AI suggestions

[Necratoid]

It's never occurred to me to build a line of forts to a landlocked city to give said city a passage to the sea. Wow! I usually don't build Forts because I don't use the Civic(s) that grants them Hammers or Gold.

It didn't occur to me either... that may actually be useful. However, the workers do it reflexively as a religious rite.

I mean that my workers are building a line of forts from a fort only junk tile (at least at that point in the game) directly to the fort they build directly outside my city.... they build an armored invasion route. Granted this is mostly from desert/ice cities unless marsh or something do it. The forts are composed of terrain entirely inside my culture borders and the Zone of control extends entirely within my borders. Meaning the sole purpose of these forts is giving invaders fortifications to invade by,.. I never order them to do it... its just the worker religion to build endless forts.

Maybe an AI close to you has Neanderthal Embassy and is making neander units to hem you in?

On turn 1-200ish in an eternity game? I haven't actually seen that building... but as they are spawning in the forest I have my doubts. Good move, for them, if there is a bulding that lets you control where the barbarian units spawn themselves. I tried an early raging barbarians game and it would actually speed up my growth (ignoring the lack of terrain improvement tiles) if I got from killing them. While killing less of my guys for far more of theirs. The difference between normal neanderthalls and raging neanderthalls is that one gets themselves killed off attacking my cities, providing me with exp, and the other lurks just out of sight in forests killing anything that moves and being generally miserable for me.

I know its likely being fixed... but if raging animals attacked my towns (and couldn't pillage) I'd enjoy raging barbarians and a way to speed up my games. The Moat of Doom, with those tantalizing animals randomly flowing through it, combined with all the forests spawning directly towards me like an organic tower walking attack... the Neanderthalls might as welll be the Zerg. My early culture's paranoia as seen in their mythology must be insanely Lovecraftian... like the Summerian mythos. The Gods are actively trying to kill them... only instead of with flash floods its with ominous creeping forests that spew forth axe weilding Doom!

 

[Koshling]

Maybe an AI close to you has Neanderthal Embassy and is making neander units to hem you in?

It's never occurred to me to build a line of forts to a landlocked city to give said city a passage to the sea. Wow! I usually don't build Forts because I don't use the Civic(s) that grants them Hammers or Gold.

JosEPh

It doesn't. You can span ONE tile that way, but no more. Only land tiles that are coastal can be moved into by ships with either forst or cities on them.

 

[EldrinFal]

On turn 1-200ish in an eternity game? I haven't actually seen that building... but as they are spawning in the forest I have my doubts. Good move, for them, if there is a bulding that lets you control where the barbarian units spawn themselves. I tried an early raging barbarians game and it would actually speed up my growth (ignoring the lack of terrain improvement tiles) if I got from killing them. While killing less of my guys for far more of theirs. The difference between normal neanderthalls and raging neanderthalls is that one gets themselves killed off attacking my cities, providing me with exp, and the other lurks just out of sight in forests killing anything that moves and being generally miserable for me.

I know its likely being fixed... but if raging animals attacked my towns (and couldn't pillage) I'd enjoy raging barbarians and a way to speed up my games. The Moat of Doom, with those tantalizing animals randomly flowing through it, combined with all the forests spawning directly towards me like an organic tower walking attack... the Neanderthalls might as welll be the Zerg. My early culture's paranoia as seen in their mythology must be insanely Lovecraftian... like the Summerian mythos. The Gods are actively trying to kill them... only instead of with flash floods its with ominous creeping forests that spew forth axe weilding Doom!

Neanderthals are only set to spawn in the forest during wave 3, the last and shortest of the three. It's a setting of year -6000 to -5000. Prior to that they spawn on certain features in wave 1 and then bonuses in wave 2. There is some overlapping, with the last 1000 years being the greatest boom before they stop completely.

I tuned it using Raging with the idea that the spawn speed is faster so if that was manageable than normal should be fine. However, if we get more reports of amassing neanderthals, then we can tweak some more.

 

[Necratoid]

I'm going to have to play a game and time it out... but that short spawning time span seems wrong or something in public v17. I end up with as many as 8 or 9 or them on one side and 3-4 on the other... as I said a Neanderthall moat. I can't really clear them out as the keep spawning and I lose unit because they can't last against 3-4 of the unless paired up on a forested hill. Preferably fortified. Once they show up I only get animals that attack my fortified troops along my borders. Going after animals just leaves my often wounded hunting unit open to attack and the animal he just subduded barely alive on a different square.

On a more AI based line of thought, I think the reason the moats occur is the same reason that back in v10 scouts kept circling my base snarfing up all the animals. Something about the player draws them in toward their capital. Possibly the reason units set to kill things or explore wander around inside my cultural borders so much.

 

[strategyonly]

I'm going to have to play a game and time it out... but that short spawning time span seems wrong or something in public v17. I end up with as many as 8 or 9 or them on one side and 3-4 on the other... as I said a Neanderthall moat. I can't really clear them out as the keep spawning and I lose unit because they can't last against 3-4 of the unless paired up on a forested hill. Preferably fortified. Once they show up I only get animals that attack my fortified troops along my borders. Going after animals just leaves my often wounded hunting unit open to attack and the animal he just subduded barely alive on a different square.

On a more AI based line of thought, I think the reason the moats occur is the same reason that back in v10 scouts kept circling my base snarfing up all the animals. Something about the player draws them in toward their capital. Possibly the reason units set to kill things or explore wander around inside my cultural borders so much.

You need to look in the thread Tricks and Tips, there is an easy way to get rid of those pesky Neanderthals.

 

[EldrinFal]

I'm going to have to play a game and time it out... but that short spawning time span seems wrong or something in public v17. I end up with as many as 8 or 9 or them on one side and 3-4 on the other... as I said a Neanderthall moat. I can't really clear them out as the keep spawning and I lose unit because they can't last against 3-4 of the unless paired up on a forested hill. Preferably fortified. Once they show up I only get animals that attack my fortified troops along my borders. Going after animals just leaves my often wounded hunting unit open to attack and the animal he just subduded barely alive on a different square.

On a more AI based line of thought, I think the reason the moats occur is the same reason that back in v10 scouts kept circling my base snarfing up all the animals. Something about the player draws them in toward their capital. Possibly the reason units set to kill things or explore wander around inside my cultural borders so much.

Ah. I should have asked if you're using SVN or not. I believe the Neanderthal spawn tweaks were made after public v17 was released. But just in case, I've asked AIAndy in another thread about possibly making a global limit to the number of spawns so if the max is reached or greater it wouldn't spawn anymore. There could be more difficulties involved than I can think of though, so we'll see.

 

[Necratoid]

I don't actually want to remove the Neanderthalls... as I said the idea of my tribe creating a mythos about evil creeping forests and it killer tree spawn (Neanderthalls) amuses me greatly. At least the moat keeps me from seeing all my animals snarfed up by AI scout units that constantly circle my base.

My problem is that the AI, thread topic relivance, seems to be under the psychic impression of where I am with its patrols, explores, and such. I think the AI is programmed to home in on the player and that is why the moat pops up. Also, why I end up with so many troops sent to explore or seek and destroy running around in circles in my base.

On another note, I got around to a test game using raging barbarians, eternity speed, huge map, 29 AI and me (all at nobel). Turn 51, 11286 BC... The raging barbarians neanderthalls kill their first AI off 1 player. This is in no way 6-5000 BC as the Neanderthall spawn times, as was mentioned.

Again you may have fixed that or changed that now, in the test version.

 

[Koshling]

I don't actually want to remove the Neanderthalls... as I said the idea of my tribe creating a mythos about evil creeping forests and it killer tree spawn (Neanderthalls) amuses me greatly. At least the moat keeps me from seeing all my animals snarfed up by AI scout units that constantly circle my base.

My problem is that the AI, thread topic relivance, seems to be under the psychic impression of where I am with its patrols, explores, and such. I think the AI is programmed to home in on the player and that is why the moat pops up. Also, why I end up with so many troops sent to explore or seek and destroy running around in circles in my base.

On another note, I got around to a test game using raging barbarians, eternity speed, huge map, 29 AI and me (all at nobel). Turn 51, 11286 BC... The raging barbarians neanderthalls kill their first AI off 1 player. This is in no way 6-5000 BC as the Neanderthall spawn times, as was mentioned.

Again you may have fixed that or changed that now, in the test version.

Nope. Just paranoia. There is no such coding in the AI.

 

[strategyonly]

Is it just me, or is it taking alot LONGER per turn after Renaissance Era?

 

[Koshling]

Is it just me, or is it taking alot LONGER per turn after Renaissance Era?

Dunno - haven't got out of prehistopric yet on V17. Post a save game and I'll look at it when I get out o my pile I'm snowed under (ie - in a week or so I expect)

 

[strategyonly]

Dunno - haven't got out of prehistoric yet on V17. Post a save game and I'll look at it when I get out o my pile I'm snowed under (ie - in a week or so I expect)

Holy Moly, you got "snow" already, dang glad i dont live there.

 

[EldrinFal]

I don't actually want to remove the Neanderthalls... as I said the idea of my tribe creating a mythos about evil creeping forests and it killer tree spawn (Neanderthalls) amuses me greatly. At least the moat keeps me from seeing all my animals snarfed up by AI scout units that constantly circle my base.

My problem is that the AI, thread topic relivance, seems to be under the psychic impression of where I am with its patrols, explores, and such. I think the AI is programmed to home in on the player and that is why the moat pops up. Also, why I end up with so many troops sent to explore or seek and destroy running around in circles in my base.

On another note, I got around to a test game using raging barbarians, eternity speed, huge map, 29 AI and me (all at nobel). Turn 51, 11286 BC... The raging barbarians neanderthalls kill their first AI off 1 player. This is in no way 6-5000 BC as the Neanderthall spawn times, as was mentioned.

Again you may have fixed that or changed that now, in the test version.

A lot of changes in the SVN to the spawning including rate, density, and types of plots they spawn from. There used to be big issues with the Neanderthals amassing in great number, but I haven't seen that with recent changes even on Raging Barbs, which should double the spawning. So I think much of your issues are addressed in the SVN.

Keep in mind that the amount of spawning is also based on the amount of Features/Bonuses/Terrain that you have on your map; the ones they spawn from. I varied that in my recent changes from what it was originally with them spawning from 2-3 bonuses only.

Feel free to get yourself connected to the SVN to experience the latest changes, though it does come with the risk of sometimes being buggy. The next official release may be still be a few weeks away.

 

[Necratoid]

I think I'll stay out of the SVN for now... v17 is stable enough I can actually get past industrialism now (previosly a v10 player).

I played through a raging game (29 AI plus me, 6 survived the Neanderthal rush), its nice except one thing. I got too many animals at one point, over enthusiasticness on my part, but I was mainly after generals, and bankrupted so it started deleting units. I deeply question the results. First it took down anyone with more than 3 xp... totally ignoring the massive pile of animals. Lets see 15 odd lions or the deployed and in combat rogue with 40 odd xp... rogue it is.

I'm not sure if this is an intended punishment system... nasty suprize that was, or if its a lottery and animals are totally ignored... but the traditional, stoning prize, style lottery seems made of malignance and pain.

However, should the animals be excluded method be our method, I can think of a way to nuke any AI's army by just donating animals at it until it only has animals. Open borders.... kill them with kindness.

So RNG god mocking me or silly budgeting procedure?

 

[strategyonly]

One thing i have been noticing alot lately (playing with barb world) is that the civ builds lots and lots of units, which is nice, but the POP stays at pop 1 for over 500-700 turns?? Just seems weird?

 

[Koshling]

One thing i have been noticing alot lately (playing with barb world) is that the civ builds lots and lots of units, which is nice, but the POP stays at pop 1 for over 500-700 turns?? Just seems weird?

Barb AI places very low priority on anything but military (always has). Recent civic changes mean that you need a LOT more food early on to grow, so the barbs never really get enough.

 

[strategyonly]

Barb AI places very low priority on anything but military (always has). Recent civic changes mean that you need a LOT more food early on to grow, so the barbs never really get enough.

Shucks, because i like (most of the time) where they build their cities and i really like taking over them, but if only at POP 1, then they ALWAYs get razed, and i dont like that part, "I'm Just Sayin."

 

[Koshling]

Shucks, because i like (most of the time) where they build their cities and i really like taking over them, but if only at POP 1, then they ALWAYs get razed, and i dont like that part, "I'm Just Sayin."

We can give barbs a growth multiplier that only applies to them if you like.

 

[strategyonly]

We can give barbs a growth multiplier that only applies to them if you like.

As long as its ONLY barbs and not too much, then i say go for it, as long as they at least grow to POP 2 everything is fine after that.

btw, on a the mod side of the house can you take alook at almost all of The_Lopez's NEW dll/modcomps, some of them look pretty good? BUT only when YOU have time, and only then, thx.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think I'll stay out of the SVN for now... v17 is stable enough I can actually get past industrialism now (previosly a v10 player).

I played through a raging game (29 AI plus me, 6 survived the Neanderthal rush), its nice except one thing. I got too many animals at one point, over enthusiasticness on my part, but I was mainly after generals, and bankrupted so it started deleting units. I deeply question the results. First it took down anyone with more than 3 xp... totally ignoring the massive pile of animals. Lets see 15 odd lions or the deployed and in combat rogue with 40 odd xp... rogue it is.

I'm not sure if this is an intended punishment system... nasty suprize that was, or if its a lottery and animals are totally ignored... but the traditional, stoning prize, style lottery seems made of malignance and pain.

However, should the animals be excluded method be our method, I can think of a way to nuke any AI's army by just donating animals at it until it only has animals. Open borders.... kill them with kindness.

So RNG god mocking me or silly budgeting procedure?

If I remember correctly the main choice is distance from a city and upkeep cost. Animals have no extra upkeep cost, rogues do.

 

[Koshling]

If I remember correctly the main choice is distance from a city and upkeep cost. Animals have no extra upkeep cost, rogues do.

Subdued animals are great people as far as the AI is concerned. It will never trash GPs I don't think.

Since I did the work to allow new unitAIs to be added without losing backward compatibility a month or so ago, maybe now is the time to use it to split off a UINTAI_SUBDUED_ANIMAL which behaves like a great engineer for the most part but is not somethign the AI is too afraid to trash?