ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[Gyathaar]

I didn't make Buddhism my state religion. I'll wait to see how things look diplomatically first, or until I need to raise the happiness cap on my cities. Then again, I'll probably need it for my other cities' 1st border pop, won't I? We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

If you dont pick a state religion, then ALL religions will give culture (but they dont give happiness unless you are in free religion), if you pick a state religion, then ONLY the state religion will give culture (and it gives happines)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Captain Studebaker managed to kick away two commerce by failing to select his research path prior to ending his first turn.

Try one from column B - it looks like I owe Studebaker an apology.

You have to lose the research bonus, otherwise you could accumulate research without declaring which religious tech you were going to spend it on until you knew which one you could get.

Nope, they went the other way with this one - after the end of turn 4, if you haven't chosen a tech to research, your research is directed toward whatever the AI scores as your best research option.

Which does leave you with a small optimization, in that if you were going to start by researching a goody tech; put off starting the research for a few turns - if you pop the tech from a hut, you won't have wasted anything.

 

[TheArchduke]

Don't delay grabbing the horses. Use your 2nd city to snag it asap. Don't let Mehmed take it.

And with Warlords one thing is important:

Chariots actually do +50 % Damage to Axeman. Which make them the perfect anti-barb duty unit and even viable against the AI.

So get those Horses Asap.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

And with Warlords one thing is important:

Chariots actually do +50 % Damage to Axeman. Which make them the perfect anti-barb duty unit and even viable against the AI.

So get those Horses Asap.

+100% against axes, actually. Only on offense though. Shock brings them to a whopping +125%.

I actually like the idea of a construction bee-line. War elephants are pretty powerful critters, and, in my experience, catapults aren't actually bad at handling spearmen, now that that siege weapons are actually made to defend if they're the best defender. But, again, I doubt you'd put off IW that long. I didn't mean go for it right away, but that it becomes a greater priority without copper.

But be Indian! Awe your poor doomed neighbors with gigantic beasts of war, not some pissy littleman with an axe! Think of the COOL factor! Besides, Elephants are so ridiculously powerful they're better off than axes against archers anyways....

 

[johnny_rico]

I didn't expect the construction slingshot to have any support but now that you have no copper, it looks like people are weighing in. Since the ALC is all about trying new things, I'd say it is worth a shot.

Getting the horses is clutch. You simply have to have them, especially if you pursue the construction slingshot. There is no flexibility for this on monarch. As far as other cities, I would build forward as much as possible and fill in later.

If you decide against the construction slingshot, I'd recommend MC over CoL, because you founded buddhism. Is Asoka organized? If so, I suppose you've got access to cheap courthouses. I find that I start building courthouses long after I acquire CoL. I'd rather build troops, workers, granary, forge, wonder, etc.. Plus, I think the MC has more trade value than CoL. Once confucianism has been founded, the AI places a low value on the tech, or so it seems. MC however, is a tech everyone wants, once someone has it.

 

[Sisiutil]

Hmmm... a construction bee-line for elephants and axes? Different. I kinda like it. We'll need to divert to Hunting to hook up the big grey beasties, of course.

So what would the tech path be? Sounds like I should stick with the Wheel for now. Then...

Hunting
Priesthood (start Oracle; pre-chop forests to rush it)
Pottery
Writing
Mathematics (finish chopping forests)
Construction (from Oracle)

The only thing that makes me nervous is that extra research step of going after Mathematics. Usually I time the Oracle with Writing to get Code of Laws. I suppose I could leave Hunting until after Mathematics, but the hammers from the ivory camp would help with building the Oracle. OTOH, we did save several turns by popping BW from a hut, so we might have time.

In the meantime, I agree that horses are my next priority; my 1st Settler will attempt to claim the ones to the west. Settling on the stone for my 3rd city is appealing. I can still have a fishing village on the NW peninsula and a banana plantation to the south. It's not a bad thing to have a gold mine shared between two cities; if one's building a worker or settler, the other can work it.

 

[johnny_rico]

Wheel
Hunting
Priesthood
Pottery
Masonry (construction pre-requisite)
Writing
Math
Construction (this is a long tech path, look how far back priesthood is. You wouldn't even have to chop the oracle. What else could you build, in the oracle city before starting the oracle. Or you could chop and have it sit around with one turn to go)
Alphabet
Literature (at this point you should be able to trade for every tech you don't have as well as having a plan for where the GL is going)
At this point, it will probably be game dependant on what to research. I'd prefer calendar if you haven't built too many monuments. You have wine so Monarchy is nice (lots of happiness).

Good point about the gold mine.

 

[drkodos]

. It's not a bad thing to have a gold mine shared between two cities; if one's building a worker or settler, the other can work it.

Gold mines, gems, and other commerce resources are excellent for sharing.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Hmmm... a construction bee-line for elephants and axes?

s/axes/cats/

So what would the tech path be? Sounds like I should stick with the Wheel for now. Then...

Hunting
Priesthood (start Oracle; pre-chop forests to rush it)
Pottery
Writing
Mathematics (finish chopping forests)
Construction (from Oracle)

The only thing that makes me nervous is that extra research step of going after Mathematics. Usually I time the Oracle with Writing to get Code of Laws.

Why would researching Mathematics after Writing have an impact on your ability to take Code of Laws from The Oracle? Once you have Writing, it doesn't matter what you do after that.

The thing that makes me nervous is not having any metal at all for a very long time. War elephants are nice, but a fortified, aggressive spearman in a city on a hill is going to tear them apart. Also remember that barbarians have spearmen now, so the chariot vs. axeman advantage has its limits.

I suppose I could leave Hunting until after Mathematics, but the hammers from the ivory camp would help with building the Oracle.

It's not just the hammers. You'll also get a happiness resource, which should help quite a bit on Monarch. I wouldn't suggest delaying Hunting.

 

[johnny_rico]

Also remember that barbarians have spearmen now, so the chariot vs. axeman advantage has its limits.

I have seen spearman present in barb cities, but I haven't seen them roaming the land. Given his locale, I don't think barbarians are going to pose much of a threat.

The AI has doesn't build many spears as well. If you run into a couple, you can use cats to soften them up. Elephants with cover will be good for taking a city or two. Scout out toku, find his copper and iron, and pillage it. Then the elephants can clean up. I usually try to get rid of toku asap if he is a neighbor.

Also, I think Sisiutil is including math in his tech list for the construction slingshot.

 

[drkodos]

s/axes/cats/



Why would researching Mathematics after Writing have an impact on your ability to take Code of Laws from The Oracle? Once you have Writing, it doesn't matter what you do after that.

Correct. It is only a requirement for Civil Service, not CoL.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

Also, I think Sisiutil is including math in his tech list for the construction slingshot.

Oh, you're looking to get Construction from The Oracle? That seems very optimistic. You're certainly right that you won't need to chop The Oracle, but I'm not sure you'd need to bother building it at all. How likely are you to win the race with all that stuff to research before you finish it?

 

[Jet]

It does seem a bit risky, but if he can get the gold tile worked that will help. And there is a hypothesis that the AIs favor Poly -> ToA/Parthenon instead of Oracle. It seems worth trying for fun and because of the chariot/elephant/cat situation.

Would it be faster to get Math from a great scientist?
1. Wheel / worker builds farms / (Settler / bring exploring warrior back as escort and/or use fast worker as super-scout -> horses)
2. Writing, Hunting? / (Warrior / Settler / Worker -> stone+wheat+gold)
3. Priesthood / build Library and hire 2 scientists
4. Chop Oracle while running scientists
5. Lightbulb Math from great scientist
6. Finish Oracle, get Construction.
I don't know about the timing. I suspect it wouldn't help; that is, if he wants to build another settler he can't build the library in time, and it would be faster to just research Math.

 

[patagonia]

Oh, you're looking to get Construction from The Oracle? That seems very optimistic. You're certainly right that you won't need to chop The Oracle, but I'm not sure you'd need to bother building it at all. How likely are you to win the race with all that stuff to research before you finish it?

Precisely.

Certain AIs may favour the polytheism wonders (which basically means ToA since the Parthenon always goes late), but the Oracle went in 1260BC in my last patched Monarch game so I wouldn't count your chickens on that one being left unnoticed, especially by civs wanting to grab CoL/Monarchy/Theology etc. with it (unlocking a UB or favourite civic seems to be a fairly high AI priority and if the Oracle or Pyramids will help them do that ASAP, that's what they'll shoot for).

Construction slingshot (from where you are now) requires the following techs, this being as streamlined as possible:

Priesthood, Writing, Masonry, Mathematics.

That'll leave you defending with warriors until the Oracle is built and you'll really be struggling to get all the research done in time. Sure, you could pick up a gold mine with city 2, but you'll have to settle right next to it (far from optimal) unless you want to wait 10-15 turns for a border pop and another 5 or so to get the mine built, by which time it'll be too late to have much of an impact. You could also try building a library and running 2 scientists to lightbulb maths, but you'll need to tech to writing, build a library and then wait 18 turns for him to appear before you can complete the Oracle, which at most would save a turn or two and waste your first GP into the bargain.

It's doable with a commerce-heavy start on Prince or below, possible with a philosophical leader on Monarch and a complete disaster in terms of early game strategy in almost any other situation.

Just my two cents of course.

Now get that settler out quick before Mehmed beats you to the horses. It's by far the best city site near him too and he's closer to it with the Monarch AI's early bonuses to help him!

 

[johnny_rico]

I'd have to agree with you patagonia on all counts; but, it's just a game and it would be interesting to see if it could be pulled off. Even if it is done, I wonder how long it will take to recover/enjoy the benefits of a construction slingshot. Most of these ALCs have been fairly easy victories on the part of Sisiutils play and all these hands in the cookie jar offering up advice and ideas. Because of this, I think it is worth experimenting with new ideas, however farfetched they might be.

 

[Eggolas]

Where does IW fit in?

 

[cabert]

i was one supporting a construction slingshot but I edited my post (i had forgotten one tech!).
It really is out of reach.
Go for CoL or something...

Edit : credit for construction slingshot idea to johnny_rico (post 74, this thread is really too slow ), I only supported it with a wrong optimistic evaluation.

 

[Thomas G.]

Mathematics costs 250 to research
Code of laws 350
Metal casting 450
Construction 350
Oracle is 150 hammers.
So Using Oracle for Math instead of construction would "cost" you 100 research points, but still be quite good help towards early catapults or elephants. If you get cold feet Metal casting will be a choice anyway, so I'd go ahead and plan & build oracle anyway. GPPs, mmm. And 150 hammers -> 250 research is not that bad.

I'd agree that Construction slingshot would be almost as hard as a CS slingshot (which requires CoL) - and mabye not doable on monarch.

Someone said you would only have warrior till elephants, but thats wrong, you'd have chariots. Because horses will be grabbed. Won't they? Gold comes third

Scientist for Math would sure be a new way to play this out, but it would leave you weak on defense. (Second city needs build library, and then sacrifice production due to the 2 eggheads). I'd not risk this on monarch.

Just build the oracle, take MC or Math as appropriate. This will also give time to research hunting which would make elephant tile better, and also add +1 happy face. In fact, take hunting ASAP. No reason to hold it off.

The "new" thing here would certainly be to take math for the Faster indian elephants. They could really rock the world at this time, and catapults will back them up. I think a cat-weakened spearman will be hard pressed to stop a fully rested oliphaunt. If you are able, a medic chariot will be helpful too.

Also be sure to road towards a neighbour so religion can spread with open borders. First one to see the buddha light will be rewarded by becoming your second target (and not first...)

 

[Sisiutil]

The more I think about it, the less successful I think going for a Construction slingshot will be. I was thinking the same as Thomas G., that it's nearly equivalent to a CS slingshot--very risky on Monarch. Using the Oracle for the relatively cheap Mathematics seems, I dunno, kind of wasteful.

Don't get me wrong, I think Construction is going to be a target--but wouldn't it be easier to go after iron working earlier? Don't you think there's bound to be some iron somewhere nearby? If I claim enough territory before the tech is done, it increases my chances of claiming it when it appears. Frankly, I think it'll either show up near the capital or in the northeastern desert, near my 2nd (horse) city.

I'm thinking, then, of researching the Wheel -> Hunting -> Priesthood -> Pottery -> Iron Working - > Writing. I'll work on the Oracle and if Writing isn't finished by the time it is I'll snag Metal Casting instead of CoL. Does that timing make sense or should I juggle the techs a little? In the meantime I'll claim horses ASAP, use Chariots for defense, and settle as many cities as possible.

I'll still prioritize Construction for War Elephants and Catapults afterwards.

 

[Sisiutil]

Here's my own dotmap, based mostly on DarkFyre99's with some variations--mainly settling on the stone, which made me adjust the northwest city a little so it's in the place Jet suggested. I also tried to prioritize them.

City 2 (green) is the obvious priority as its 1st border pop will claim the horses. With luck Buddhism will spread there quickly thanks to the river's trade route, but its 1st build should be a monument nonetheless; if Mehmed settles nearby, it may give me the cultural boost I need to keep that horse tile. It will be a good commerce city with those 5 flood plains and additional river tiles. Too bad about the 1 desert and 2 peaks, but no map is perfect.

However, I am tempted, despite the distance, to snag the yellow city site if it's available when my Settler gets over there. It also claims the horses and would force Mehmed south. I'd have to quickly follow up with the green city site, I think, to keep him from cutting off my two cities. Thoughts?

The light yellow city on top of the stone would be next to get the gold and wheat. After that, I think city 4 (light blue) is next in order to get what is obviously going to be my Oxford city (and likely my "Great Scientist" farm) going early. If I wait too long, the AI will have iron working and will claim the site before me--yet another reason to prioritize IW. What a stunning commerce/science city that will make! Rice and bananas to support the specialists, dye for instant $ and with Calendar, and even a couple of hills for production. No forests for chopping, however, making the mines all the more important. That also increases my incentive to go after Mehmed early, to get that Marble tile for the Great Library. I may also workshop that plains tile to its south.

The dark blue city on the west coast would come next. The AI may beat me there, but that's not a big deal--I will already have ivory and should have bananas by then, so it's really just an extra "filler" city, a decent one, though. I'm hoping for some seafood in the fog nearby--there's a real dearth of it on this map so far!

And then the NW pink city last. I don't want to make that too low a priority or the AI will send a Settler-bearing Galley over there. If I don't get the yellow site, which seems unlikely, I'll need it for the cows and wine healthy/happy combo. Too bad there's no seafood. Sigh.

And thanks DrEJ, the flying camera trick obviously worked perfectly. I used it often in Vanilla (especially for my Princes of the Universe screen caps), and I was pressing Ctrl+Alt+F repeatedly wondering why it wasn't working... until I realized Warlords has its own .INI file.