ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

I'll probably play the first round tonight: move the Warrior 1N, settle in place unless there's something thrilling up there, and research... what? Ah, the next item for discussion. Bronze Working, the old standby? Or Agriculture for the corn and then Animal Husbandry for horses?

Tough question: you'll see a lot more tiles when you settle, but if we look at those, then it's a spoiler. If you are committed to that move, play it and show the picture.

It looks to me as though the best timing is to grow to size three, start the worker, and whip it to finish. If you go with Bronze Working first, then the worker finishes before Agriculture, which isn't so great. I think you can actually improve on this a little bit by researching Agriculture first - because of the way overflow works, it looks to me as though (Agriculture + Bronze Working) finishes a turn earlier than (Bronze Working + Agriculture).

Of course, Bronzeworking first allows you to bring the worker on line by whipping at pop 2, and you can get the two mines built while waiting for Agriculture to roll in.
 
1 comerce is not worth as much as 1 extra food. it is not even close for the early game. Go farm the corn:p I would much rather cottage over the sugar than farming it as hanibal i financial. Making a mine(riverside) before you start touching the sugar for some early production. Same as farmed sugar for workers and setlers and shorter buildtime even. So imo farm the corn(you'll lose a worker turn :() then mine the riverside hills then either farm one sugar or just build another mine. The farm should prolly be replaced by a cottage or planatation later on though. Heck you can chop for the setler after building the mine if you want. Buildorder warior(hoepfully you'll have some foresed hills or forested plains title somewhere to make it possible to juggle titles so you end with the warrious out 1 turn after growing to size 2 without wasting any food towards growing.) then going worker - settler or even worker - worker setler if you want to chop to speed off stuff, though you might want to save forests for wonders later. This look like a VERY good burecracy site with multiple hills and a river and enough food. I agree with moving the warrior one north. Reaserch order ag - bw - ah - wheel sounds good to me. Then prolly pottery to cottage up your capital. I would prolly build another worker fourth if you can get him to do something. If not you'll better of building barracks while growing and build the worker when you grow a bit more as you need more workers to cottage stuff + help your next city. It might be better to get mysticism for monuments before wheel(or pottery) depending on the fatcross of your second city as you might need a monument to pop its borders. Your going for early war or expansion? if your not going for early war it might be better to just get another warrior than to get the barracks allready. Hannibal is charismatic so He is somewhat favoured in waring. To bad barracks dont give 4 experience anymore though.

@ NaZdReG. The fatcross of the current site is totaly amazing with loads of cottagable grassland + resources. Your sugested spot will leave the capital with way less riversidecottages(and with carismatci you can grow pretty fast). He would also lose a turn. It might just be me but I allways give the map generator the benefit of doubt for my capital for extra resources. Totaly offtopic i recently got a 5 seafood start that also poped iron in a plainhill(4 plains hills in the FT with 5 seafoods as ghandi yay!). So Hopefully situil will pop something nice like horses or bronze in the fatcross. Etiher way is prolly fine though. If you knnow you want the GL and go for a builder start then the coast sugestion might be better. The current fatcross got enough food to work mostly everything though so you can cottage to your hearts content.
 
I'd reckon settle on start location because it will eventually become a very good commerce city which is always useful combined with bureaucracy and an academy in the mid-game.
Techwise I'd go for agric and AH before BW because if you're looking at getting worker and settler you may as well go for farming and not whip too heavily at the start of the game.
This is based on my pre-game suggestion of going for HBR early on which involves locating and settling horses early.
 
So I usually play shadow games along with these ALC's to see how I fare. But for some reason I can't get the save to work, are you using a different patch? I logged on MP to make sure I have the most recent patch and I do. Any reason why the save wouldn't work? I am simply DLing it and putting it into my saves folder but it won't show when I pull the game up? Anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance and I am looking forward to another exciting ALC! :)
 
this looks like its going to help me a lot

oh these threads have helped me a TON!!!!!!!!!!!!! when this one gets too suspenseful and slow at times (and it will, naturally S has other things to do and can't play this one as fast as we'd like him too, and also he wants to wait for comments/advice at some stages), you can go back and read the older ones too, linked in his sig.

i'm still catching up on old ones myself and have learned a LOT. still working on how to apply some of what i've learned to my games, but someday. and the folks in these threads tend to be real helpful about answering questions so don't be shy.

and welcome to CFC!
 
So I usually play shadow games along with these ALC's to see how I fare. But for some reason I can't get the save to work, are you using a different patch? I logged on MP to make sure I have the most recent patch and I do. Any reason why the save wouldn't work? I am simply DLing it and putting it into my saves folder but it won't show when I pull the game up? Anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance and I am looking forward to another exciting ALC! :)
This is a Warlords game--do you have the expansion pack?
 
Hannibal's unique stuff suggests two different strategies. To use the spiffed harbor you want to found your capital on the coast so it can benefit from the sea trade. To use numidian cavalry you want to be inland to maximize your % of getting horses and to minimize the distance to the soon-to-be-conquered cities. Sisiutl's idea was more to focus on the second. In combination with the spectacular start site and the mediocre nearby coastal sites, I'd say settling in place is the way to go.
 
Round 1: 4000 BC to 2280 BC

I decided to play through most of our existing decision points until we reached a number of new ones.

First off, I sent the Warrior 1 tile due north. This is what he revealed:

ALC11_2280BC_01.jpg


Gold--very nice, an early luxury resource and an excellent boost to the economy and research. However, relocating the capital to take advantage of it just didn't seem appealing. So I decided to go with the general consensus and settle in place:

ALC11_2280BC_02.jpg


Which, as you can see, revealed... more sugar. Whoop-de-do. Oh well, as was pointed out previously, sugar beside a river is like flood plains, only better, and I have 3 riverside sugar tiles which will likely be cottaged, leaving two I could potentially plantation (1 for the bonus to my civ, 1 for trading). As I said, we'll see how the trading situation plays out and then decide what to do with the sugar tiles accordingly. For now, I decided to farm them.

The first build was a Warrior; my existing Warrior went further north along the coast, looking for a site for a good coastal city. He found one, and didn't have to go far:

ALC11_2280BC_03.jpg


The tribal village popped for 78 gold--nice, that will support deficit research for several turns.

Shortly after that, I finished researching my first tech:

ALC11_2280BC_04.jpg


Back at the capital, a few turns prior, I had moved my one citizen from the sugar tile to a forest tile to speed the Warrior's build time, so he would appear as soon as possible after the city grew (1 turn, as it turned out). Once the new citizen appeared, I still had enough hammers to finish the Warrior build and work 2 riverside sugar tiles with their extra food and commerce.

ALC11_2280BC_05.jpg


This shaved 1 turn off of Bronze Working, the next tech I started researching. For the early, cheap techs, you see, one extra coin can, indeed, sometimes make a difference.

I found another tribal village a little west of the first one; this one popped for a map. Meh. It did, however, reveal another tribal village further north:

ALC11_2280BC_06.jpg


I always have a tough time deciding whether to go after these, especially as there were unrevealed tiles north of Carthage that this Warrior was supposed to reveal, and this was a substantial detour from my usual plan of revealing tiles in a circular pattern around the capital--the goal being to reveal tiles where resources are/may appear, and to determine where good city sites are. And the AI often beats me to these distant, map-revealed huts.

Well, I decided to take a risk and sent the Warrior north to the hut. What the heck, eh? Besides, if I could deny the hut to the AI, so much the better.

Along the way, I received news that one of the early religions had been founded:

ALC11_2280BC_07.jpg


Turns out its founder is nearby, as you'll see, and is a somewhat surprising candidate for that role. Hinduism got founded on the last turn of the round; no idea where or who its founder is yet.

The Warrior reached the northern hut, after surviving a fight with a lion, and...

ALC11_2280BC_08.jpg


Hmm... well, it shaved about 6 turns, IIRC, off of BW for me, so I won't complain. I switched civics to Slavery and research to Animal Husbandry right away--going after horses for Hannibal's Unique Unit. Copper appeared 4S 3E of Carthage, right on the coast (the map is at the bottom of the post). Also, this is the last goody hut I've come across, so I think I made the right decision by going after it.

And then the neighbours started showing up. Oh, just wait until you see the rogue's gallery I have sharing my continent! Bachelor number one:

ALC11_2280BC_09.jpg


No, wait, it gets better!

ALC11_2280BC_11.jpg


That's two leaders with the aggressive trait. And the icing on the cake:

ALC11_2280BC_12.jpg


Yes, Tokugawa, our nemesis from the Asoka game, who is the unlikely founder of Buddhism here! So much for our peaceful plans. I think the Charismatic trait is going to be getting a heckuva workout in this game.

I finished Animal Husbandry along the way and a source of horses was revealed 7 tiles due north of Carthage--well within reach, though there's a fair bit of desert nearby. I then acquired my next tech on the recommended path:

ALC11_2280BC_13.jpg


And shortly thereafter, the next one:

ALC11_2280BC_14.jpg


...and this is where I stopped, because this is as far as we had taken our discussions. In addition, a substantial amount of the map has been revealed, and the first Settler has been completed on this very same turn and is awaiting orders in Carthage.

So here's a look at the map as revealed thus far:

ALC11_2280BC_15.jpg


So let's discuss decision points. Here are the ones that occurred to me--if you think of any others, by all means mention them.

Cities: City #1, I think, should nab those horses; I built a third Warrior who is positioned near that tile, fog-busting for the Settler's trek. I'm thinking of putting the city on the desert tile 1W of the rice. It would have the rice and horses in the first ring, which is comforting if we're not going after Stonehenge. It has two desert tiles in the fat cross, but will also claim the oasis and the incense. Nevertheless, irrigating that rice tile once I have civil service looks like it will be a royal pain. I could found the city one tile further north, 1E of the horses, so the oasis will irrigate the rice via the city, but then I trade three workable plains tiles (1 with a forest) for three unworkable peaks. Then again, how workable are the plains tiles if they can't be irrigated? I will appreciate your opinions here.

City #2 I think needs to go southeast to claim the copper. Too bad there's no seafood visible down there. The forested tile 1S of the sugar makes the most sense to me, as it will claim the wheat. That means it will require a border pop to claim the copper and wheat, though, which is why I prefer going after horse city first, since it's likely to have the horses in its initial ring.

City #3 should go on the northeast coast and claim the gold and clams. That's not an easy placement either--I'm thinking either 1S of the gold (which unfortunately would have three nearly-useless ocean tiles) or 1NE of it.

City Specialization: Of these first four cities I've spec'ed out, only Carthage is a decent commerce/science city; the others are more production-oriented. Well, that probably means they can pump out the military units while the capital focuses on civilian pursuits, so that's okay for the early game. I'm thinking copper/wheat city, with its good balance of food and production tiles, will be the main military (Heroic Epic/West Point) city. Other commerce cities will be located elsewhere, such as one along the river in the western jungle. But that's a ways off. It makes cottaging the capital a priority, though.

Research: I chose Horseback Riding (27 turns!) next for the unique unit, but I could switch without losing any of the research overflow. (Isn't wonderful how the timing at the end of this round turned out? It's almost as if I planned it!) Iron Working seems like another appealing priority if I want to claim any of the jungled area to my west. That marble tile which could also have rice or silk in its fat cross is appealing--it would really help build the Great Library in the capital, which may be the first wonder I go after in this game. Not a lot of forests for chopping are there?

In addition, we've delayed Mysticism, but we'll need it soon for Copper/Wheat city's border pop. Unless we want to gamble on Buddhism spreading there via the coast. We could go after Writing and put a Library there, but that seems like a waste of hammers; that doesn't look like a commerce/science city to me.

Diplomacy: Another item I should mention is that Buddhism has already spread to Carthage, and Tokugawa has already adopted it as his state religion! I haven't adopted it yet, but should I? Toku can be hard to win over, but a shared religion is what usually gives you a foot in the door.

Also, this obviously means that he must be connected to that river somehow. I'm fairly certain that he and Shaka are south of me, while you can see that Kublai is off to the northwest (see that wheat icon with the brown border?). I don't have nearly as much jungle directly south of me as I thought I would, so the AI will likely be expanding there before too long. A certain amount of REX is going to be important here so I can claim the city sites I want, and their resources.

Yes, I need to explore more of the southwest and south. I have two Warriors headed in that direction, including my first, how has now beaten off enough animals to obtain Woodsman II (with 4 XPs--the first of Charismatic's cheap promotions!).

Builds: I've put another Worker in the queue in Carthage, and thanks to farms on two riverside sugar tiles and the farmed corn, he'll be ready in only 6 turns. I've been criticized in previous ALC games for not having enough Workers, and I now have Pottery and should start plunking down cottages soon to reap the benefits of the Financial trait. With horses imminent, I'm loathe to build any more Warriors. However, the city will grow to size 4 in about that many turns, so maybe I should build a barracks while the city grows, then a Worker? Then again, as I mentioned above, it's looking like the capital will really specialize in commerce and research and leave the other initial cities to military, so I'm not sure that building a barracks in Carthage would be worthwhile.

Also, I haven't done any whipping yet, despite switching civics to Slavery, so I gotta start killing my citizens soon. (Sounds terrible, doesn't it? I tell ya, the life of a tyrant is not easy. It's lonely at the top, gang.)

So... lots to think and talk about! The saved game file is below.
 
And then the neighbours started showing up. Oh, just wait until you see the rogue's gallery I have sharing my continent!

...

So much for our peaceful plans. I think the Charismatic trait is going to be getting a heckuva workout in this game.
Having played the starting save through to the end, I was wondering how you'd react when you saw who the neighbours were. I have to admit the map gods are rarely that cruel to me.

Don't despair as far as your initial aims for the game are concerned though. I won a space race without going to war with any of the civs on this continent.
 
I wouldn't stretch too far to get in Tokugawa's good graces. He's hard to befriend, and he isn't particularly loyal, as can be seen in the Asoka ALC. Kublai Khan might be a better choice for this continent's niceynice.
 
Just a short post to say that's one heck of a bunch to have there! Peaceful just went out the window... I'd really try to get friendly to Toku though, you'll have enough on your hands with the rest of them.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking--though Buddhism could spread to them as well, and then I'd be earning "You declared war on our friend!" diplo demerits with the very touchy and hard-to-please Toku.

I'm beginning to think that with horses and copper nearby, and such an early and fast-moving UU, it might make sense to build the cities mentioned and then go into total war mode. I'd just be throwing more and more Numidian Cavalry at Kublai and Shaka to wipe them out early. Meanwhile I'd be courting Toku and hopefully tech trading with him, since he proved himself surprisingly adept at teching in the last game. The one distinct advantage I have is that I am, so far, the only Financial civ on the continent.

That plan would support the idea of researching HBR next, to get the UU on-line ASAP.

Shaka was the opponent I wanted to see the least because of his UU, which strikes me as an effective counter to my UU--the only one I would have liked seeing less would have been Alexander. BUT I should soon have Copper for Axemen, who should be able to eat Impis for breakfast. And if I can get to and sabotage his copper supply, well...
 
Follow-up: I just remembered that NC get a +50% bonus versus melee like Impis. Not quite equal to their +100 versus mounted, but still...

Any of the number-crunchers want to work out the various odds of NC versus Impis?
 
So let's discuss decision points. Here are the ones that occurred to me--if you think of any others, by all means mention them.

Cities: City #1, I think, should nab those horses; I built a third Warrior who is positioned near that tile, fog-busting for the Settler's trek. I'm thinking of putting the city on the desert tile 1W of the rice. It would have the rice and horses in the first ring, which is comforting if we're not going after Stonehenge. It has two desert tiles in the fat cross, but will also claim the oasis and the incense. Nevertheless, irrigating that rice tile once I have civil service looks like it will be a royal pain.

Not so bad, I think - you run an irrigation line north from the jungle tile along the river NE of Carthage, past the gold mine.


City #2 I think needs to go southeast to claim the copper. Too bad there's no seafood visible down there. The forested tile 1S of the sugar makes the most sense to me, as it will claim the wheat.

That's the right long term play, but I would give serious consideration to placing the city one north of the copper. Carthage has plenty of sugar cubes; I'd be tempted to let Coppertino share the corn (which it can use before the first border pop, thanks to overlap.

Putting Coppertino on the coast also gives you a chance to throw a workboat together there for the clams.



Diplomacy: do you think this collection of yahoos is going to land another religion? I think everybody here is going to end up Buddy Buddy.


Japan has to be the most tempting target right now - the best logistics, and it's likely to be a peach of a city too (I'm guessing also carved out of the jungle). But going up against protective archers in a city with a culture booster? Eee yuck.

Zululand looks like a non starter, as scissors cuts paper.

Which leaves Khan - effectively trying to claim the north, while allowing the others to share the south.
 
Any of the number-crunchers want to work out the various odds of NC versus Impis?

3:1 against is a losing bet.

Impi attacking Cavalry are 4.4 vs 3.33 (77.9%)

Cavalry attaching Impi are 5.0 vs 6.4 (23.9%)

Makes me think of the old SNL Commercial for "Bad Idea Jeans".

And don't forget that Impi can keep up with you.
 
On sugar plantations vs. cots on sugar: river commerce + sugar plantation commerce = 2c, kicking in the financial coin for 3c. Non-river sugar plantation is 1c, no financial boost. Riverside cot is 1+1=3c for Fin, but the cot will mature to hamlet for 2c kicking in the financial coin there even if not riverside. So I would definitelly plantate riverside sugar and cot non-river sugar instead. It's just one coint we're talking about, but hey - each coin counts.

Regarding horse city: The peaks aren't that bad. When you get a border pop (so the peaks are within your fat cross), you should have high visibility range northwards. I find that quite valuable. Also, the city's primary purpose is to grab horses. It might not be a great city like Carthage will (that food surplus + cottability leads to Oxford for sure), but working plains horse + oasis + rice (not irrigated) + two grass hills will bring in hammers. And hammers with horses means Numidian Cavalry. That city should be just fine early on, and even if it'll never be a great city, it has a role to play.

Grabbing copper: 1S of the sugar would get copper, sugar and wheat. Copper and wheat in third ring, so whipping a monument soon is needed. It's coastal (so Cothon) but has only 2 coastal tiles, with a peak and some hills. Powered by wheat and sugar it should be able to work hammer tiles to complement the Numidian Squad with some axes (and spears).

There's the question of the gold still though. That'd make for a fourth city: coastal, clam, gold. But that'd be the last city you'd be founding for quite a while I guess, putting you to 4 cities. One for horse, one for copper, one for gold, and all for the greatness of Carthage.

[edited out the number crunching - VoU did that and I forgot the aggressive C1 anyway]
 
my first thought...that has got to be the ugliest horse city i have ever seen!!!

"City #1, I think, should nab those horses; I built a third Warrior who is positioned near that tile, fog-busting for the Settler's trek. I'm thinking of putting the city on the desert tile 1W of the rice. It would have the rice and horses in the first ring, which is comforting if we're not going after Stonehenge. It has two desert tiles in the fat cross, but will also claim the oasis and the incense. Nevertheless, irrigating that rice tile once I have civil service looks like it will be a royal pain. I could found the city one tile further north, 1E of the horses, so the oasis will irrigate the rice via the city, but then I trade three workable plains tiles (1 with a forest) for three unworkable peaks. Then again, how workable are the plains tiles if they can't be irrigated?"

i think you're miscalculating BFCs there. if you're 1W of the rice, you have 2 grassland at the western corners of your BFC, they'll be self-supporting as soon as you get your border pop (also 2 plains tiles in the eastern corner, 1 with a forest). going north you keep what you thought you'd lose, but you be trading 2 grasslands, 2 plains, and a forested plains, to gain 4 peaks and 1 desert, YUCK. to me that's a no-brainer no matter how much you hate MMg workers.

copper city: i had to load the save to be sure, that wheat down south by city 2 is on a plains (maybe they always are i'd just not noticed), so you'd get the hammer but again run into the issue of it only feeding half of an extra citizen pre-CS. i do agree with going here before going for the gold, since we think 2 of your friends are down south, and since victories shows 6 rivals left i'd assume the other 2 civs are on the other continent.

gold city: i think (i go back and forth) that i prefer 1S of the gold rather than 1NE of it. you get 3 icky ocean but the nice spacing (lack of overlap) with your capital and horse city. we could reverse-backfill (i guess most people call that expand don't they?) north along the coastline as we get richer, and claim those hills.

i know that you know this, but dude go explore south! thanks.

too many mountains! all those desert tiles and a total of ONE floodplain visible so far? that is ridiculous!

i don't dot map like regular folks, i place signs all over the map ingame. i'll ponder some more and if i come up with anything i'll do it that way and screenie it for ya.
 
I very much dislike horse city. Grabs 3 resources, no argument there, but even if you were to irrigate every single tile you'd still only have 8 food surplus (excluding the resource & hill tiles for a moment) until the advent of Biology. Moreover, it would have only 6 semi-valuable tiles: the horse, the incense, the oasis, 2 grassland hills and 1 yucky desert hill.
It'd be next to worthless early on - a definite no-no for one of the first cities IMO - and can grow into a drag on your economy later on at best (keeping the cost of city maintenance and civics in mind) Even production would be mediocre.

I'd be inclined to leave it be and see whether horses are revealed to the south or west, and settle the copper instead in the mean time. 1s of Sugar as Elandal has suggested sounds good.

Alternatively, you could settle 2s of the horses. That location would still be rather useless early on but would make a fantastic production site once Biology comes around, with all those hills about. Would make a good space ladder location, for example, since it's just north of jungle and thus bound to be within the 30 degrees limit.
You'd miss out on the oasis and Incense though.
 
I think you're trying to hard to take advantage of the UU. While i understand that you want to leverage the numidain cavalry i think you'd have more success founding copper city, one south of sugar as u suggested and switch research to mysticism 4 the border pop.

I dont see any other religion being founded on this continent so u will probably have to attack someone before everyone turns buddhist which again makes me think you should found the copper city and axe rush someone. If you're going to do this then it might be a good idea going with Voice of Unreason's suggestion (1N of copper).
 
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