ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[Vikciukas]

Let me ask a newbie question here...
You guys are talking about settling right on the stone. Well, If it's done, we won't have access to it, right?
If that is true, the stone will be gone for good, or if we want we may have to gift that city away and raze it (or something like that) to build a quarry there?

Wrong. When settling on resource you get access to it immediatly. Additionaly, I think you will get +1 hammer in that city.

 

[kniteowl]

(By the way, something about the graphics adjustments made in either Warlords or its patch makes the grid lines in world view more difficult to see on my computer. I don't know if anyone else has experienced anything like that, but if you have a solution, let me know.)

Yea I posted this problem on the "Bugs Report" area of the Forum, Alex Told me to lower my graphics Settings. It was Originally on "High" settings, Once I lowered it to Medium the Gridlines were back and Easy to identify on the world map. Just Remember to Un-tick the "Single unit Box" or you'll end up with Single Unit Graphics throughout the entire game. I'll Post another Map with easier to read Gridlines in my next post.

 

[kniteowl]

Here's the pic with Readable gridlines, Yeah I noticed there are Strange Gridlines near the Floodpalins east of the capital... I'll post the Problem in the Bug Reports Forum.

Sorry I Don't know how to minimise the Minimap, can someone tell me? And I'll Edit the post the Map without the Minimap Screen in the Right bottom Corner.

 

[cabert]

i'd go for settling on the stone right now
Why?
because!
- because it's near the capital, so low maintenance
- because it would give you health and happiness
- because it's coastal

BUT :
- you really need wheel soon (you're researching it, so no prob here)
- you need to build a road towards delhi, you need to improve the wheat, the gold and to connect those = a second worker would be good.


I am really confident on a construction slingshot. Why? Because polytheism offers the option to build parthenon. Will the AI favour the oracle? I don't think so = less AIs building the Oracle (just my opinion).
Anyway you're going to build the Oracle in the capital only when the settler is finished. If you go writing/mathematics (already having priesthood and AH), you could be researching fast enough to have it in time.

EDIT : I forgot masonry! You need masonry for contruction and that is making this a long shot... If you go for Oracle, with writing you can take CoL as free tech at best. Still good IMHO.

 

[kniteowl]

Personally I say go for "Sailing" as soon as you can So you can Speard that Religion to coastal Cities Quicker (including AI cities)... You might get Mehmed as an Early Ally his capital looks like it's on the coast But only after you accomplish your main objectives, eg- Mathamatics for Construction slighshot if you decide to risk that.

And Also Hunting to hooking up those elephants to increase your happy cap, those floodplains will increase your growth pretty quickly.

 

[cabert]

Personally I say go for "Sailing" as soon as you can So you can Speard that Religion to coastal Cities Quicker (including AI cities)... You might get Mehmed as an Early Ally his capital looks like it's on the coast But only after you accomplish your main objectives, eg- Mathamatics for Construction slighshot if you decide to risk that.

interesting move!
not highly effective on the combat field, but diplomatically strong
now sisutil won't be playing for months

 

[DarkFyre99]

yeouch, not a lot of good city sites nearby, are there?

here's my dotmap, based on what I'd do:

I'd first settle on Green. You'll lose three tiles to deserts and mountains, but you pick up five floodplains. It would make a great science city.

If I were playing on my own level (Noble, since the AI improvements knocked me back down from prince), I'd be tempted to try and snag yellow first before our good friend Mehmed, but I'd let him build yellow instead, and take it from him. The AI has gotten a lot better at placing cities, so I'd trust him to build it where I'd build it. (Edit: If not, I'd raze what he build and build it later)

I wouldn't try to pick up the stone/wheat combination myself. You'll get the stone anyways at your next border pop, and since you're not playing a philosophical leader, snagging the pyramids for a specialist economy isn't really worth it (but tempting with all those floodplains). Dark blue is a much better city site, which I'd settle it second.

Light blue is up next. Three food resources, a river, three dyes (one you'd have to settle on), some hills for production, and a lot of jungle to turn into grasslands makes it great for a GP farm or science city.

Last but not least is the pink dot. Normally, I wouldn't settle this close to another city, but this position will give you access to three resources, including the wheat, and you can use this city to grow to towns on the plains of your capital.

Just for comparison's sake, I included the alternate green and yellow suggested in an earlier post.

It doesn't look like either of them snagged Hinduism, so I'd convert to Buddhism and try to spread it to them. It would also help you grow your borders earlier, since it'll spread along the rivers. Getting sailing would spread it along the coast as well.

 

[Vikciukas]

I vote for settling green as per DarkFyre99 dotmap. The river creates route between two cities and thus a) religion will spread; b) you will get trade route for commerse bonus. But my next city would be on stone.

Regarding long term strategy, go for wining

 

[cabert]

yeouch, not a lot of good city sites nearby, are there?

here's my dotmap, based on what I'd do:

I'd first settle on Green. You'll lose three tiles to deserts and mountains, but you pick up five floodplains. It would make a great science city.

green site is not bad, but not good either
One W is better, more overlapping with capital, but one less peak for one more hill is better + overlapping the pigs can be beneficial for a long time.
Alternate green isn't better. You don't want to settle on a grassland forest if there is a plains tile next to it.

If I were playing on my own level (Noble, since the AI improvements knocked me back down from prince), I'd be tempted to try and snag yellow first before our good friend Mehmed, but I'd let him build yellow instead, and take it from him. The AI has gotten a lot better at placing cities, so I'd trust him to build it where I'd build it. (Edit: If not, I'd raze what he build and build it later)

yellow city is really a good one.
A bit far away and needing culture though.
Waiting for the AI to settle on it would take away our only source of horses.
Not a big deal when you have elephants, but still...

I wouldn't try to pick up the stone/wheat combination myself. You'll get the stone anyways at your next border pop, and since you're not playing a philosophical leader, snagging the pyramids for a specialist economy isn't really worth it (but tempting with all those floodplains). Dark blue is a much better city site, which I'd settle it second.

stone is also good for
- walls
- great wall
- castles
- ankor wat
...
+ it's the best "nearby" city with both health and happiness (and we already have all the required techs except wheel currently researched).

Light blue is up next. Three food resources, a river, three dyes (one you'd have to settle on), some hills for production, and a lot of jungle to turn into grasslands makes it great for a GP farm or science city.

this is a good one, not just right now, but with IW and calendar it will be.
globe theater city IMHO.

Last but not least is the pink dot. Normally, I wouldn't settle this close to another city, but this position will give you access to three resources, including the wheat, and you can use this city to grow to towns on the plains of your capital.

if we don't settle on the stone, this is a good city.
If we do, settling on the hill one N is better (gold+wheat city would use permanently the wheat, so it's useless to overlap there)

It doesn't look like either of them snagged Hinduism, so I'd convert to Buddhism and try to spread it to them. It would also help you grow your borders earlier, since it'll spread along the rivers. Getting sailing would spread it along the coast as well.

we don't need to convert for spreading. But getting sailing and open borders would make a difference.

 

[aelf]

Don't delay grabbing the horses. Use your 2nd city to snag it asap. Don't let Mehmed take it.

I learnt my lesson in EMC3's first attempt. If there's no copper, grab horses. If there are no horses either, go for Archery. Waiting for IW may take too long. Beelining to IW and ignoring economic techs till after that might be too costly. In this situation, if you grab the horses, you can at least build chariots for protection. AFAIK barb spearmen can only spawn from barb cities, so you don't need to worry too much about them.

 

[voek]

Yes, like I said before, grab those horses! I can't understand why people underestimate the barbs. Construction is too late to deal with them and archery is a costly diversion of the tech tree. Fogbusting with warriors always is a risk and should only be done when you are not able to defend yourself anyway.

I would almost encourage to leave the horses alone to prove the wrath of the barbs..

 

[pax]

Round 2: To 2880 BC
At the start of the next turn, the research dialog appeared...

This startled me. When I settle in 4000 BC, I always pick a tech on that turn. Yes, the tech dialog shows up on 3960 (3980? Whichever... the next turn), but I figure that extra turn of research is crucial if I want to snag an early religion, or some other tech all the sooner. But I've never checked to make certain that I am actually getting an "extra" turn of research. Does anyone know one way or the other? Am I deluding myself (and, potentially, Sisiutil) by advocating for tech picking in 4000 BC?

 

[Softnum]

Yes, the tech dialog shows up on 3960 (3980? Whichever... the next turn), but I figure that extra turn of research is crucial if I want to snag an early religion, or some other tech all the sooner. But I've never checked to make certain that I am actually getting an "extra" turn of research. Does anyone know one way or the other? Am I deluding myself (and, potentially, Sisiutil) by advocating for tech picking in 4000 BC?

You actually don't loose any research. The beaker or whatever you would get goes into it as soon as you pick it. Note that there is some solid green in the bar if you wait till 3960 and select a tech.

 

[Softnum]

Let me ask a newbie question here...
You guys are talking about settling right on the stone. Well, If it's done, we won't have access to it, right?
If that is true, the stone will be gone for good, or if we want we may have to gift that city away and raze it (or something like that) to build a quarry there?

You get access to the resource, but it doesn't provide your City the same that the improved tile would. It's only +1 whatever.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

This startled me. When I settle in 4000 BC, I always pick a tech on that turn. Yes, the tech dialog shows up on 3960 (3980? Whichever... the next turn), but I figure that extra turn of research is crucial if I want to snag an early religion, or some other tech all the sooner. But I've never checked to make certain that I am actually getting an "extra" turn of research. Does anyone know one way or the other? Am I deluding myself (and, potentially, Sisiutil) by advocating for tech picking in 4000 BC?

Captain Studebaker managed to kick away two commerce by failing to select his research path prior to ending his first turn.

The beakers collected during the first turn are stored away, but you lose the bonus for having the pre-requisite technology. The city is generating 10 beakers per turn (palace, plus city tile, plus floodplain), and having any cities at all gives a 1 beaker bonus, for a raw total of 11. With Mysticism in hand, research is boosted by 20%, and the fractional beakers tossed (I believe - need to verify this), that should be 2 per turn.

You have to lose the research bonus, otherwise you could accumulate research without declaring which religious tech you were going to spend it on until you knew which one you could get.

If you research a technology with no pre-requisites (mining, for example) I'm almost certain choosing the research late doesn't cost anything. I suppose that means there's the potential for an exploit there (collect beakers while your opening scout gets a better look at the neighborhood, and maybe pops a few techs for you, then when you've got enough information to make your choice, throw all the beakers into the pot).

Disclaimer: I'm working from memory here, rather than verifying everything in the game or sdk. So softnum's answer may be more right than mine. If nobody has beaten me to it, I'll look into it tonight.

 

[Thomas G.]

Cities:
Get horses fast. You can pick them up with Darkpyre999's Green city, or something near that. Chariots mainly for defense. while you expand/prepare for war.
Stone you will get by capital pop, which will be fast enough due to holy city and all. So third city just needs to pick up gold. Any +happiness from gold will be very good for you. Fourth and fifth city will depend on what happens next 1000 years.

Now to worry about techs...Oracling towards construction could be a cool twist. You got elephants which makes construction even more of a killer warmongering tech. (I love to semi-beeline towards it just for catapults). This way you can ignore iron working altogether until you exhort it from you bleeding enemies. Mathematics comes on the way, which makes chopping better. (How about pre-chopping while researching math, then when its done you can finish the oracle by chops and grab Const.)
Oracle will also give you prophet points for your shrine.

Diplomacy - you do not need to revolt to buddhism to spread it. Im pretty sure. You can consider building a monestary in dehli, and one missionary. Once you get open borders you can send him off, and your target pet should convert fast enough. You could consider doing this semi-fast too if gunning for a quick war. But you do not need to convert until they do, happiness be damned. Diplomacy is king.

 

[Dagenham Dave]

7 pages for a handful of turns? This will be one massive thread.

 

[RFHolloway]

Pre chopping sounds good. Am I right that the fast workers can move to a forrest and chop on the same turn whereas normal workers can't?

 

[cabert]

Pre chopping sounds good. Am I right that the fast workers can move to a forrest and chop on the same turn whereas normal workers can't?

yes but only on plains/grassland forest

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

In terms of his "personality", I'm not sure what to expect--any insight there, gang? Is he a psycho like Monty, a religious nut like Isabella, a warmonger like Napoleon, or reasonable like Cyrus?

wioneo suggested that he's similar to Isabella. I haven't found that to be the case in my games. Brennus is the Isabella clone. If anything, he's worse than she is.

I've found Mehmed to be very similar to Cyrus and the other reasonable builder leaders. He's generally fairly advanced technologically (probably due to Organized), but he's usually not high on the power curve. Like Cyrus, he'll usually be in the top half of the scores but not #1 or #2.

Oh joy. Unless I can spread Buddhism to Japan, convert him, and run Mercantilism, Tokugawa is going to be about as useful to me as a snow-cone in a blizzard. The only time I ever saw friendly, tech-trading maven Mansa Musa destroy another civ, it was this guy--because Tokugawa is so obviously his antithesis. Mehmed may live longer just so I can go after Toku first and crush him like the bug he is.

Tokugawa is a tough one. I usually like to get rid of him either early or late. Early because he's not very useful as a trade ally, and he focuses pretty hard on his military, so he can be very dangerous as a neighbor. Late because if you do manage to keep him happy during the beginning of the game (fight a mutual enemy, for example), the gradual buildup of diplomatic points from religion, resource gifts, etc. can often turn him into an ally. At that point, he's so backward in technology that he can be a very safe friend.

(By the way, something about the graphics adjustments made in either Warlords or its patch makes the grid lines in world view more difficult to see on my computer. I don't know if anyone else has experienced anything like that, but if you have a solution, let me know.)

They didn't fix that? (sigh)

Someone mentioned lowering the graphic settings. That seems to work, but I don't like it. I like the high resolution graphics. That's a feature of the game. Why should I need to turn it off to re-enable a feature that Firaxis clearly broke. The workaround I use is "flying camera mode."

Open your CivilizationIV.ini file in an editor like Notepad.exe. This file would typically be something like C:\Documents and Settings\Me\My Documents\My Games\Warlords\CivilizationIV.ini. Find the "AllowFlying" setting and make sure it's 1. You should see something like this in the file.

; Allow Camera Flying
AllowFlying = 1

Now Ctrl-Alt-F will enable or disable flying camera mode. In this mode, the camera can be positioned anywhere (by moving the mouse), and for some reason the grid lines are drawn properly. This kind of reinforces the idea that the game engine is perfectly capable of drawing the lines properly and Firaxis broke it somehow.

The fact that any tiny mouse movement changes the camera position can make it hard to get everything in position for your screenshot. It's easy to get a crooked angle. What I generally do is line up the screenshot in regular mode, then toggle momentarily to flying camera mode just to take the picture, then toggle back out.

Interesting, no? Lots of good resources that are a little difficult to get into decent city sites.

You found 2 horses, but realistically only one of them is available to you for the time being. You better make sure you get it and fast. That should probably be a priority for city #2 and if not city #2 then definitely city #3.

As for how important Iron Working is, I think that's tied largely to how important an early war is. If you want to take out Mehmed or Tokugawa, then you better get yourself some metal, because horses aren't going to cut it for long.

On the other hand, if you're willing to kick back for a while and go after them a little later (but not a lot later!), then you can probably fight off the barbarians adequately with chariots. At some point they'll start coming with spearmen, but until then (anyone know how soon that happens?) you should be fine.

Worst case scenario you could harass Mehmed with horseback units just to keep him under control and then come at him hard with catapults and war elephants. Realistically though, I think you want to get on Iron Working fairly soon.