiful 2D graphic is what I want. And don't let me down on the AI, the civ3 AI is stupid, it can't even handle unit and city trading, please, change that!

 

[Psychonaut777]

I hope to see both. They will definately make the game 3D since that's a given in modern games. I don't see this as hurting the game in anyway at all, infact it can add a lot to gameplay with new and interesting terrain effects.

I really really hope to see them improve the AI. This is a strategy single player game for most players, which means a good AI is needed. I don't like playing when the AI must cheat to keep up. I would like to see the AI use human type tactics - ie, irrigate, mine, road intelligently, place cities strategically, negotiate deals, explore, etc etc. It is really difficult to do this but if they do it could be the best game ever made.. in the end the game's graphics will be outdated within 18 months but the gameplay can live on forever - ie, civ1/2/3, which means the AI is really important..

 

[eg577]

I voted for a better AI. I don't agree with the viewpoint that making a good AI is unrealistic.

 

[thestonesfan]

The game has to have graphics, right? They can't be the same as in Civ3, right? Well, then they are going to have to give it new graphics. It's 2004, so they're going to be in 3D. As far as I know, it's not any more difficult to render a game in 3D than in 2D. It's probably easier.

So what is everyone's problem with 3D? They don't look any worse! Have you guys seen the Pirates 2 screenshots? They are great! And as far as system specs go, hey, that's the industry. I imagine that Civ4 will have substantially less demands than most games.

I just wish people would come to grips with the damn 3D graphics.

That said, I would rather it have top-notch AI than top-notch graphics.

 

[TheDarkPhantom]

People's probelm with 3D graphics is that Civ3 worked fine with good (i.e. pseudo-3D) 2D graphics, the fact that they will be 3D is not obvious, Civ3 gameplay has no need, and is not enhanced in any way other than aesthetics (which I admit is important, but Civ3 looks pretty good as it is). If there was no downside to 3D graphics then obviosly we wouldn't object, but there is - any game with rendered 3D graphics is going to require more processor power and bigger graphcis cards, and when its really unnecessary for Civ, then this just seems like a waste, I like the fact that Civ3 can generally play pretty fast on most machines, I don't need better graphics, nor do most Civ players, so why should we give endure longer loading times, the need for better graphics cards and greater processor usage to get them?

Improved graphics are fine, excellent even, but I would focus them on a more aesthetic interface generally, not a 3D rendering game engine. But above all I would like to see a more intelligent, more devious, more REASONABLE (a not often stated weakening effect of more intelligent computers) and more strategic AI.

 

[warpstorm]

There is a good reason for 3D. Atari won't release a 2D game in 2005 (or later) as a AAA title. If Atari doesn't publish it, Firaxis can't work on it (last I heard Atari owns the IP rights to the entire Civ line).

 

[warpstorm]

Here is sample of what Pirates! map will look like.

 

[eg577]

This 3D thing is bugging me. In my book, civ is a 2d game because it is played on a 2d grid. If we are talking bout graphics then I'd say civ3 is 3d. But apparently the game designers don't think civ3 is 3d, otherwise there would be nothing special about civ4 being 3d. So what the heck civ4 going to look like...camera angles and such? I don't want to look at my stupid warriors from multipule angles.

 

[thestonesfan]

I doubt Civ3 is the model of graphic efficiency. It can get pretty slow on big maps.

 

[warpstorm]

This 3D thing is bugging me. In my book, civ is a 2d game because it is played on a 2d grid. If we are talking bout graphics then I'd say civ3 is 3d. But apparently the game designers don't think civ3 is 3d, otherwise there would be nothing special about civ4 being 3d. So what the heck civ4 going to look like...camera angles and such? I don't want to look at my stupid warriors from multipule angles.

Civ3 is not 3D. All the artwork is done with 2D tiles laid out in a grid. Any illusion of 3D is just that, an illusion. (I should know, I've fiddled with every one of those tiles at some point or other).

What will Civ4 look like in 3D? Look at the picture of the Pirates! map that I included a few posts up. Civ4 will use the same graphics engine for rendering as that uses (Gamebryo). If they use the same artists once Pirates! ships, likely there will be a similar graphics style.

Actually, there should be no big deal about Civ going 3D, nearly every other game in every other genre has already gone there.

 

[dh_epic]

I don't think these two are diametrically opposed. In fact, I think we can take these two for granted.

Things that are diametrically opposed would be two different things that make the game more complex... if they both make you spend 15 more seconds per turn on average, then there's no way they'll implement both. Implementing one will make the game take 2 hours longer... implementing both will make the game take 4 hours longer.

These tough choices are very gameplay focused, I think. Right now, they're probably still working on the actual graphical engine, and creating some kind of scripting API.

 

[warpstorm]

They purchased the 3D engine. They are using the Gamebryo engine for rendering. (This does not mean that they don't have any programmers dedicated to doing the 3D rendering, Gamebryo isn't that good- it's just an engine).